Talk:Grille (artillery)

Article name?
This should be relabled Grille (Cricket) as the Bison was actually the 12 SP artillary pieces sent to North Africa based on the Panzer Mk II chassis
 * Done - don't know why some authors insist on the Bison myth - the Bioson was indeed a Panzer-II modification with only 12-14 converted and used in Africa. --Denniss 01:07, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

Are you sure about this? I've always seen that the Grille series were the waffentragers developed later in the war, _not_ the self propelled artillery pieces described on this page. A cursory google search seems to bear this out.

Some sources would be appreciated. --Martin Wisse 20:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Some searches with Google claim the sIG 33 auf Panzer Ib is Bison I, then the sIG 33 auf Panzer II would be Bison II (alternate name Sturmpanzer I/II). The sIG 33 auf Panzer 38(t) is without any question the Grille (alternate name Sturmpanzer 38(t)). There is/was a weapon carrier development called Grille but they all had a number with them. Look at http://www.achtungpanzer.com or http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de . I really don't know who mixed up the names Bison and Grille but it seems a lot of authors did some copy & paste using the wrong sources. I'd like to see some valid german sources calling the sIG33 auf Selbstfahrlafette (later Geschützwagen) 38(t) the Bison.
 * Well, I doubt that here was Bison at all. No one serious source shows the name Bison next to self propelled s.I.G.33 on PZ.I or Pz.II chassis. For example - Doyle's "standard Catalog of German Military Vehicles". Perhaps, Bison was allied code name? Or just one of the old mistakes? Anyway, it should be "Bisons" in German.Fat yankey 11:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know either where Bison came from but it looks more like an unofficial nickname because of the huge fat vehicle the Panzer I based versions were. --Denniss 15:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I did some research, In a lot of british books the Grille is refered to as Bison eg Orbis Publication, War Machine, even Chamberlain in his pre-1978 books refers them as Bison. This seems to have been from them all using a single reference published in the early 1960's. eg, in over 20 books, I have, published before 1980 it's Bison. In 1978, Chamberlain & Doyle published Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two and refered to it as a Grille since then it's been Grille as Chamberlain & Doyle have seen as being the main source.
 * I do have a theory that it's refered to a Bison as that is the Divisional symbol that was present on the 15cm armed vehicals sent to Africa and original authors assumed that the 15cm range of vehicals were all variants.Mark1800 23:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review
Can someone have a look at what I've done. If you have any questions, please discuss here before editting. (spelling doesn't count. My spelling sucks) Mark1800 01:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC) Bold text

Modifications
The one modification of Grille was armed with 15 cm schwere FeldHaubitze 13K (Not from World of Tanks). When I saw Grille (not in WoT) I noticed that the cannon had short barrel and the overall design resembled sFH 13. --Arbalestier (talk) 18:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * no (heavy) artillery on this vehicle, short range heavy infantry gun in all versions of the Grille. Incapable of carrying an artillery gun of this caliber. --Denniss (talk) 19:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay. The cannon on Grille was sIG 33, I assume. So it could not be armed with sFH 14 (correct spelling, not sFH 13K) --User:Arbalestier (talk) 07:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Variants - Ausf K?
I've been browsing the corresponding article in other Wikipedias, and from a few of these seems that there was an "Ausf K" variant; the pic from the Aberdeen surviving vehicle is marked as such. However, there are few citations in most of those articles; and I don't have my reference material at hand. Can anyone please help clarify this matter? Thanks, DPdH (talk) 16:50, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Grille Ausf. K is the later variant built onto the Geschützwagen 38(t) Ausf. M chassis (gun mounted in the rear). The Flakpanzer 38(t) built onto the same Ausf. M chassis has the vehicle designation Ausf. L. Taken from Panzer Tracts 23.--Denniss (talk) 17:09, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fast response! To check if I understood this: the chassis is "Ausf M" but the Grille variant is "Ausf K"? Hence only 2 variants: Grille H (old chassis) and Grille K (new chassis)? Regards, DPdH (talk) 17:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The naming in Panzertracts 10/23 is a bit confusing, the chassis may have been named Geschützwagen 38 M (without Ausf.) but it was clearly based on the Ausf. M used by the last Marder III version. According to the chassis numbers given in PT 23 all Grille were new-built vehicles, refurbished 38(t) chassis were used for Marder III conversion.--Denniss (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That's interesting! From photographs, is clear that there are 2 Grille variants, one with the gun in the middle of the chassis ("Ausf H") and another with the gun in the rear (widely identified as "Ausf M", but also seems to be called "Ausf K"); the Geschützwagen 38 M chassis should be the one used for the latter. It'd be great to clarify this confusion so the article can be amended if necessary. Regards, DPdH (talk) 02:44, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * ID of later Grille as M is wrong, both the armed version and the ammo carrier were Ausf. K. The Flakpanzer also used the Geschützwagen 38 M but the vehicle designation wasn't Ausf. M but Ausf. L. One has to separate the designation for a chassis and for a complete vehicle. You'll see the same with Panzer III - all versions since Ausf. J were built on 8. ZW chassis (with minor changes) so in the end you had Ausf. J/L/M/K/N on more or less the same chassis. You will see both Marder III and Grille with Ausf. H because they used the same basic Ausf. H chassis originally intended to be built as Ausf. H tanks. The Grille Ausf. M was probably named so for the similarity to the Marder III Ausf. M but without being supported by facts.--Denniss (talk) 08:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That's clear now. All this sourced from PanzerTracts? I can attempt to rewrite the relevant parts of the article to set things right, if you could please provide the inline citations and peer review. Kind regards, DPdH (talk) 02:11, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Do Not forget that (Auf.) M in the case of the Marder for example means not a sequential version but that it means that the engine was placed in the middle, not the back (Heck in German). 80.151.9.187 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Letter used for chassis variant is not related to engine placement - common myth. --Denniss (talk) 10:53, 25 May 2018 (UTC)