Talk:Grendel (novel)

Untitled
I apologize for any typos or factual errors in this article. I Just wanted to get this out there for peer-review. Donbas 07:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Composition of Beowulf Not Necessarily 8th Century
The only criticism I have of your article is that you state that the plot of Grendel is derived from "an 8th century epic poem". The date of the composition of Beowulf has not been conclusively established. The possibilities that have been suggested for its composition range from about 700 to 1000 A.D. Therefore I think it would improve the quality of the article if your statement on Beowulf reflected this lack of certainty over its composition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.134.156.129 (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

'Main Themes' Section Needed Work
I did a major overhaul of the "Main Themes" section. I was having trouble following what the previous editor put in there, and it was really messy and incomplete. None of the ideas seemed fleshed-out at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zdettwyl (talk • contribs) 26 February 2007

Literary Connections
The premise of Grendel seems very similar to Jorge Luis Borges' story The House of Asterion (1947), where the story of the Minotaur (anticipating Theseus) is told through the eyes of the unexpectedly philosophical monster. Coincidence or inspiration? Snarkibartfast 15:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The two stories have nothing to do with one another, so I wouldn't even believe in a minor coincidence just because both stories are told from the point of view of the "Monster." parallel literature is a popular enough genre.  María ( habla  con migo ) 17:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that it could plausibly be a coincidence (and I have found nothing that substantiates a connection), but I think the two stories are more similar than can be explained merely by reference to parallel literature or revisionistic versions of legends. Mostly I mean the philosophical component, which is predominant in both works. As for the objection that the source material is unrelated, Borges provides an alternative, hypothetical version of his story within The Zahir, where the Borges-character describes a story he has written from the point of view of Fafnir. This story must either be an early draft or a fictionalized version of "The House of Asterion", or at least another exploration of the same recurring idea. The link between the dragon Fafnir and Beowulf and Grendel should need no elaboration. In any case it's an interesting parallel. Would probably make a good term paper for someone. Snarkibartfast 19:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:JohnGardner Grendel.jpg
Image:JohnGardner Grendel.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:JohnGardner Grendel 1st.jpg
Image:JohnGardner Grendel 1st.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Original Research
This material needs to be sourced before restoring to article. -Classicfilms 18:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

==

Main themes
The main themes of Grendel are moral contradiction, a struggle with nihilism, the separation of the Self from the rest of the universe, and the desire for, and rejection of, human companionship.

Grendel observes and critiques human moral philosophy primarily in his struggle to understand the Shaper's historical revisionism. The Shaper, King Hrothgar's court musician, relates stories to his audience that, from Grendel's perspective, reshape events towards the goals of imbuing meaning and giving historical figures moral authority. Grendel, having directly observed the conflicts the Shaper describes, is angered that the musician, as he sees it, is imbuing meaning and moral authority where there was none before, particularly in stories involving King Hrothgar.

Grendel's struggle with nihilism is expressed most frequently in his inner monologue, specifically in the way that he observes the world around him. The image of Hrothgar's kingdom, for example, is alternately described by Grendel as "jewels... in a dead king's grave", "... a dog dying of mange", and "diamonds on a velvet cloak". The tone of each description indicates a different degree to which Grendel submits to the idea that existence has innate, positive meaning and that the humans possess moral authority. The more fanciful the imagery becomes, the more Grendel chastizes himself for believing the Shaper's interpretation of historical events.

The separation of Self from Other is primarily expressed in Grendel's early belief that he creates the universe, moment to moment, by observing it. He notes that, to be the observer, he must somehow be separate from that which he observes, and this causes him to suffer bouts of anxiety. The separation he feels is further explored in his attempts to join King Hrothgar and his people as a friend: when his overture is rejected by the humans, who see it as an attack, Grendel refuses to ever approach the humans as their friend ever again. When the Dragon makes him invulnerable to all human weapons (but apparently not to brute force that causes internal damage, as occurs in his fight with Beowulf), Grendel's separation is complete: effectively protected from human attacks, Grendel has no reason to fear, and thus respect, the human community. His total separation leads to his "stupid war" with the humans, and his eventual death at the hands of Beowulf.

The notion of life's inherent meaning is explored positively by Unferth and Beowulf, but in different capacities. Unferth embraces the heroic ideal expressed by the Shaper: he attempts to personally defeat Grendel so that his status as a murderer (after Beowulf comes to Hrothgar's kingdom, the issue is discussed openly) can be expunged. However, his failure to prevent Grendel's murderous raids leads to repeated suicidal behavior in the form of disguising himself as an animal or an old woman in order to get close to Grendel and engage with him in some manner. Beowulf, seen by Grendel as insane, describes the original saga's swimming contest with Breca, complete with undersea monsters, in a manner that suggests that he believes it at face value.

Incidentally, Beowulf is described as beardless, and with upturned eyes "like a fish"; these details may be inconsequential, or they may suggest that this somewhat fishlike being really could perform such feats, or it may place him in direct opposition to the wrinkly-eyed, hairy King Hrothgar, who rejects the Shaper's idealism as a result of the strain of ruling the kingdom.

The fight between Beowulf and Grendel could possibly suggest that embracing meaningful existence leads to success, or, if Grendel's assessment that only his clumsiness cost him the battle is correct, the author could actually be agreeing with his protagonist, thus deciding that the battle was simply power against power and the interaction of circumstantial factors. However, the fact that the near-invulnerable, but foolhardy, Grendel is ultimately defeated in a contest of arms could well be an affirmation of nihilism as well. The last line of dialogue in the book makes this assessment difficult, however: when Grendel says, "Grendel's had an accident. So may you all,", it is possible that he is wishing misfortune and death upon his observers, or that, alternately, he is stating what he sees as a fact: it is possible that any of the animals who watch him die could meet their own ends because of cruel circumstance.

Sartre Revision
I changed the following text "nihilism of Sartre, whose philosophy Gardner despised" to "philosophy of Sartre, which Gardener despised."

Not only is Sartre not considered a nihilist by many, but he explicitly denied the accusation himself. Calling him a nihilist off-hand is POV at best; I believe the new language still gets the same point across while sounding more neutral on its stance toward each author. 76.252.250.191 04:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)MOB

The link to "Solipsism"
... is very much misguiding. Grendel did not literally conclude that everything not himself was non-existant; this statement rather highlighted Grendel's newfound ability to sort out the chaos before him. For now, I will simply undo the link. In the future, I may reword the sentence to better suit the intended meaning. Singbirdofprey (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Changes made, though I forgot to log in. Singbirdofprey (talk) 20:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Copyright problem
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Letter to Susie West and students
I wonder if any secondary sources mention this letter? To Susie West and students regarding Grendel WhisperToMe (talk) 18:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.genesee.edu/gcc/gardner/perdue.htm - http://www.webcitation.org/6QTi4vlod