Talk:Green papaya salad/Archive 1

I'm deleting the repeated text at the bottom
Above... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Infinite zero00 (talk • contribs).

Why was it reverted?
I removed the needless repetition of the article (why is the main body of the article repeated?) and it was reverted. What the hell? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

I've moved the page here, with standard lower case for the second word. I changed to a more common romanisation while I was at it. Markalexander100 05:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

More miscellaneous additions- I changed the bit about som being archaic Thai for sour. Although it's true, it's probably more relevant that it's still the Isan word. Markalexander100 07:45, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

som tum vs som tam
markalexander - writing it up as som tam would be a mispronunciation and incorrect. same manner as tom yum and not tom yam. The sara um which makes up som tum is pronounced exactly that.


 * Not round my way. Mark1 19:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

correct pronunciation of som tum: http://www.thaitable.com/images/Thai/Recipes/Sounds/Green%20Papaya%20Salad.wav - someone decides if that sounds more like som tam or som tum.


 * More like som tam. Mark1 00:29, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Well if it is som tam not som tum, then we'll have to change tom yum to tom yam too, since it's the same Thai vowel sound. --Melanochromis 11:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

som tum is not Isan language
I've edited the part about Som Tum being the Isan term, as proper Isan langauge (Lao) term is tammakhoong. Som tum is the Thai name, which although used by Isan people, it is not pure nor proper Isan. Also, instead of the vowels ... what about the 't' in 'tam'. It is pronounced somewhere in between 'd' or 't'; 't' is not a good approximate. --[User:Nintala|Nintala]] 1<sup 21:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * "som" is Isan word for sour, isn't it? --Manop - TH (talk) 10:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Som" does mean sour in Isan and Thai, not sure about Lao as spoken in Laos. But the real name for the dish is tammakhoung. Isan people call it som tam, as that is the Thai word, that other language Isan people use at school and at the post office, but if you really want to endear yourself to Isan people, you will say 'euy! tammakhung jao saep ehlee der!' (identical to Lao) and not 'somtam aroy mak mak na khrup'. Bangkok people might not understand :-)

As for the article, it was in need of a revamp, so I've edited it a bit to look more polished and to give Lao and Isan culture preference where it is needed, such as Lao fonts and Lao/Isan pronunciations, but Thai kept because Westerners eat this at Thai restaurants as not too many Lao restaurants, at least here in US. If any Lao looks mispelt, I implore you to fix it, I'm Tai Lao from Isan, so better if Tai Lao from Laos fixes the spelling.

Nintala (talk) 07:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

IPA
(Thai: ส้มตำ, IPA: [sôm ɗam])

May I ask which IPA is used here for (Central) Thai? ตำ is written with to tao for which usually /t/ is used in IPA. If in the IPA to tao is written as /d/, how to write do dek in IPA? I'm used to read more frequently /sômtam/. The diacrit used here ɗam does indicate the siang samoe? More typical is to show siang samoe by no diacrit in IPA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gcpolerio (talk • contribs) 18:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Changed to . --Paul_012 (talk) 11:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge suggestion
Som tam, Tam mak hoong and Bok l'hong are national variations of the same dish. I don't think there is much to gain from having them as separate articles. Som tam seems to get the most google hits, but if others disagree with it as the article title, I suggest the neutral English term Papaya salad. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Merged
Som tam, Tam mak hoong and Bok l'hong merged here. Note that there is no need to give the local name of every ingredient since this is the English Wikipedia. Local names should only be given for the article subject itself. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Papaya salad Mike Cline (talk) 13:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Som tam → Papaya salad – Per WP:USEENGLISH. This name also has the advantage of not favouring any particular national variety, which seems to have been an issue with certain editors in the past. Paul_012 (talk) 19:21, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Problem the GB sources indicate that the description is Green papaya salad. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Another problem is that the article, as it is written now, doesn't only talk about papaya salad but about a whole range of Thai tam-style salads, not only the one using papaya. Hence the section "Basic ingredients". If rewritten to only describe papaya salad, an additional article would be needed for Thai tam-style salads. - Takeaway (talk) 00:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In ictu oculi: Pardon my ignorance, but what are you referring to as "GB sources"? I guess that's a valid alternative; Google hits show less than a magnitude in difference.
 * Takeaway: Well I think the article should be rewritten to give emphasis on the original papaya-based dish anyway. The derivatives can be kept in this article, under their own section, since they're basically variants of this same dish. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry GB = Google Books, GS = Google Scholar. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Paul_012: While browsing through the revision history(yours), I am confused as to why you removed all references or statement(s) which credits the papaya-salad as being a Lao invention, or of "Lao origin"? My family is originally from Nong Kai and every Isan person knows that Som Tam/Tum Som/Tam Mak Hoong/Bok Lahong etc., is a Lao invention. The statement about papaya salad "... is a Northeastern Thai / Lao / Cambodian spicy salad...", although, correct in the context but it is very inaccurate when we look at it from the history/origin of the dish. I would delete the "Northeastern Thai" and "Cambodian" from this sentence leaving only "Lao". At the very least, this won't add to the already muddied waters and confusion about this food and we'll give credits to the Lao for inventing it -- where the credit is due.--EsanBanna (talk) 07:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I removed the mentioned instance from the caption of the lead image, because it was inappropriate there. Feel free to restore the note on the dish's origins to the article text, preferably with a reliable source. Also, I don't think "invented" is the right word to use. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Origins
Since neither the papaya nor chillies existed in Southeast Asia before the Columbian Exchange, the dish is quite obviously of relatively recent origin. This column from Matichon, adapted from this book, covers the topic. It suggests that although tam som had existed for a long time, using ingredients such as mango and cucumbers, som tam made with papaya likely originated around the Early Rattanakosin period among native Chinese-Lao living near Bangkok. It would only later spread to Isan following the development of rail and road networks. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

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worst sentence with lots of information
I would like to nominate the following as the worst sentence with lots of information in Wikipedia: Thailand being one of the entry points where the Europeans have traded and where the papaya was introduced to mainland Southeast Asia have led historian Sujit Wongthes, to speculate wrongly that the variant of tam som using papaya as the main ingredient probably originated in the communities of ethnic Chinese–Lao settlers living in the Chao Phraya plains of what is now Central Thailand—where it became known as som tam—during the early Rattanakosin period (late 18th to early 19th centuries). --142.163.194.156 (talk) 14:30, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it be at all possible if you could propose how to fix this sentence then? I mean, are you aware that talkpages are for discussing how to improve their corresponding articles, and are WP:NOTAFORUM?--Mr Fink (talk) 15:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * As in the below section, I note that this jumbled mess is a result of POV-pushing edits trying to contradict sourced narratives which don't agree with some editor's POV. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

pls fix this page there is no proof that som tam is original in laos.
wow i smell laotian nationalist in this page Place of origin Laos, Northeastern Thailand (Isan) Originating from ethnic Lao people The green papaya salad was adapted from an ethnic Lao

''However, earliest historical records show that by mid-1500s, the Europeans were already exploring and trading with mainland Southeast Asia reaching as far as Vientiane and Luang Prabang, Laos. Some of the more notable Europeans who had travelled as far as Vientiane and Luang Prabang or wrote extensively about their experiences were Fernão Mendes Pinto (1542–1545),[6] Diogo Veloso and Blas Ruiz (1596), Geebard van Wusthof (1641),[7] Giovanni Filippo de Marini (1642–1648),[8] Jean-Baptiste Pallegoix (1830) and Henri Mouhot (1861). By the time Jean-Baptiste Pallegoix arrived as missionary to Bangkok; the papaya and chilli peppers was already fully integrated in the Lao territory and the Southeast Asian food culture as a whole.[9][10][11][12][13] Even Henri Mouhot (15 May 1826 – 10 November 1861), the French explorer and "discoverer" of Angkor Wat, during his trip to Luang Prabang, Laos also noted that the Laotians absolutely adores chili peppers.

''According to cultural anthropologist Penny Van Esterik, during the 50s and 60s, green papaya salad was rarely known among the Central Thais and could only be found where there are small gatherings of Lao or Northeasterners:

''In the 1950s and 1960s glutinous rice, roast chicken, larb, somtam (papaya salad), and other Lao favorites were available in Bangkok only around the boxing stadium where northeastern boxers and fans gathered to eat and drink before and after boxing matches. Lao food could also be found outside construction sites in mobile food carts providing construction workers from the northeast with their regional foods and beside gas stations serving long-distance bus drivers.

''At the conclusion of the Vietnam War, between 1975 and 1995, it was estimated that approximately 200,000 Lao refugees crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. Most stayed in the refugee camps while other moved to Bangkok looking for work.

''With the opening of the Mittraphap Road and the northeastern railway connecting central Thailand to her northern provinces not only brought jobs and development to the region. It also created a gateway for one of Thailand's biggest inter-regional migration during the economic boom of the 1980s as demands for labour increased. It was estimated that between 1980-1990 approximately 1.1 million northeasterners had moved from the Northeast to central Thailand and Bangkok. This, in turn, helped popularize and create an unprecedented demand for Lao food outside of Laos and the Northeast.

''Van Esterik also noted that, "[i]n attempting to include northeastern food in a standardized national cuisine, middle-class Bangkok selected and modified the taste of a few dishes—grilled chicken, somtam, larb—by reducing the chili peppers and increasing the sugar, and ignored other dishes such as fermented fish and insects." According professor Sirijit Sunanta[20] these dishes were then represented as "Thai food" when presented to the world.''  

no proof that som tam is original in laos at all. som tam is a thai word not isaan or laos ส้มตำ, isaan and laos called papaya Maak hoong ໝາກຫຸ່ງ (หมากหุ่ง), bak hoong (บักหุ่ง) บักหุ่ง, and Hoong ຫຸ່ງ (หุ่ง) derived from khmer lhong ល្ហុង (ลฺหุง) ល្ហុង  Lalalulilalia (talk) 19:12, 6 March 2021 (UTC) khao man som tam (original sour dish) som tam (original sour dish) som tam pu som tam pu pla ra is original in thai https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 "traditional recipe" https://www.sentangsedtee.com/featured/article_17702 (pls use google translate) "Som tam It was first introduced in central Thailand, then spread to Isaan. Isaan then swap word to tam som. laos call it tam maak hoong" https://www.facebook.com/ThaiToYou/videos/3239402739431176 Papaya is already exists since Ayutthaya period not Rattanakosin https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A48403.0001.001/1:11.9?rgn=div2;view=fulltext  Thus the Melons of Siam are not true Melons, but the Fruit of a Tree known in the Isles of America under the name of Papayer https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ In 1990, Bernard Maloney excavated an ancient pond in the Ayutthaya period palace and found old papaya pollen in it. (google translate) '' ในปี ค.ศ. 1990 นาย Bernard Maloney ได้ขุดค้นโบราณสถานสระน้ำในพระราชวังสมัยกรุงศรีอยุธยาและได้พบเกสรของมะละกอเก่าแก่อยู่ในสระนั้น อาจารย์จึงสรุปว่า มะละกอน่าจะเข้ามาตั้งแต่สมัยกรุงศรีอยุธยาแล้ว http://www.oocities.org/thai_archaeology/seasia/10/research11.html http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0uB8kLJPFFoJ:www.oocities.org/thai_archaeology/seasia/10/research11.html+&cd=1&hl=th&ct=clnk&gl=th The other interesting types are the American elements: Annona and Carica papaya. The Carica papaya pollen is present in one sample from the lower level of both cores.'' you can separate into som tam and tam maak hoong stop this nationalist bs. also laos people try to claim Tom yum, this need to be stopped immediately https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_yum&diff=prev&oldid=871880777 Lalalulilalia (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * This article has indeed been subject to nationalistic POV-pushing edits, especially to the history section, where irrelevant material has been inserted in attempts to contradict certain narratives. It now needs to be entirely rewritten, and I have tagged it as such. That said, splitting the article is not the way to go, as that would constitute a WP:POVFORK. It actually previously existed as separate articles, which were merged for that reason. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * @Paul 012 I agree, this needs a complete rewrite. —valereee (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

nav break

 * @Lalalulilalia, what would be really helpful would be articles directly about the controversy over the origins in extremely reliable sources -- preferably recent scholarship or a major newspaper or major magazine.
 * What does the linguistics have to do with anything?
 * https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 Silpa-Mag looks pretty good, is that Art & Culture? We can use that, although as it's a Thai publication and this is a nationalism issue, we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
 * The c.1700 source just shows that there were papayas in Thailand, proves nothing about this dish
 * https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ The101.World, what is that? Another Thai source for sure, but is it reliable?
 * The oocities source...that just looks like a report that again says there were papayas in Thailand? What does that prove about the origins of the dish?'
 * —valereee (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * what would be really helpful would be articles directly about the controversy over the origins in extremely reliable sources -- preferably recent scholarship or a major newspaper or major magazine.
 * sorry but it hard to find extremely reliable sources in english or in thai, only recently is about papaya (in thai language) https://www.ageconstory.com/2019/07/15/history-of-papaya/ "History of papaya" wrote by Dr. Sukkumnoed, Decharu, phd. https://research.ku.ac.th/forest/Person.aspx?id=400341. he said Spain is an importer of papaya to Southeast Asia, but other source claim Portugal is the leading papaya plant in Asia. Starting to grow in Malacca Before being planted in India And expand to other parts of Asia (google translate) สเปนเป็นผู้นำมะละกอเข้ามาเอเชียตะวันออกเฉียงใต้ แต่เอกสารอื่นๆ รายงานว่า โปรตุเกสเป็นผู้นำมะละกอเข้ามาปลูกในเอเชีย โดยเริ่มปลูกที่มะละกา ก่อนที่จะนำไปปลูกที่อินเดีย และขยายไปยังส่วนอื่นๆ ของเอเชีย
 * What does the linguistics have to do with anything?
 * evidence that papaya came to southern laos from khmer, just like papaya came to thailand from Malacca, we called papaya "malako".
 * The c.1700 source just shows that there were papayas in Thailand, proves nothing about this dish
 * but main ingredients is papaya, and papaya is not native to southeast asian, the dish som tam is sour and little spicy, but Tam maak hoong is spicy version of som tam. Laotian try to claim that bangkok is the one who swap word between Tam som to Som tam when Som tam and Tam som is really mean sour dish (sour pounding), but why Tam maak hoong is not sour only spicy? The traditional dish called Khao man som tam is similar to Som tam but eat with Coconut rice https://www.silpa-mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/3-6.jpg
 * https://www.the101.world/southern-papaya-salad/ The101.World, what is that? Another Thai source for sure, but is it reliable?
 * i don't know but it said southern thailand and myanmar have it own papaya salad and don't think it came from bangkok or isaan region. this article research in myanmar and ranong. Lo Ko Yok (ลอกอยอก, Lo Ko is short from of Papaya in southern thai language, Yok mean pound in southern thai language) https://www.google.com/search?q=%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%81&sxsrf=ALeKk02BJcdhWD6U7fvm-aH6nYk1kTrF9A:1615078274425&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYjNO2-5zvAhXYxDgGHZNwAZEQ_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=5y_YZwF5axBUIM and Myanmar "သင်္ဘောသီးသုပ် Thinbaw thi thoke ติงบอตีโตะป์" mean papaya salad. maybe we can have pace of origin to be Mainland Southeast Asia, this is common culture like Cendol. but need to move page to only Papaya salad because it's not unriped (Green) papaya.
 * https://www.silpa-mag.com/culture/article_5140 Silpa-Mag looks pretty good, is that Art & Culture? We can use that, although as it's a Thai publication and this is a nationalism issue, we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
 * i don't think silpa is nationalist source because it's said the dish came from chinese-lao in bangkok (said by chinese-lao Sujit Wongthes). silpa mag and this website https://www.sentangsedtee.com/featured/article_17702 belonging to the Matichon group
 * we'll have to use it very carefully and find Laotian sources, too.
 * i don't know about laotian sources but lao-isaan in facebook comment claim that "tam som maak hoong" is mention in lao literature. and he claim that laotian eat tam som maak hoong even before Simon de la Loubère visit siam วรรณคดีชาดกลาวเรื่องเสียวสวาดระบุถึง "ตำส้มหมากหุ่ง" พร้อมกับปลาแดกต่วงและซุบหมากมี่ ทั้งระบุถึง "เลน" คำว่าเลนส์พบหลักฐานอย่างน้อยสมัยพระยาสุริยวงศาธรรมิกราชมหาราช ตรงกับสมัยพระนารายณ์ เป็นวัตถุที่วัน วูสตอฟถวายเจ้าอาวาสวัดพระธาตุพนม คนลาวรู้จักกินตำหมากหุ่งก่อนสมัยลาลูแบร์ และเรียกหมากหุ่งมาแต่ไหนแต่ไร หมากหุ่งไม่ใช่พืชท้องถิ่น ดูจากภาษาเพราะหมากหุ่งไม่มีชื่อเฉพาะของตัวเอง บ้างจัดเป็นพวกละหุ่ง (หมากหุ่งกินหน่วย), แตง (หมากแตงต้น), มะระ (หมากละกอ), กล้วย (หมากก้วยเทบ) ฯลฯ https://www.facebook.com/notes/644930442881739/?comment_id=2173944942697445 this is the literature that he claim http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/handle/123456789/1854?locale-attribute=th founded in Surin province near Khmer, this is pdf file http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1854/fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y i don't read it yet, and i don't want to read it, because it gonna take long 294 pages. Lalalulilalia (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * i don't know about laotian sources but lao-isaan in facebook comment claim that "tam som maak hoong" is mention in lao literature. and he claim that laotian eat tam som maak hoong even before Simon de la Loubère visit siam วรรณคดีชาดกลาวเรื่องเสียวสวาดระบุถึง "ตำส้มหมากหุ่ง" พร้อมกับปลาแดกต่วงและซุบหมากมี่ ทั้งระบุถึง "เลน" คำว่าเลนส์พบหลักฐานอย่างน้อยสมัยพระยาสุริยวงศาธรรมิกราชมหาราช ตรงกับสมัยพระนารายณ์ เป็นวัตถุที่วัน วูสตอฟถวายเจ้าอาวาสวัดพระธาตุพนม คนลาวรู้จักกินตำหมากหุ่งก่อนสมัยลาลูแบร์ และเรียกหมากหุ่งมาแต่ไหนแต่ไร หมากหุ่งไม่ใช่พืชท้องถิ่น ดูจากภาษาเพราะหมากหุ่งไม่มีชื่อเฉพาะของตัวเอง บ้างจัดเป็นพวกละหุ่ง (หมากหุ่งกินหน่วย), แตง (หมากแตงต้น), มะระ (หมากละกอ), กล้วย (หมากก้วยเทบ) ฯลฯ https://www.facebook.com/notes/644930442881739/?comment_id=2173944942697445 this is the literature that he claim http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/handle/123456789/1854?locale-attribute=th founded in Surin province near Khmer, this is pdf file http://www.sure.su.ac.th/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/1854/fulltext.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y i don't read it yet, and i don't want to read it, because it gonna take long 294 pages. Lalalulilalia (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Costume
Hey, @Isan1985, let's discuss. This seems like trivia to me. Why are we even mentioning this, much less in the lead? Valereee (talk) 19:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree, it seems rather random and definitely much less notable than the salad being listed on CNN Go regardless of how subjective ranking foods may be. –Turaids (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Trivia or not, it is utterly irrelevant for the lead. Removed again. Maybe add a cultural references section if there's enough to be said. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:15, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * PS Removing the "most delicious foods" from the lead and properly adding mention in the article body wouldn't be a bad idea either. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:34, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hey everyone,
 * "The costume was designed by Saykeo Sittavong of Laos, who said of the piece, “Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish. It is sweet and sour, spicy and salty and it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food.”" (from the Laotian Times article).
 * I included that bit about the costume because they (the Lao) believed it to be important to their culture so much that they made a young girl, representing their country, wear a ridiculous papermache costume on international stage. And it is in the lead because the CNN GO (which favour a particular country over the other) is also the lead. It is not random and you don't get to determine what is more notable or important. To me, this is way more significance than CNN GO staffs picking their favourite food or from FB polls (@Valereee why didn't you delete that triva?).
 * If you guys want to move both trivas down to another section, then lets do it.
 * I believed the more information the better. I have no problem with making this article fair and balanced. Hence why I am telling/adding the Lao side to this article (I don't need to go into Thaification of Isan, my family is originally from Isan). You will not find me deleting anyone elses edits (unless it is vandalism), even when the source or information is of the fringe. I only try to expand and provide historical contexts as counter (see my edits/addition/responses to @Paul_012's Sujit's claims before it got vampirerized (Sujit has always been consider a fringed character and he is shunned by the Thais, other Thai historians, academics and medias. @Paul_012 Sujit speculated "that papaya salad PROBABLY came from...", provided no evidence, also a claim that only he made no one else does. Why is the current version of this article now treating Sujit's claim as authoritative/credible?) Sujit also claim that modern Thai people are actually Lao people mixed with Chinese. How many Thais, Thai historians, academia and medias pushing his main thesis and area of expertise as authoritative and credible?). @Turaid also for some reason, accused me of being bias (I am just reading through all the talks topics now. Dang dude, have you seen the earlier version of this article before I started editing?). Dude, the majority edits on here seem to favour Thailand. I only started editing (for fun) because I see the Lao/Laos contributions are being drown out by malicious edits, reversion and erased. Let's talk! Isan1985 (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you guys want to move both trivas down to another section, then lets do it.
 * I believed the more information the better. I have no problem with making this article fair and balanced. Hence why I am telling/adding the Lao side to this article (I don't need to go into Thaification of Isan, my family is originally from Isan). You will not find me deleting anyone elses edits (unless it is vandalism), even when the source or information is of the fringe. I only try to expand and provide historical contexts as counter (see my edits/addition/responses to @Paul_012's Sujit's claims before it got vampirerized (Sujit has always been consider a fringed character and he is shunned by the Thais, other Thai historians, academics and medias. @Paul_012 Sujit speculated "that papaya salad PROBABLY came from...", provided no evidence, also a claim that only he made no one else does. Why is the current version of this article now treating Sujit's claim as authoritative/credible?) Sujit also claim that modern Thai people are actually Lao people mixed with Chinese. How many Thais, Thai historians, academia and medias pushing his main thesis and area of expertise as authoritative and credible?). @Turaid also for some reason, accused me of being bias (I am just reading through all the talks topics now. Dang dude, have you seen the earlier version of this article before I started editing?). Dude, the majority edits on here seem to favour Thailand. I only started editing (for fun) because I see the Lao/Laos contributions are being drown out by malicious edits, reversion and erased. Let's talk! Isan1985 (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I believed the more information the better. I have no problem with making this article fair and balanced. Hence why I am telling/adding the Lao side to this article (I don't need to go into Thaification of Isan, my family is originally from Isan). You will not find me deleting anyone elses edits (unless it is vandalism), even when the source or information is of the fringe. I only try to expand and provide historical contexts as counter (see my edits/addition/responses to @Paul_012's Sujit's claims before it got vampirerized (Sujit has always been consider a fringed character and he is shunned by the Thais, other Thai historians, academics and medias. @Paul_012 Sujit speculated "that papaya salad PROBABLY came from...", provided no evidence, also a claim that only he made no one else does. Why is the current version of this article now treating Sujit's claim as authoritative/credible?) Sujit also claim that modern Thai people are actually Lao people mixed with Chinese. How many Thais, Thai historians, academia and medias pushing his main thesis and area of expertise as authoritative and credible?). @Turaid also for some reason, accused me of being bias (I am just reading through all the talks topics now. Dang dude, have you seen the earlier version of this article before I started editing?). Dude, the majority edits on here seem to favour Thailand. I only started editing (for fun) because I see the Lao/Laos contributions are being drown out by malicious edits, reversion and erased. Let's talk! Isan1985 (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I believed the more information the better. I have no problem with making this article fair and balanced. Hence why I am telling/adding the Lao side to this article (I don't need to go into Thaification of Isan, my family is originally from Isan). You will not find me deleting anyone elses edits (unless it is vandalism), even when the source or information is of the fringe. I only try to expand and provide historical contexts as counter (see my edits/addition/responses to @Paul_012's Sujit's claims before it got vampirerized (Sujit has always been consider a fringed character and he is shunned by the Thais, other Thai historians, academics and medias. @Paul_012 Sujit speculated "that papaya salad PROBABLY came from...", provided no evidence, also a claim that only he made no one else does. Why is the current version of this article now treating Sujit's claim as authoritative/credible?) Sujit also claim that modern Thai people are actually Lao people mixed with Chinese. How many Thais, Thai historians, academia and medias pushing his main thesis and area of expertise as authoritative and credible?). @Turaid also for some reason, accused me of being bias (I am just reading through all the talks topics now. Dang dude, have you seen the earlier version of this article before I started editing?). Dude, the majority edits on here seem to favour Thailand. I only started editing (for fun) because I see the Lao/Laos contributions are being drown out by malicious edits, reversion and erased. Let's talk! Isan1985 (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hey, @Isan1985! Wikipedia does not believe the more information the better. You can find information about that at WP:ONUS. Just because information is verifiable does not mean we include it. We include information that is important to understanding the subject of an article. In order to persuade people here, you'll need to show why that costume is important in understanding this food.
 * Please try to take the time to write as short and succinctly as possible. People won't read your arguments if you don't make them short. Valereee (talk) 17:12, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey @Valeree,
 * Thank you for the response and providing links to wikipedia’s policies. Sorry about my lengthy and illegible response. I wrote it on the fly while doing errands, ESL, still not very comfortable with Wikipedia + I was also pulling together all other discussion topics involving @Paul_012 and @Turaids as I was seeing most of the discussions for the first time (I am a noob).
 * @Valeree, unfortunately, you still did not answer my question. Why did you delete my post about papaya salad being Laos’ national costume under the reason of it being “trivial”, but not the CNN GO trivia? If trivias are grounds for automatic deletions, then why was the rule not applied equally?
 * If I had not noticed, the information would have disappeared and forgotten like most edits that goes against certain editors POV on here.
 * “We include information that is important to understanding the subject of an article. In order to persuade people here, you’ll need to show why that costume is important in understanding this food.”
 * Who do the rest of us have to convinced? @Valeree (you), @Paul_012 and @Turaids? Because I only see these individuals active and dictating what is acceptable/notatable/important.
 * I will take fault for not elaborating on the significance of the costume because I wanted to keep it short. Would you, then, be okay if I rewrite and expanded on my original post to say: “Papaya salad is considered one of Laos’ national dishes, and a strong representation of Lao cuisine; at Miss Grand International 2021, papaya salad was featured as Laos’ national costume to showcase Laotian culture”
 * Would that satisfied your requirements?
 * -        It is a national dish of Laos
 * -        It is representation of Lao food
 * -        It was a national costume of Laos in an internationally recognized competition with the express purpose of showcasing the most important parts of respective countries’ cultures, which includes national cuisine Isan1985 (talk) 20:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * It would be easier to discuss one thing at a time, but since you tried pinging me I might as well address it. It is clear that this article has become a culinary battleground between the Thais and Lao, each deleting the other's claim to the dish without providing any references themselves, and here you are doing exactly that yourself. Please keep in mind that your other contributions to the article as valuable as they may be do not exempt you from that. –Turaids (talk) 19:09, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Turaid, I mean no offense with my previous response when I @ you. However, you did accused me of being bias, even though, I feel like I was only trying to remain fair and true to the common and accepted knowledge about the origin (up until when Thailand standardized it national cuisine and the "Lao" was erased). I added a huge chunk of information the with countless historical sources as counter to @Paul_012 + Sujit’s claim that the dish probably came from central Thailand (hence some editor claimed Thailand as the place of origin) and made its way to Laos after the railroad was build in 1957(???). Not sure if you saw the rest of my edits and contributions thereafter but please have a look. I don’t know how much you know about the history of Laos, Isan and Thailand, but my family lived through Thaification, where we can’t be Lao anymore because word “Lao” became a derogatory word ( in Thailand), we were then  systematically replaced with “Isan” instead. Until recently none of the people affected in the region disputed that papaya salad is “Lao food”.  And, yes, I would agreed that it has become a battleground but that only happened when a Lao posted something that went against the controlled narrative of certain individuals here. I am actually late to this game. Isan1985 (talk) 20:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Isan1985, please read WP:WALLS. Discuss one thing at a time, and do not expect people to read walls of text to make sure they've addressed all your points. Come up with ONE POINT you'd like to make. Then when that discussion is over, you can move on to open a new discussion section to discuss your next point. Your posts here are all too long and contain huge amounts of extraneous info.
 * I didn't remove the CNN thing because to me it didn't strike me as trivia like the costume did. It's actually about the article subject. A costume does not provide the reader with information that helps them understand the dish. That's as far as I got with your wall of text. Valereee (talk) 13:21, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Also please stop accusing people of POV pushing. If you believe an editor is consistently pushing a pov on certain topics, take it (with diffs) to WP:NPOVN. Here is not the place. Just drop that altogether here; that'll also help you with shortening stuff. Here we talk about edits, not about editors. Valereee (talk) 13:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Valeree, I will drop it after this. I just want to know how the rules work and who gets to make the decision. Thank you for allowing me to inquire about the reason for your decision. PS: I am not being passive aggressive here so please don’t accused me of that. I understand now that you felt the way it was originally written was not clear and not well explained, and is not “about the article subject”. Isan1985 (talk) 14:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, @Isan1985. All content decisions are made at the article talk (here) by editors at that article, through a consensus process, which you can read more about at WP:CONSENSUS. If that can't be worked out, editors at the article take it through the process of dispute resolution, which you can read about at WP:DR.
 * Don't worry too much about any mistakes you make while learning. WP has a steep learning curve, and we try to be very patient with less experienced editors as long as they're clearly trying to learn and are assuming good faith of other editors, which you can read about at WP:AGF. (As you can see, there is a lot of policy to understand; for the 6M articles we have on the English Wikipedia (enwiki), there are 48M back-of-house pages like this one where we discuss things.) Valereee (talk) 15:20, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Me calling you biased does not necessarily imply you have bad intentions, but rather that what may seem obvious for someone from Isan might not be so obvious for others. If it is as you say there should be plenty of reliable sources attesting to the salad's Lao origins. A good start would be to begin providing these sources instead of trying to convince us by writing essays. –Turaids (talk) 13:43, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We're having two discussions in two different places. Three, actually, and they've gotten inextricably intertwined. I'm going to start two new discussions to try to keep the discussion of each subject all in one place. Valereee (talk) 16:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Gastronationalism
I'm thinking we need a section on gastronationalism. We need sources mentioning that the dish is a national dish of both Laos and Thailand and that both countries claim its origin, or something along those lines. I am going to be quite busy with another onwiki project for the foreseeable future, so if others can find such sources and post them here, with a quote pulled out, that would be helpful. I'll give myself a w-ping to circle back in a month. Valereee (talk) 13:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Valereee If you take issue with how it was originally written then are you good with my proposed rewrite?
 * Taken from a direct quote in the article:
 * “The costume was designed by Saykeo Sittavong of Laos, who said of the piece, “Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish. It is sweet and sour, spicy and salty and it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food.” https://laotiantimes.com/2021/12/01/miss-grand-laos-spices-up-pageant-with-papaya-salad-costume/
 * Rewrite: "Papaya salad is considered one of Laos’ national dishes, and a strong representation of Lao cuisine; at Miss Grand International, papaya salad was featured as Laos’ national costume to showcase Laotian culture"
 * Would that satisfied your requirements?
 * -        It is a national dish of Laos
 * -        It is representation of Lao food
 * -        It was a national costume of Laos in an internationally recognized competition with the express purpose of showcasing the most important parts of respective countries’ cultures, which includes national cuisine Isan1985 (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Connecting those three idea without a source that connected them would be synthesis, which you can read more about at WP:SYNTH, and which we don't do. That is, you can't yourself just assert that because it's the national dish, because it represents Lao food, and because there was a costume that there's some connection to be made between those three ideas that proves the costume is of great importance to readers' understanding of this subject.
 * And the person saying it is important, too, and the place it's being said. The designer talking about the importance of his own work in understanding this dish isn't going to work. Of course he thinks his own work is meaningful and important. Valereee (talk) 15:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I can’t say I was surprise by your response.
 * Fortunately, there is no WP:SYNTH violation because I personally did not connect the three idea together without “a source that connected them”.
 * From the source: “The costume was designed by Saykeo Sittavong of Laos, who said of the piece, “Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish. It is sweet and sour, spicy and salty and it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food.” https://laotiantimes.com/2021/12/01/miss-grand-laos-spices-up-pageant-with-papaya-salad-costume/
 * My suggestion: Papaya Salad is considered one of Laos’ national dishes (“Tammakhoung (Papaya Salad) is our national dish”), and a strong representation of Lao cuisine (“…it’s what first comes to mind when we talk about Lao food”), at Miss Grand International 2021, papaya salad was featured as Laos’ national costume to showcase Laotian culture.” –directly from one source (news article covering an international event/competition) and was even picked up by ASEAN Now. https://aseannow.com/topic/1241514-the-miss-grand-laos-pageant-is-spiced-up-with-a-papaya-salad-costume/ Isan1985 (talk) 21:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We shouldn’t favour one narrative over the other or control what others read. Let the readers decide if it is important or not. Papaya salad is consider Laos’ national cuisine and it is also a strong representation of Lao food and culture. This information has significance and should be shared. Similar to how you feel it is important that the readers know that the “Thai variation” was picked by CNN GO Staff as one of their favourite food.
 * Also why is being the lead designer of something makes one less credible? The designer was simply providing an explanation behind his team’s creation. Miss Grand is an internationally recognized competition displaying cultures and cuisines. His team would have had consultations with cultural experts and debated ideas for a national costume before hand. This is not one person siting in a janitor’s closet completely oblivious to the world and coming up with a Muay Thai fighter costume to represents Laos on an international stage. Isan1985 (talk) 21:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * TL;DR. Shorten by 75%. What is your most important point? You've got about 18 points here. Which one is the one most important to address? Valereee (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take a little time to try to explain to you what you are doing that isn't helping you.
 * Interesting. I can't say I was surprise by your response. Why's that? What exactly are you attributing to me? What is not surprising to you?
 * Nothing in Sittavong's quote says anything about the costume being important to understanding the dish.
 * What is ASEAN now? It looks like a forum. Not a reliable source, which you can read more about at WP:RS.
 * We don't favor one narrative over the other. We also don't let the readers decide if it is important. Editors decide what's important, via consensus, which I've linked you to above. Please read WP:ONUS again.
 * We don't care if This has significance and should be shared. Please read WP:RGW.
 * We don't consider an affiliated source to be a reliable source, so no, we don't use the designer's assessment of his work's importance. See WP:INDEPENDENT.
 * We also don't care whether he was a member of a team, or whether you believe that certainly they had consultations with cultural experts and debated ideas for a national costume before hand. We care what reliable independent sources are saying about it. Valereee (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We don't consider an affiliated source to be a reliable source, so no, we don't use the designer's assessment of his work's importance. See WP:INDEPENDENT.
 * We also don't care whether he was a member of a team, or whether you believe that certainly they had consultations with cultural experts and debated ideas for a national costume before hand. We care what reliable independent sources are saying about it. Valereee (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not currently interested in joining this discussion, but it's a basic fact that the dish originated with the Lao people and is considered their national dish. In the context of Thai cuisine, it's always associated with the Isan region and its Lao cultural roots. These should be uncontentious and should be mentioned in the lead.


 * Fighting over whether the article says the dish's geographical location of origin was "in Laos" is rather pointless, as it was documented from the early 19th century at the latest, before Laos or Thailand became established as modern countries with their current territories, and present-day Laos covers only a fraction of the historical Lao cultural sphere. I'd suggest removing all such mentions from the lead and infobox (which should only say "Lao people"). The question of the dish's exact origins and the issue of contention should be discussed in its own section, with sources that are actually dedicated to the dish's history, not mere off-hand mentions. I'm not fussed about whether to use Sujit as a reference; his was the only historical source available when I attempted to clean up the article back then, but others have since emerged. See some of the ones that Lalalulilalia suggested above. It's a bit unfortunate that much more Thai sources are available/accessible than Laotian, but that's a result of the comparative sizes of the countries' academia and media. --Paul_012 (talk) 01:39, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you Paul_012, you saved me! I was about to post a response to Valereee that would have escalated very quickly. Anyway, I agree with your suggestion regarding the lead information, infobox, and a separate section dedicated to the dish's possible exact origins and issue of contention. Isan1985 (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I think Paul was answering the original question in this section: Is this gastronationalism, and do we need a section?
 * What we were discussing here (because you'd brought it into this section too) was the costume. So you might as well go ahead and post your response to me. It takes two to escalate, and I am completely dispassionate here so there's little chance of that. Valereee (talk) 11:31, 19 August 2022 (UTC)