Talk:Gregory IV of Athens

Falsification of history
Some Albanians are using Wikipedia to recreate History.

A simple method they use is the albanization of names. Everybody can be "born as (albanized name) ... albanian". Typical example is the article "Skanderbeg" (who appears 4-5 times in the List of Albanians). His original biographers Marin Barleti and Franciscus Blancus (see Frang Bardhi call him with his Latin-Greek name: "Georgius Castriotus" but the modern albanian history-twisters  declare him as "Gjergj Kastrioti" and constantly erase any other name. Of course, they don't give any original reference proving that this Byzantine half-Serbian man was Albanian.

This method is absurd and against the ethical code of Wikipedia and the moderators are requested to deal with it. Bishop Gregorios Argyrokastritis was 100% Greek, born in the Greek city of Argyrokastro of Northern Epirus as his name tells. After 1821 he participated in the Greek Revolution against the Ottoman Empire. There is not one chance in a million that an Albanian could become Archbishop or Athens, as the Albanians were collaborators and mercenaries of the Ottomans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 09:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The erased as troll is correct. Argyrokastritis was a Greek hero of the 1821 revolution against the Ottoman occupation. --Euzen (talk) 09:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Grigor Gjirokastriti isn't Kyriakoulis Argyrokastritis.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course is not the same. I am not sure if Gr. Arg. was a fighter, but am sure that he was active in organizing the Revolution in Euboia and member of the Filiki Eteria. Btw, notice that two persons with the same name are (according to wikipedia) called "albanian" and "greek" respectively. Notice also that this surname comes from the Greek spelling "Argyrokastro" but not from the Albanian "Gjirokaster". Searching the Google with "Argyrokastritis" or "Αργυροκαστρίτης" will produce several Greek persons and companies, some of them known, such as one minor politician and one writer.--Euzen (talk) 10:40, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I added lots of information from the encyclopedia. The writer of the article also refers to his correspondence with Midat Frasari who was Albanian diplomat in Athens. Frasari was asking information saying that he could not find anything in Albania. It seems that Gregory is important for modern Albanian philoogy. There are some more works on his life in Greek language but I don't think the article needs more.

The article's claim that Gregory is Albanian is really contradicting the rest of the article and looks odd, but I did not delete it as some Albanian fellows may be offended. I leave others to decide on that. Just for curiosity, I would like to know if there are Albanian authors who claim that Gregory was Albanian in ethnicity.--Euzen (talk) 21:42, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd rather be kind to the historical accuracy. The only connection of Gregory with Albanian ethnicity is that he was speaking Albanian as well as Greek and possibly Turkish. That's why Frasari could not find any information on him.

Is this some kind of joke? What's going on here? Snippet abuse all over again. I don't see anything about Gregory IV being Albanian in the snippet, nor is there a way of knowing that the "Gregory bishop of Evoia" is the subject of this article. Athenean (talk) 19:49, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow! This revertion by ZjarriRrethuesis on 19 Oct is the fastest ever (4 mins) by albanians patrolling their babies. View history. The previous record was 7 mins by user Aigest in reverting the Serbian nationality of Castrioti's mother, on 12 Oct (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&action=history).

I am of the opinion to leave Gregory IV as "albanian" and creating another article like "pseudo-albanians", or something.--Euzen (talk) 07:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Orthodox Albanians
''Kur në vitin 1823 Vangjel Meksi vdiq, punën e tij e vazhdoi një tjetër klerik shqiptar, shumë i ditur dhe i nderuar, peshkop Grigor Gjirokastriti, i cili e korrigjoi, e redaktoi dhe e botoi përkthimin e tij. Botimi i Ungjillit të Matheut pa dritë në Korfuz në vitin 1824 dhe në vitin 1827, po në Korfuz, u botua e tërë Dhiata e Re. Ky botim pati një përhapje të madhe tek ortodoksët e Shqipërisë, klerikë dhe laikë dhe tek arvanitasit e Greqisë. Kërkesa për këtë botim pati aq shumë, sa që u ribotua përsëri në vitin 1858 në Athinë, ndonëse botimi i dytë pati disa lajthitje.22 Përkthimi është në labërisht dhe nga pikëpamja e interpretimit ortodoks është mjaft i saktë, gjë që tregon kujdesin e madh dhe përgatitjen e mirë teologjike të peshkopit mbikëqyrës. Më vonë episkopin e ditur Grigor e shohim të emëruar Mitropolit të Athinës.23 Duhet përmendur gjithashtu, se Vangjel Meksi ka bërë edhe përkthime të tjera. Po ashtu kemi dëshmi se peshkop Grigor Gjirokastriti përktheu edhe disa broshura të tjera fetare.''

''shkruar nga Mitropoliti i Korçës, Hirësi Joan Pelushi, botuar në revistën “Tempulli” nr. 2 (revistë periodike kulturore), Korçë, 2000.''

In English(my translation)

''When Vangjel Meksi died in 1823, his work was continued by another Albanian cleric, very wise and honored, bishop Grigor Gjirokastriti, which corrected, edited and published his translation. The Saint Mathew Bible was published in Corfu in 1824 and in 1827 again in Corfu was published the New Testament. This publication had a great dispersion among the Albanian Orthodoxes and in Arvanit population in Greece. The request for this book was so great that it was republished in 1858 in Athens, though the second publication had some errors. The translation is in Labërisht((part of Tosk Albanian dialects, my explanation (sic))) and from the point of view of orthodox interpretation is very exact, which shows the great care and good preparation of the overseeing bishop. Later we see the bishop Grigor appointed as Archbishop of Athens. It should be mentioned also that Vangjel Meksi has done other translations. Also we have testimonies that bishop Grigor Gjirokastriti translated other religious brochures.''

''Written by Joan Pelushi (Archbishop of Korçë), published in the magazine “Tempulli” nr. 2 (periodical cultural magazine), Korçë, 2000'' linkORTHODOXALBANIA.ORG

Among Albanian Orthodoxes (but not only) and in Albanian history he is known as Grigor Gjirokastriti. I don't see the point of much debate. Aigest (talk) 14:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Now you are talking. There is a diference between "is born as" and "is known as". Let's see now references that he was feeling Albanian.

Aegist: You need to find a reference with his born name in case he was born as 'Grigor' (per orthodox tradition I doubt about it). I assume you mean he is 'also known'.Alexikoua (talk) 15:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Adding that he was also known as Grigor Gjirokastriti isn't correct, since almost all the sources used that name. The title Cplakidas redirected to on the other hand is used by no sources. He was known for his work with Meksi, not for being bishop of Athens for some months.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * www.orthodoxalbania.org is a self-published website, definitely not a reliable source. And so what if he known as "Grigor Gjirokastriti" by Albanians? Alexander the Great is known as Aleksandar Makedonski in RoM, but we don't include that in the article.  And yes, 18th century Moscopole was a center of Greek culture, repellent as the idea may seem to some. Athenean (talk) 01:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * www.orthodoxalbania.org is the official website of the Orthodox Church of Albania, which elected to publish an article that was submitted in a symposium. The article was written by Joan Pelushi, a bishop and highly reliable source. Being an Albanian, it is normal that we say the Albanian name in the article, Grigor Gjirokastriti. Thanks! Nxenes i dalluar (talk) 04:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You obviously have no idea what a reliable source is. www.orthodoxalbania.org is not a scholarly publication, there is no editorial oversight whatsoever, in other words, they can write whatever they want.  And you are the same user as User:Bardyllis and User:Whatelsetodo, aren't you? Athenean (talk) 07:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Stop personal attacks Athenean and stick to the facts which are:
 * 1) The article is on a clerical whom (apart other things) has translated and published the New Testament and other religious texts in Albanian language. His translation was used by orthodox Albanians and is still being studied by scholars interested in Albanian philology.
 * 2) Joan Pelushi is the Archbishop of Korçë, and before being elected to Archbishop, he was the dean of Academy of Theology "Resurrection of Christ" in Durrës so a competent scholar on religious texts and figures.
 * 3) www.orthodoxalbania.org is the official website of the Orthodox Church of Albania, which has online version of the article "A short historical survey over religious text translations in Orthodox Church in Albania" written by Joan Pelushi (Archbishop of Korçë), published in the magazine “Tempulli” nr. 2 (periodical cultural magazine), Korçë, 2000 Aigest (talk) 08:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Euzen:Mann(University of London) is rs and if Euzen deletes one more time him being Albanian, while making personal attacks against Albanians I'll ask for admin intervention.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Some intervention is really needed. Albanian and a third hand source say he is Albanian, Greek sources say he is Greek, and Gregory himself says and signs that he is Greek. I propese mediation. If you agree state here please. And keep you savoir-vivre instructions for you compatriot who ordered us to "be careful". Threatens are not acceptable.--Euzen (talk) 09:57, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is it stated that he's a Greek or by Greek sources that he's a Greek?-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 10:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

In his biography compiled by Kourilas (ref. No 9). If you are aware of any other biography let me know. The same author lists many bishops who came from the Greek community of Argyrokastro, but they can wait to be included in a WP article. The british source you are boasting about is not a biography and possibly uses term "Albanian" in geographic sense, as he doesn't care about his nationality and Argyrokastro today is in Albania. At Gregory's time Argyrokastro was in a multinational empire with no internal borders. Also, there is his letter to the Greek Parliament. Time to end this edit war (and move to other articles :) ). --Euzen (talk) 10:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't make WP:OR deductions about what Albanian means or about what people mean in their own letters. Btw Karađorđe Petrović was also a member of FE Euzen and he wasn't Greek too.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's see the funny side of this comment. Zjari's deduction on what Greek means:

"At that time as you already know Greek didn't mean ethnic Greek but Orthodox from the former Byzantine Empire.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)", here: when Mercurio Bua has to be Albanian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs)

Gregory IV of Athens ...was ALBANIAN? WHAT??? CORRECT IT! HE WAS PURE GREEK! ALBANIA ESTABLISHED 1912...
THIS IS A FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY. NOT 1 IN ZILLION CANT BE AN ALBANIAN...ARCHBISHOP OF ATHNENS. GREGORIOS WAS BORN IN THE GREEK CITY OF ARGYROKASTRON IN NORTH EPIRUS....THATS WHY HIS NAME IS ARGYROKASTRITIS....EVEN TODAY IN ARGYROKASTRON THE MAJOR POPULATION ARE GREEKS. THE ALBANIAN TRANSLATION OF THE NAME, IS A FALSIFICATION OF HISTORY. CORRECT IT NOW AND DELETE HIM FROM THE FAMOUS ALBANIANS AND ADD HIM TO THE FAMOUS GREEKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.212.55.83 (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no. Read WP:OR. Island Monkey talk the talk 21:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

LETS SEE ONE MORE GREEK BISHOP....FROM the OLD GREEK CITY ARGYROKASTRON (modern day Gjirokastër in Albania)
THIS IS FROM WIKI Pages in category "Greek bishops"......''Bishop Vasileios of Dryinoupolis (1858-1936) (born Vasileios Papachristou, Greek: Βασίλειος Παπαχρήστου) was one of the most important religious figures of the Greek Orthodox church in Northern Epirus of his time and member of the provisional Government of Northern Epirus (1914). Vasileios was born in the village of Labove e Kryqit (Labove of the Cross) in Gjirokastër district and became prominent figure, as bishop of Dryinoupolis (a region incorporating modern southwest Albania, centered in Gjirokastër). In February 1914 Vasileios together participated in the declaration of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus and signed the declaration of Autonomy as a member of the provisional Government under Georgios Christakis-Zografos. In the following months he was named Minister of Justice and Religion.[1] When, in September 1916, Italian troops entered the region, their first actions were to close all Greek schools in the region and to expel Vasileios to Greece. He later protested to the Greek Prime Minister. Eleftherios Venizelos, against his unprovoked expulsion.''

WELL...EXCEPT GREGORY IV OF ATHENS....I CAN SEE ONE MORE GREEK BISHOP FROM THE EX-GREEK ARGYROKASTON TOWN AND (modern southwest Albania, centered in Gjirokastër)....CAN ANYBODY ELSE SEE THE GREEKS FROM ARGYROKASTRON? EVEN THE NAME OF THIS GREEK TOWN...MEANS NOTHING TO ALBANIANS...BUT FOR GREEKS MEANS THE SILVER CASTLE...YOU KNOW...ARGYRO=SILVER AND KASTRO=CASTLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.212.55.83 (talk) 22:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's see what Gregory wrote about himself.
Μόλις τέλος πάντων, Θεία χείρι, διεσώθην από τας αιμοβόρους χείρας των απανθρώπων τυρράνων του έθνους μας...η Θεία πρόνοια...ένευσε να με λυτρώση από τας χείρας των διωκτών της πίστεως, της τιμής και της ελευθερίας του Γένους μας.

These are words written by Gregory himself and are part of a letter that he send to the authorities of the Greek revolutionary government. Now I will give you the translation;

At last, thanks to God's help (literally thanks to God's hand) I was saved from the bloody hands of the cruel tyrants of our NATION...Divine providence...agreed for my salvation from the hands of the prosecutors of our faith, our honour and our GENOS' (RACE) freedom.

The whole letter was published in the "Archives of the National Resurrection", edited by the Greek Parliament, Athens, 1867, reprinted by the Library of the Greek Parliament, 1971, vol. 1, p. 236. The book is available here.

I frankly believe that Gregorios made, by his own words, clear to everyone that he considered himself as Greek. Pavlos1988 (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)