Talk:Grenfell Tower fire/Archive 5

Fraudulent claims
You have no section regarding the mass of fraudulent compensation claims the fire attracted, which is perfectly relevant.

such as

Elaine Douglas and Tommy Brooks, who are Jamaican, falsely claimed more than £100,000 in accommodation and pre-paid credit cards before staff at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea realised the flat they claimed to live in did not exist.

Joyce Msokeri, who falsely claimed to have been a resident in the Grenfell Tower fire. She posed as a survivor in a bid to claim hundreds of thousands of pounds, and that her husband and sister-in-law had perished. In fact she was single and living miles away.

Anh Nhu Nguyen, 52, of Beckenham, south-east London, was also jailed earlier this year for 21 months for pretending he lost family members in the blaze. He claimed his wife and son were killed in the June 14 disaster and was photographed shaking the Prince of Wales' hand when he met survivors at a relief centre.

Abolaji Onafuye, 54, said Zainab Deen, 32, who tragically died alongside her two-year-old son Jeremiah in the blaze last June, was his sister. But his account was 'impossible' because he was born a year before Ms Deen's parents were.

Mohammad Gamoota, 31, told council officials that he had been living with his father on the 24th floor when the fire ripped through the building. The flat Gamoota claimed to have lived in never existed but he used the name of Abdel Salam, a man who died in the fire and had been named in the press, as the backdrop for his fraud. Gamoota pleaded guilty to two counts of fraud for his attempt to gain a total of £6,784.36, and was jailed for 18 months.

"Fraud investigators have been called in after 15 members of the same family received public aid worth up to £1m and at least three new homes by claiming they lived in a single flat destroyed by the Grenfell Tower fire. One of Britain’s most notorious “crash-for-cash” fraudsters, Masi Naqshbandi, is among the relatives rehoused in new properties, including flats in a luxury development in Kensington, west London, furnished by John Lewis. The Naqshbandi family insist their main residence before the fire on June 14 last year was a three-bedroom flat on the third floor of Grenfell Tower. However, only four names appear on the orginal tenancy agreement"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/01/student-becomes-fifth-grenfell-tower-fraudster-convicted/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/01/man-jailed-for-fraud-claiming-to-be-grenfell-tower-victim http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5925967/Grenfell-Tower-fraudster-claimed-brother-woman-died-son-swindle-32-000.html https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1m-fraud-probe-after-15-claimed-over-grenfell-flat-799l2v6x0 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/family-in-1m-fraud-inquiry-get-special-grenfell-tower-status-kv9scxtc9 http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/grenfell-one-family-got-1m-3-luxury-flats-not-even-genuine-tenant-mass-fraud-going-on/

or is wikipedia, the tool of the global elite, going to cover up these proven, factual, fraudulent activities, which are a significant consequence of the fire, the total fruad running into millions of pounds?

2A02:C7F:DA68:2600:4C20:C31B:B224:E6C8 (talk) 09:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Already covered in this article. Anywikiuser (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * We do now. Section heading will help users navigate the page. David Crayford &#9742;  16:48, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Can I just ask, since we rightly aren't naming Behailu Kebede, why in God's name do we have a list of far less notable people convicted of fraud? Wikipedia isn't a tabloid. Vashti (talk) 17:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

- per WP:BLP (including BLP1E and BLPCRIME), we don't really need to name any non-Wikinotable person convicted. We could say "A 39-year-old man from Fooville was convicted of..." which would cover the situation adequately. Mjroots (talk) 19:07, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Name?
Not the most important part of the article but does anyone know who the tower was named after? Quite by chance I stumbled on a WW1 VC winner and noted that he was merely one of a very accomplished family. JRPG (talk) 09:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)


 * According to Wikipedia (cough) Grenfell Tower page claims Grenfell Road is named after Francis Grenfell, 1st Baron Grenfell. I flagged this - we need a better ref over there to prove it. Both are named Francis Grenfell. The fire itself was not started by Lord Francis Grenfell (d.1925) or Captain Francis Grenfell (d.1915). At least, not without borrowing ' Time Machine. :-) David Crayford &#9742;  19:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Anyone use Google? I found this: https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/14/grenfell-tower-named-know-man-7630481/ MartinezMD (talk) 19:41, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Updated ref on Tower page.David Crayford &#9742;  16:43, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

It is also worth (sometimes) looking in the archives of the talk pages of this article. See Talk:Grenfell Tower fire/Archive 1 and Talk:Grenfell Tower fire/Archive 2. Not much more there, but it gives some insight into how easy it is to get naming explanations wrong without sources, and how places are often named after nearby roads or places (that are named after people) rather than directly after those people. Carcharoth (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Additional BBC article and documentary
Grenfell Tower: The fires that foretold the tragedy (BBC News), and a BBC documentary, The Fires that Foretold Grenfell (being broadcast on Tuesday 30 October 2018 for those in the UK). May be of interest here, and for the articles we have on those fires (all mentioned in the article at present). Carcharoth (talk) 05:29, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Cladding removal figures
Government figures of 30 Nov 2018 show how far cladding has been removed, or not.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/762144/Building_Safety_Data_Release_November_2018.pdf

Could promote headings re cladding and safety reviews so they show on index and put this ref there. Safety review snippets up and down the page might be consolidated. David Crayford &#9742;  12:18, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Support for GA Nom?
I have some interest (willingness?) to do the GA review of this article, but since the nominator is not one of the top 20 contributors to the article I wanted to follow the Good Article Instructions and somewhat after the fact follow, "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article on the article talk page prior to a nomination." It would likely take me a while to do such a review given the length of the article and the number of sources involved and there would likely be some number of potential changes (for instance I've only read the lead at this point and would suggest that there is some degree of OVERCITE going on) so I think having editor support to embark on a GA review is particularly important. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:29, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I want this to be a Good Article. It is a significant event which deserves being well documented. The process itself will help improve it. I am too green to know the process and welcome suggestions. I agree that in our diligence to prove all the facts there is some overkill. David Crayford &#9742;  12:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

"injuries consistent with falling from a height".[92][93]
Have I missed something? I don't see the number 4 in this source, nor do I count four people for whom falling was related to their deaths. All I have found so far from the inquests are three records with victims' names (which I won't list here, but you can find them here or here ). These links appear to be expansions on the sources in the article. Aside from the three named, who else is there? This can be seen as sensationalism, and I think we need to be mindful of the perceptions in the affected community. We can't exaggerate. Dcs002 (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Unnecessary sections
You asked me to discuss this on the talk page: there are two sections that I consider unnecessary. The first is "One year on". There will be memorials for this disaster for years to come, so we don't need to record them all in detail. The second is "Conservative Party survey". Given that the focus of this article is a series of deaths, injuries, trauma and bereavements, this type of insult is trivial by comparison. It also received coverage in only two national papers. Anywikiuser (talk) 23:01, 22 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Should we instead have coverage, with a separate section header, of Theresa May being boo-ed from the scene by local activists, and having to shelter behind her henchmen? MPS1992 (talk) 23:30, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We need to maintain a neutral

Maybe it doesn't need a separate (sub)section, but the marking of the first anniversary is relevant, and should be covered. Mjroots (talk) 08:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I looked at this last night, looked at the editors name and decided not to revert, or to tag this with take to the talk page. I have looked again this morning and decided that I should just have reverted. To remove the anniversary is a political act that needs to be discussed before it is executed- and the anniversary is important to the article. The issue about whether we should be open about Kensington Conservative Parties insensitivity and not attempt a politically motivated cover up- two days before UK Elections is interesting... no more needs to be said yet.ClemRutter (talk) 09:10, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * So you think I'm doing a politically motivated edit to give the Tories an advantage in tomorrow's local elections? For the record in the archive, I previously raised this issue in June and July 2018, 1-2 months after the last set of local elections, which included the one for RBKC Council. That would have been 1-2 months too late for the edit to affect those local elections – except it wouldn't have, because Wikipedia does not affect people's views on politics. If you're going to go ad hominem and ignore my argument, at least do it for reasons that might be plausible. Anywikiuser (talk) 10:39, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Consensus was against you in June! I support, don't personalise. The place to re-argue your case is here.ClemRutter (talk) 10:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There wasn't any consensus, as only one person replied to me.
 * The issue I have with all the anniversary stuff is that there have been plenty of memorials to the disaster, and there will be plenty more the future. Do we really need to mention all of them? At the very least, do we really need to mention the fact the inquiry didn't sit that week?
 * The issue I have with the ward survey paragraph is that it's trivial in the long run. It received coverage from only some of the national news outlets. And if insults are indeed noteworthy topics for the article, then we need another subsection about the burning effigy video, which received far more media attention and has actually led to one person getting charged. And that illustrates the problem: that this article will start turning into a record of every insult that has been levelled that has some relevance to Grenfell Tower. For comparison, the Hillsborough disaster article mentions only 2 insults, and the Bradford City stadium fire one doesn't mention any. Anywikiuser (talk) 11:20, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Seems fine, no need to remove. Coverage of future anniversaries will be dependent on the level of coverage in secondary sources, and it may or may not be appropriate to rename or merge the section at that time. VQuakr (talk) 15:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The lead
Some time ago (editing as an IP, since I'm often logged-out these days) I added a paragraph to the lead that I notice isn't there anymore. Going through the article history, it looks like in was removed in March.

"Residents of Grenfell Tower had previously complained that the building was a fire hazard. In light of this, the fire caused significant public outrage over perceived negligence by the management company KCTMO. Kensington and Chelsea Council were also heavily criticised, especially for their handling of the aftermath of the tragedy. As protests and unrest grew in the local community, and concerns over fire safety spread throughout the country, Prime Minister Theresa May instructed central government to take over the response effort and ordered a public inquiry. Several grassroots action groups, such as the community-led Justice4Grenfell, emerged to lobby for meaningful change and accountability."

I don't care if this is reintstated word-for-word, but I definitely think the lead needs to mention the public outrage over Grenfell. It's a core part of the narrative that is completely excluded in the current version. WP:Lead of course says that the lead should be a comprehensive summary of the article. What do we think? -- Loeba (talk) 18:55, 24 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I prefer to avoid wording like "were also heavily criticised" or "was criticised", because this kind of wording states a negative opinion without giving an idea of how many people would agree with it. After all, Clement Atlee's government were criticised when they decided to create the NHS. I have a similar issue with wording that says there is "significant public outrage" over KCTMO. On the other hand, no-one can dispute that the council leader and its chief executive resigned within weeks of Grenfell, and that KCTMO was wound up as a council housing manager the following year. By mentioning these facts, the lede can show that there was significant fallout within the borough's local politics while still being neutral.
 * Another issue: the wording also implies that May only ordered the inquiry in response to the protests, but it may have simply been in response to the disaster itself. Anywikiuser (talk) 22:40, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Missing Persons (35309600156).jpg

Photo still needed
We still need a post-renovation photo of the building before it burned, circa 2016-2017, i.e. what the building looked like before the fire. MartinezMD (talk) 05:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Stay put policy
At a recent fire at a retirement home in Crewe, a Fire Officer overruled the "stay put" policy and ordered a full evacuation. An action that is said to have save lives.

Is this worth a mention in this article? Opening for discussion. Mjroots (talk) 14:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * IMO, no. Seems like WP:SYN. MartinezMD (talk) 16:40, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Grenfell inquiry report
The report has been leaked ahead of a Wednesday embargo and parts of it are available online. Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/28/grenfell-inquiry-finds-fire-brigade-gravely-ill-prepared-for-blaze

David Crayford &#9742;  23:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably better that editors show a little restraint and wait until the actual report is published tomorrow. Mjroots (talk) 10:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Camden Council sues Rydon.
Robert Booth of The Guardian published this complicated story which was buried under election malpractice news. Has anyone evaluated how significant this is? The crux appears to be the HMG paid 80m to oddset the cost of moving residents out of their homes in similar tower blocks. Camden reckined the true cost was far higher, the pfi contractor went into liquidation and Camden is trying to reclaim the money from the consortium that cladded Grenfell. --ClemRutter (talk) 22:48, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Too long
As per @FoxyGrampa75 's flag: what can we do to make this heavy page more manageable? I suggest hiving off the "Similar Fires" section or incorporating it into a more general article on firefighting. What else can be spun off? I know there is enough redundancy to compress paragraphs. David Crayford &#9742;  16:43, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I am watching the comments- it is a distressing article to edit. Can I caution about being too hasty, as the major developments in the story are emerging slowly- some can be spun off-I think I created the .....Enqiry spin off page but sizeable chunks need to remain to catch ongoing and future developments.--ClemRutter (talk) 18:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd at least like to split off the list of similar fires to a page like "List of fires that spread through exterior wall assemblies containing combustible components", although we might need a better name. It certainly does not belong on this page any more than an article on a shooting requires us listing other shootings. As for the rest of the article, I'm willing to delete cruft and go from there. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 19:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * What about "List of exterior wall assembly fires"? FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 23:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That'll work. Should I start the page at the Draft namespace or as an article? -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 23:50, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Draftspace would be more effective. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 23:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll work at Draft:List of exterior wall assembly fires. Feel free to join me. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 00:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * for info, high-rise fire in Auckland, NZ, building similarly clad to Grenfell. Mjroots (talk) 11:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I am going to split off the aftermath of this fire into its own page in support of reducing the main page's length. BearGlyph (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Done, aftermath page is now live at Aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire. BearGlyph (talk) 21:12, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Guardian: Boris Johnson's pick to help lead Grenfell inquiry linked to cladding firm
This is important information to add but not sure where it should go.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/16/benita-mehra-grenfell-inquiry-boris-johnson-appoints-engineer-with-links-to-cladding-firm

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 17:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I have added a section in Grenfell Tower Inquiry.ClemRutter (talk) 10:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks very much, John Cummings (talk) 10:42, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire into Grenfell Tower fire
It's probably worth having an Official Discussion(tm) on whether or not there needs to be a separate article talking about the aftermath. I dream of horses If you reply here, please ping me by adding to your message (talk to me) (My edits) @  21:32, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey, that was me. I did that (admittedly hastily) in the interest of reducing the length of the article, as article is, even after split, far too long to navigate comfortably, ref WP:TOOLONG. If consensus comes back negative on splitting off the aftermath, something else should be targeted for a split, since this page is already three times longer than recommended max length of 100 kb. Also, side question,, I noticed that there was a copyright violation invoked on the aftermath split, with a sizable amount of content removed following. Would that violation have applied to the content of this article before it was split off?BearGlyph (talk) 21:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , most likely, yes, the copyvio was there if this is a 'split'. Perhaps you should request a rev-deletion of this page as well? I dream of horses If you reply here, please ping me by adding to your message (talk to me) (My edits) @  21:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * the source you gave is copying the Wikipedia article, there is no copyvio from that source.  Hut 8.5  22:32, 6 January 2020 (UTC)few years

Grenfell is long, and about to longer. After the Phase 2 inquiry, we expect police prosecution. After those there are international H&S implications. As of today we have got it about right, and are being sensitive while NPOV. I fully expect all these articles will be rewritten and rejigged over the next few years. Keep watching. ClemRutter (talk) 11:18, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that it's probably too soon to merge them. I'm hoping soon to write an article on the 'cladding scandal' that's now unfolding in the UK, which will also have a relationship with 'Aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire' -- but it's not clear yet precisely what. Alarichall (talk) 09:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - The main Grenfell Tower fire article is unnecessarily long as it already is. I applaud the user who created the split article. Love of Corey (talk) 03:55, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose the article is overly long already, and I fully support the original bold splitting. By the same token, the new article is not so short, nor the sources so sparse, as to persuade me that a standalone article is not possible. ——  SN  54129  09:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Guardian: Director at Grenfell Tower TMO describes how fatal cladding saved £800,000
Not sure how to include this


 * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/26/director-at-grenfell-tower-tmo-describes-how-fatal-cladding-saved-800000

John Cummings (talk) 22:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The manufacturer, Kingspan, "would be very surprised..."
It is ambiguous who is being quoted. Who said this? Someone clarify this pls.Createangelos (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Grenfell effect made our flats' insurance premium ruinous
Here is an interesting article from Guardian, my personal highlights: I have no idea what to make of this but it looks like that the aftermath is still interesting -- A1000 (talk) 17:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We have found a new provider, Aspen, but it insists that we first remove the cladding at a cost of around £400,000 and then pay a premium of £109,000, which is 600% higher than what we were paying before -- is this a general trend ?
 * The Association of British Insurers (ABI) says insurers can no longer be certain that materials certified as safe in a laboratory would withstand a conflagration in a multi-occupancy building. -- So the ABI is not trusting the procedures in the laboratories anymore ? They will define the own standards ?

Canary Wharf fire
The Metro is reporting that a tower block at Canary Wharf has caught fire. It is clad in the same material as Grenfell Tower and more than 20 appliances are attending. Nothing showing atm on BBC, ITV or Sky news websites. Mjroots (talk) 09:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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Number of arrests
Hi, There is a number of arrests set at 6 but I cannot find a primary or secondary source.

At news media goes there was one arrest. It needs citation.

Thanks VariableDeclared (talk) 11:31, 4 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Removed. The arrests refer to fraud using the fire as a pretext rather than about culpability for the fire itself.
 * David Crayford &#9742;  20:31, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Something in the inquiry testimony we should add to the article down the road
I noticed that Professor Jose Torero testified in June 2022 before the Grenfell Tower fire inquiry on the difference between American and British construction codes. Unfortunately, unless someone knows of a reliable source that has already reported this point, I can't cite it directly in the article because that would be first publication of original research. I'm identifying this issue now, so that if this point does show up in press coverage or the inquiry's final Phase 2 report, we can add this to the article.

The relevant testimony can be found here on pages 100 to 124 of the transcript.

The exchange on page 128 (page 33 of the PDF) is the best explanation I've seen to date of the key difference between the prescriptive American approach and the functional British approach. --Coolcaesar (talk) 10:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * This is interesting, but why is the difference relevant in UK jurisdiction?
 * David Crayford &#9742;  20:37, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
 * A lot of press coverage after the fire implied that the UK could have prevented Grenfell Tower by adopting the NFPA 285 test and making it mandatory for high-rise construction. The point of Torero's testimony is that it would have not.  It's our rigidly prescriptive building culture which best explains why the United States has not sustained a mass casualty incident from an accidental high-rise structure fire since 1980.  (The fires in 1986 and 2006 were deliberately set.)
 * A key point that is implicit in the exchange I cited is that the US assumes that most design professionals (both in manufacturing and construction) either do not have a thorough understanding of fire science or are too busy doing their regular jobs to stay on top of the latest science. The US approach is to convene the top experts every few years and bake their consensus expertise into a fresh version of the building codes.  Then everyone else is trained to mechanically follow or enforce the codes, to place their trust in the experts, and to blame the codes (when clients want to do certain things and the codes won't allow them).
 * In contrast, the UK functional approach grants broad discretion to design professionals, but with great power comes great responsibility. It will be interesting to see if the Phase 2 inquiry report goes into that issue and whether it recommends a conversion to a prescriptive approach, or in lieu of that, improving training and regulation of UK design professionals.  --Coolcaesar (talk) 22:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)