Talk:Grilling/Archive 1

How do you keep your steak moist?
how do you keep your steak moist
 * Marinades are very important for cooking with direct heat. It helps prevent cancerous chemicals from forming and keeps the juices in the meat.  --Rakista 01:57, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Marinades are a great thing, no doubt. They increase the moisture content of the meat and some of the ingredients, e.g. fruit acids, can help to tenderise meat. However, all grilling, roasting and frying processes produce acrylamides in the outer crust of the meat and it is these that pose a cancer risk. Basically, the more of that nice gold/brown finish you put on the meat, the greater the danger. Hard to see how a marinade helps. Not that any of this puts me off either marinades or grilling, of course.82.45.52.11 (talk) 22:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In a steak, juiceness is a direct function of doneness. A rarer steak will have more moisture and a more done steak will have less. Higher fat content and better fat distribution will compensate somewhat for reduced moisture.  A marinade will give you some leeway in your time/temperature combination but make sure to pat it off before grilling as any fat in the liquid will cause flame and flame is the quickest way to ruin your steak.  A probe thermometer is the easiest way to check, as doneness and therefore juiciness is directly related to temperature.


 * If you won't/can't purchase a thermometer, doneness can be well gauged by feel; that is, touching the meat on the grill. To help learn this technique there is the thumb method: comparing the firmness of the meat to the fleshy part at the base of the thumb.  Touching it with the palm open is comparable to rare.  Touching it while the tip of the thumb meets the tip of the middle finger is comparable to medium.  Touching it while the tip of the thumb meets the tip of the pinky is comparable to well-doneness.  A well-done steak will be a relatively dry steak no matter how you've cooked it.  Practice, of course, makes perfect.


 * Finally, the steak should be rested for at least five minutes in an insulating but not airtight environment (such as under a aluminum foil tent) before consumption. VermillionBird 21:27, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Useful tips, but I suspect "doneness" and "rareness" are very culturally specific. In UK restaurants, even rare steaks are usually pretty grey inside. The more Francophile among us, on the other hand, only wave a steak in the direction of the grill before serving it. Incidentally, aluminium foil is not in any sense an insulator, although it is a good way of preventing moisture loss.82.45.52.11 (talk) 22:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Illustration
The second photograph, the one of a skewer being eaten, is pretty useless. It's more of a party snapshot of some guy who happens to be eating and doesn't really provide much illustration to the article, other than making it seem less encyclopedic.

I'd remove it, but I don't want to invite flames for acting on a personal opinion here. &mdash; Ashmodai (talk &middot; contribs) 11:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Be bold in updating pages. No one should flame you for this sort of thing. Wikipedia is not supposed to be that kind of place. If they disagree they can always revert and then you can have a discussion over it right here. --Grouse 12:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Broiling and grilling
I propose that broiling and grilling be merged. It is confusing as it stands now. There are two words (broiling, grilling) and two concepts (cooking under a gas/electric heating element, cooking over a charcoal/wood/gas fire) which do not correspond in the same way between US and UK English.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. It is organized around concepts, not around words. There are therefore two ways to handle this in WP. Either we have two separate articles, one for cooking under dry heat and one for cooking over dry heat, or we have one article including both. Having two articles would be problematic because there is no standard international name for the concepts, and because there are other places to put the heat: on the side, as in traditional spit-roasting (not to be confused with oven roasting) and in vertical broiling/grilling (döner kebab), on both the top and the bottom (as in a toaster oven).

Comments? --Macrakis 03:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see where the confusion lies. Each article deals with its subject properly. There doesn't need to be a standard international term in order to have two articles. They aren't universal synonyms, and they aren't simply a matter of clear-cut regional dialects, so they can each have their own space. Kafziel Talk 21:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

2007-02-04 I agree. I don't see too much confusion as the information is currently presented, but to be a good encyclopedia artice, I think they should be merged into one article about "Dry heat cooking". -DC


 * not only is there no real confusion, it appears to me the american terminology and the european terminology differ a fFair amount. I know nothing about the topic other than what i just learned on this page (which i had to do when given a recipe with instructions i didnt understand).  If I had to wade through multiple subtle variations on meaning and name, it would have become much more confusing than not.  my vote is to keep them separate, and leave ample evidence of other meanings on other pages.  Skotte 01:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I support keeping the articles separate (after having fixed the mistaken belief that Canada goes by UK/Commonwealth and not American usage). └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 17:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * if you look at any professional level cookin gtext they are speerated, they are seperate concepts/words for a reason, in many places you cannot label something on a menu that is grilled as broiled and vice versa keep them seperate 75.14.222.135 09:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I also think the articles should stay separate. There are two concepts here. Broiling, as it is called in North America, refers to indirect heating from above (such as underneath the heating element in an oven). Grilling, as it is called in North America, refers to heating from below, in which the food also makes direct contact with a metal grate (as on a barbecue grill or a stovetop grill pan).  Barbecuing, as it is called in North America, is something else entirely, as it is done at a much lower heat over a much longer time frame (hours rather than minutes).  The best solution is to leave broiling, grilling, and barbecuing separate -- as they are three different concepts -- and note differences in terminology. sk19842 23:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the description of UK usage in the article is far too schematic, with the usual result of creating far too sharp a distinction between US and UK usage. Usage is actually very loose, shifting and evolving. I think I speak UK English, and I do plenty of cooking both indoors and out, but I have always used "grilling" to cover intense heating both under and over a heat source, so long as a grill or grille is employed. Not only that, I am used to reading the US "broiling", and know perfectly well what it means: we may not say it, but it is fairly common in recipes in the press. It overlaps with what we call "roasting", as well as grilling: we call chickens for oven-cooking "roasters" rather than "broilers". I'm not at all sure that our use of "barbecue" is radically different from the US: as a verb, it generally refers to a fairly slow process, but primarily it means cooking of any sort on a barbecue, i.e. the instrument rather than the method of cooking is the key thing. If there is a significant distinction in US and UK usage, it tends to be that in the UK we always seem to take our cue from the equipment rather than the method. Hence, cooking meat in an oven or rotisserie is generally "roasting" even if the practical effect and result is exactly the same as "grilling".

It gets even more complicated when we factor in recent innovations like the table "grill" (as promoted by George Foreman), which is very popular in the UK. Since this is actually a contact method, and does not feature a grill, I studiously avoid calling its use "grilling". It's actually an electric griddle. I guess a "griddle" what the previous contributor means by a "stovetop grill pan". However, I am quite alone in being fastidious about this: everyone else seems happy to accept Mr Foreman's "grilling machine" as such.

I tend to the view that only one article is needed, which might concentrate minds on the chemistry and physics of cooking, and the uses, advantages and disadvantages of techniques, rather than on the vocabulary, which really is a dictionary matter. Many fascinating monographs could be written about dialect variations, with lots of material for the structuralists and post-structuralists to chew over, but they wouldn't help get tonight's meal cooked.Sjwells53 (talk) 20:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Broiling versus Grilling
Grilling is done outdoors using charcoal, wood or gas in a "grill". Broiling on the other hand is done inside a "stove" using gas flames or electric heat elements. They are two different cooking methods, therefore, I propose they be kept separate. Tomticker5 18:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tomticker5 100 percent. Grilling and broiling are two different cooking methods and should be kept separate. If there is confusion around or different usages to any term, this should be addressed in the appropriate article(s).Potterp 15:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"Grilling is done outdoors using charcoal, wood or gas in a "grill"" -- only un US usage. The process you describe for Broiling; "done inside a "stove" using gas flames or electric heat elements." is exacly what the word "grilling" means outside the US; which is are the confusion arises.

In British English, 'broiling' doesn't exist and 'grilling' covers both. The article needs to cover international usage. CR7 19:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the one word that best describes all these methods is "heating" the food THEN you could categorize HOW the "heating" takes place via electrical elements, gas, wood, charcoal, microwave, boiled in water, etc. Tomticker5 00:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

A way forward
To summarise:
 * Broiling is a North American term only.
 * Broiling in UK/Australia is called Grilling.
 * Grilling as used in North America is called Barbecuing in UK/Australia.

At the moment we have three articles for two cooking methods - some rationalisation is needed! My suggestion is to merge Grilling into Barbecuing and leave broiling as it is. BlueValour 02:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree with this approach and feel that Grilling and Broiling should be merged rather than Grilling and Barbecuing. I imagine that American and Canadian Wikipedia users would be familiar with the term "barbecuing" more so than non-Americans would be familiar with the term "broiling." However a simple explanation of the different regional terms and a disambiguation page for "grilling" should assist in alleviating any confusion when a user is looking for an article on "grilling." I admit that the only reason I happened across this article and subsequently this discussion was that I was reading an American recipe and had absolutely no idea what "broiling" meant. Initially I thought it was a misspelling of "boiling" but, given the recipe, knew that could not possibly be the case.

IrishPete 17:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Addition:


 * Barbecuing as used in North America is called hot smoking in some other places
 * Cold smoking is just called cold smoking


 * According to |Steven Raichlen, barbeque is cooking on a grill with indirect heat, not direct. Barbeque in N. America often also is about marinading and basting slow-cooked meats with barbeque sauce.  Throwing meat on a metal grill over flame is decidedly not barbeque.67.103.5.26 21:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There are actually five connected cooking methods connected by this chain of names, and five articles, but the articles do not match one-to-one to cooking methods! I don't think you should combine Grilling and Barbecue, which would be too confusing. Grouse 18:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... you make some good points. Essentially there are two types of cooking:
 * Application of direct heat from above.
 * Application of direct heat from below.


 * I guess I am moving to a position that combining/splitting the five into two new articles with, so far as possible, neutral names is the way forward. No doubt Cooking (direct heat from above) and Cooking (direct heat from below) won't do but something along these lines would be worth considering. BlueValour 20:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, currently there is no article for barbecuing; it is just a redirect to barbecue, and the content there would not do crammed into an article about other kinds of cooking. Additionally, it is frequently indirect heat. I'm not sure that a change similar to what you describe would be an improvement, honestly. Grouse 12:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Under no circumstances should Grilling and Barbcueing be merged, they are different entities. I have a few cookbooks where the same editions are sold in the UK, US and Austrailia and have notes addressing UK, US and Austrailian inconsistancies regarding egg sizes and tablespoon quantity variations. Thoughout the books the recipes describe Grilling with "Broiling" next to it in brackets for US readers so these can be merged as long as the regional difference in name is identified. "Barbecue" is a derivative of the West Indian term "barbacoa," which is a method of cooking over hot coals. Grilling-UK/AU or Broiling does not have to be over hot coals and most often isn't!  GQ sm Talk 02:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Although barbecuing now refers to cooking over hot coals, gas or electric elements in UK English, I'm pretty certain the original barbacoa was actually a frame for drying meat, rather like "jerky" in South Africa (possibly also US). Even more confusingly, it now seems to be used in Mexican and Central American cuisine for pit cooking of pigs. I think these shifts and elisions in meaning happen all the time, and there's not a lot we can or should want to do about it.Sjwells53 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that the current separation is VERY confusing - wikipedia is supposed to avoid cultural bias as much as possible (although I realise that this is not always realistic), but the article on "grilling" is written from a mostly American viewpoint, with only a brief mention of the British/commonwealth usage of the term. The rest of the entry makes the assumption that "grilling" means "cooking over a direct heat". In fact, the American word "broil" doesn't necessarily imply cooking under direct heat, it can also mean cooking over direct heat - the key part is the direct heat (see definitions here, here & here), and is therefore equivalent with the British english word "grill", which can also have both meanings. "Broil" & "grill" are therefore interchangable, as both technically refer to cooking by direct exposure to radiant heat, with no particular reference to the direction of the heating. The separation in the terms in American english is a cultural convention, but technically they mean the same thing, even in US english (I suspect the confusion arose with the advent of modern grills/broilers, where it was possible to grill food from above. Prior to this all grilling/broiling would have been done over the heat source as there was no other means, and the terms were used interchangably in American english. For some reason, the terms gradually became separated in conventional usage). The term "broil" is still sometimes used to refer to heating from below, as in the phrase "charcoal broiler".

If both terms were combined in one article (maybe just entitled "grilling/broiling" or "direct radiant heat cookery" - or something more catchy!!), it could be very clearly divided up into sections on "cooking under direct heat" & "cooking over direct heat", with appropriate information on the different common usage of the terms around the world, which would eliminate any confusion.

If people are determined they are to be kept separate, I propose that the titles of the articles be changed to reflect what the article is actually about (i.e. cooking under direct radiant heat, or cooking over direct radiant heat), &/or that it is clearly stated at the beginning of the article that it refers to the american usage of the word, and a link should be provided at the beginning to the article on "broiling".

Missdipsy 14:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I thinks this is the best approach. We probably need to think more about the way the cooking process actually works and aim for description based on that. All the dry, direct heat methods have a certain amount in common. They all tend to caramelise the outer layer. They all cook by fairly slow conduction from the outside, changing the inside later and less than the outer layer. And so on. We can distinguish this from methods that use a cooking medium: fat, earth, sand, water, wine, beer, etc. These all use the principle of more rapid heat conduction, with a much more rapid breakdown of tissue. Then again, there are contact methods of cooking, placing the food directly against the utensil, e.g the tandoor oven, the griddle (Scots girdle), or even on hot coals. Heating in general, as a way of breaking down tissue can be, set against chemical and fermentation methods, e.g using salt, brine, fruit juices, or mechanical methods, e.g grinding, mincing or pounding, as in steak tartare or tabbouleh. Of course, you can then identify hybrids and combinations techniques, like braising or pot-roasting (dry heat plus cooking medium), meatballs and hamburgers (grinding plus dry heat), shish kebab (chemical marinade followed by dry heat), adobo (chemical attack by acid, accompanied by hot cooking medium). This sort of phenomenological approach might be better than the semantic starting points that inevitably lead to obvious cultural bias or rapid obsolecence. Sjwells53 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup needed
I appreciate the contributions of new editors but this article has become a mass of OR. Most of the new material added is simply OR. Wikipedia is not a place for editors to share their knowledge or experience but reflects content obtained from reliable sources. I have taken out some of the worst examples and argumentative text that has no place here. The article needs a good clean:
 * To distinguish better between North American and European/Oceania usage.
 * To eliminate all material that is not closely sourced. BlueValour 01:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Sexism in grilling? Kiss the Cook?
I would love to see a section in this article or elsewhere about the traditional sexist idea that men cook on the grill while women cook in the kitchen. Although gender roles are obviously changing in America, this is certainly a phenomenon that is still persistent in our culture.

I suppose we should also include at least a linked article on grillwear, like "Kiss the Cook" aprons.

Silly sad machine 16:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting ideas, could well be encyclopedic. There are surely good, reliable sources on this you could work from... go to it! --Macrakis 16:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Where is your grill used, if not in the kithen?! :s —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.182.109 (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 81.107.182.109, I suspect you may (like me) be British. They are talking about barbecue grilling, outdoors. What we call grilling, Americans call broiling. 144.32.126.15 (talk) 17:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Barbacueing
Here in the US we call it barbacueing. 67.188.172.165 01:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, people in the U.S. just don't know what barbecue really is. 72.40.104.171 (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

A pretty silly comment, above, when the whole point of many of the discussions on this page is that there are differences in usage. Sjwells53 (talk) 11:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

What's going on here?
Broiling and grilling (or, if you will, cooking in an oven under radiant heat from a heating element versus cooking on a grill over a flame or other heat source) are two completely different cooking methods with different histories, equipment, technique, etc. If we can get the terminology straight this really should be two separate articles. Now that the two terms are merged can we please organize it by cooking method and then separate the under-the-heater information to its own article? Wikidemo 19:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * no sh*t. the entire "grilling in the UK" section needs to be removed. It is out of place in this article. --Diablorex (talk) 03:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Would be really nice to have an article on broiling, since its at best barely mentioned in this article. Also would be nice if people who don't know what broiling is would stay out of it. More and more on wikipedia I see "I don't understand this concept, therefore its wrong", and its a very distressing attitude. Quick tip for all the Brits out there: Broiling is cooking in a stove with heat from one direction. Grilling(American) is cooking on top of a fire. Remember, no one knows everything, and removing something that you don't know what is defeats the purpose of an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.175.86.233 (talk) 03:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that what is called broiling in the USA is called grilling in the UK. It's just the term broiling that is foreign to the British not the practise.Guest9999 (talk) 21:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)]]

The Burger King "Flame Grilling Machine" are Nieco Automatic Broilers
The "Flame Grilling Machine" that Burger King (Australia: Hungry Jacks) use are Nieco 'Automatic Broilers'.

See:

http://www.nieco.com/products.php

https://ssl.sonic.net/nieco/reservation.php

Google Book Result

Not sure how to rewrite that section of the article without it sounding like an ad, but the Nieco's are unique automatic conveyor broilers that impart a flame grilled taste as well as a grilled pattern onto the product and a major reason behind Burger King's success. 58.173.51.73 (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Grilling in the UK
This section needs to be removed and put in a separate article. It is insufficient as it it. --Diablorex (talk) 03:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Plancha cooking? Griddling isn't grilling
Despite all the disagreements and differences, in both UK and US usage grilling involves exposure to a radiant heat - unless it's a commercial product like the "George Foreman" type of contact grill. I think the "plancha" stuff is a step too far and belongs under Griddle. I'll move it there soon if there are no cogent objections. The very word plancha (plank) suggests a solid surface, not a wire or bar construction. Certainly all plancha foods I've encountered in Spain have been griddled or shallow fried.Sjwells53 (talk) 12:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sealing in juices
Whatever the sources, does anyone seriously believe you can seal in juices by browning meat? Browning just creates a thin layer of caramelised material, which remains entirely permeable. I'd have thought you would need to present serious scientific evidence that "sealing" worked and that the person who deleted the reference to it was perfectly justified. Heston Blumenthal reckons that the way to keep moisture in meat is to cook it agonisingly slowly, so that the tissues don't contract, breaking down the structure and expelling the juices. That sounds much more likely. Sjwells53 (talk) 09:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)