Talk:Grim Fandango/Archive 1

September 2004 – March 2008

cool :)
Thanks to everyone who has recently improved this article - wow, now it looks just so damn professional :) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:28, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

XP
I've deleted the new "system requirments" section for two reasons:
 * It's redundant, any info of that kind should be in the gamebox unless it is larger than two or three lines.
 * It does work on XP, since the very screenshot seen on the pag was taken in this computer, who's on XP Pro with dx9. GF's uncompatibility is with higher end processors, who usually run with XP rather than 95 or 98, and is solved with a patch. &#373;&#350; 14:41, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I concur. DX9, athlon3000, XPpro+SP2, radeon 9800xp (overkill, huh?). Did crash without the patch, stable and smooth with it. 81.154.240.19 14:56, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok, I agree. Guess it's enough if the information is here in the discussion. Where can I get the path? I'd like to buy and play the game :))) User:Abelson 19:11 Sept 2004 (UTC)


 * here, I guess &#373;&#350; 04:56, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Removal of "Story" Section
The entire section "Story" was EXTREMELY expressive of a POV, and wholly unneeded as the plot is adequately addressed under other sections. Pacian 23:33, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While I don't agree with the complete removal, the section was indeed POV'd. I'll add it later with more focus on locations, story and characters without remarks. wS 12:32, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Are there any Interpretations on the title "Grim Fandango"?
I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the choice of the title of the game, i hope it can add something to the article, and also releive some personal curiosity! (7121989 21:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC))


 * The article explains, saying "The game's title derives from a line of a mournful poem read by one of the characters." If memory serves it is "and now we dance our grim fandango, cheek to cheek".  It's by the beatnik chick in the cafe (you have to hassle her to perform, and keep doing so until she comes out with this one).  I don't think there's any more to it than that. -- Finlay Mcwalter | Talk 21:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, I found the whole poem:


 * With bony hands I hold my partner
 * On soulless feet we cross the floor
 * The music stops as if to answer
 * An empty knocking at the door


 * It seems his skin was sweet as mango
 * When last I held him to my breast
 * But now we dance this grim fandango
 * And will four years before we rest


 * Ain't that beautiful? How many bloody Star Wars games have stuff like that (as opposed to crap like "I don't like sand")? -- Finlay Mcwalter | Talk 22:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Beautiful it is, but Grim Fandango wasn't the original title. They wanted to call it something else, but Lucasarts got scared of the idea of putting 'dead' in the title. I'll add it if I find/remember the information. . . Ren 21:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The original title was Deeds of the Dead, I think. And Grim Fandango is also obvious a pun on "dance of death".

Sprouting
The article mentioned marigolds, but as far as I know, other flowers are used for sprouting as well. So I changed "marigolds" to "flowers"...--Wormsie 15:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That sentence in particular was discussing the resonances between Day of the Dead and Grim Fandango; marigolds (specifically) have special meaning in that festival, and I don't believe other flowers do.  That sentence should, at the very least, say "marigolds and other flowers", but really are any other types of flower shown? I only remember the marigolds. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that when Hector sprouted Copal he said "Marigolds... Funny, for some reason I was expecting tulips". (Which, however, might be a joke I didn't get.) I also think that the flowers in Hector's greenhouse aren't just marigolds, even though all of them are supposedly from dead people. At leat that's how I understood things, but I might be completely off...--Wormsie 22:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The head of Salvador was covered in red flowers, maybe roses, when he was sprouted. His body however was covered with marigolds. I guess the sproutella Hector uses contains only manigolds. - Redmess 16:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In the second year the photographer is sprouted. Her body turns into blue flowers. There are several species called marigold but none of them has got blue petals. Furthermore there are two sprouted people in the mortuary covered in many different flowers. 212.204.77.25 14:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
I moved this bit to a trivia-section I created. Seemed more suitable there than under the Reactions -subtitle.

"A reference to Grim Fandango appears in The Curse of Monkey Island, another LucasArts adventure game. The protagonist, Guybrush Threepwood, at one point in the game encounters a corpse in a chicken shop, wearing a badge saying "Ask me about Grim Fandango." If the player chooses to pick up the badge, Guybrush will decline, saying, 'Nah. I don't want everybody asking me about Grim Fandango.'"

--Wormsie 19:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've moved the trivia section to the bottom of the article, I don't know if there are general rules about it, but most articles I've read have had trivia after the "normal sections". Poulsen 22:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Unless someone has arguments against it, I'm going to delete the trivia section altogether. None of the items listed (save for the Hugh Ferriss reference) seem crucial enough to warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia article. --Jopo 12:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Story
Should we add a deeper summary of the story ? I think the 4 years of his life should be mentioned, an ending, etc.
 * Sounds good to me! Poulsen 16:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I will try to write one this week. - Redmess 16:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia: Grim Fandango poem
"The only time "grim fandango" is ever mentioned is in Olivia's poem, about two star-struck lovers who are lost in the world, and their search for each other is a four year trial (a "grim fandango")."

This, I think, is a wrong interpretation. The poem goes like this:

My interpretation: First the two people, lovers, were alive. Then they died. And it will take four years before they reach the ninth underworld and rest. Other olivia's poems are also about death, such as this one:

So, I removed the interpretation. --Wormsie 10:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Grim Fandango reminds me of Danse Macabre, actually. Heh. --Kizor 16:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sales figures
Does anyone have any actual sales figures for this game? The article mentions many times that Grim Fandango "failed to sell well" and "didn't sell as well as earlier adventures". From what I have learned (from discussions with LucasArts employees of that time and elsewhere) is that while it wasn't a runaway success, Grim Fandango did OK on the market, especially in Europe, and exceeded the company's sales estimates. Furthermore, it probably sold more actual copies than earlier adventures (due to the growth of the games business in general), even if it fared worse proportionately. --Jopo 07:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I for one am strongly in favour of scrapping unsourced statements. Shinobu 21:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This post at Adventure Gamers even has a source - but unfortunately archive.org won't show the page anymore. :P http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showpost.php?p=6765&postcount=12 --Wormsie 05:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey Wormsie, thanks for linking my post from AG - I forgot I even posted something like that ;) --Jopo 07:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So we'll scrap the "failed to sell well" bit? Shinobu 10:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I finally found a quotation, so I will edit. :-)Wormsie 15:16, 9 August 2006

Smoking
"Most of the characters smoke (largely for cinematic effect)." It seems to me like the "cinematic effect" bit is: a) POV, and b) to attempt some rationalization for smoking beyond the characters simply enjoying smoking.


 * The design of "Grim Fandango" echoes a lot aspects from the film noir genre (femme-fatales, the main character unawareness of the sinister plot around him, etc.) In those films the characters generally smoked, because it was perceived as "cool" in those days. Additionally the developers put something about why smoking is so common in the Land of the Dead in the manual of the game:
 * For those who are disturbed by the amount of smoking in Grim Fandango, we offer two reasons: 1) we wanted to be true to the film noir atmosphere, and 2) everybody in the game who smokes is DEAD. Think about it." mensch • t 21:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the bit at the end of the introduction...
...(which I removed).

Here it is, in case it is of any use to someone:

"Given the game's theme many critics sarcastically remarked Grim Fandango as being the final nail on the coffin of the dying adventure-game genre. However, these announcements were found premature. LucasArts would go on to release one more adventure game, Escape from Monkey Island, two years later using the GrimE engine. Also sequels to other popular adventure-games such as Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword and Longest Journey would appear in the on-coming years. While the genre had undoubtedly wained in popularity, since its heyday in the 80s and early 90s the genre has remained alive through new games and sequels produced at a fairly regular rate."

Now, my reasoning for deleting it: I like the style and all, but it's not about Grim Fandango. Maybe if someone was to write a whole article about the death of adventure games, that bit might be of use there. Also, it's strangely optimistical, in a "adventure games aren't not dead, honestly, can't you see, I saw its arm twitch just a second ago!" -way. Or something.--Wormsie 20:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think only the last sentence needed to be deleted there, the rest is an accurate portrayal of what reviews were expressing at the time. Rufous 10:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point... However, the final nail on the coffin -bit is mentioned later on in article and the game's low sales are already mentioned in the first paragraph, so I don't know if it's necessary information.
 * Still, with the rest removed, it would sound slightly comical: "Given the game's theme many critics sarcastically remarked Grim Fandango as being the final nail on the coffin of the dying adventure-game genre. However, these announcements were found premature. LucasArts would go on to release one more adventure game, Escape from Monkey Island, two years later using the GrimE engine." As if it was sayigng, "the adventure genre didn't die after Grim Fandango, but after Escape from Monkey Island." ;-) --Wormsie 11:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Sequels and rumors
Many fans await for a sequel to be created for Grim Fandango but no official announcements have been released. Many fans await for a sequel to be created for Grim Fandango but no official announcements have been released. A July 2006 Gamespot blog article first mentioned rumors that Tim Burton would be directing a Grim Fandango movie, but later the rumors were revealed to be a hoax, originating from the same source on several different websites and blogs. Although in Edge Magazine, September 2006 edition, this rumor was printed. In light of WP:CRUFT, is the above text realy worth including? Shinobu 00:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't be the first time that a hoax is chronicled on Wikipedia, so yeah. -TheHande 09:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The blog article gamespot.com in turn references the Media Center blog--which predates it by 6 days. Shouldn't it be linked to the Media Center post instead if we're operating under when/where the rumor was "first mentioned"?

Interface & read the manual, folks
I added the following bit to the gameplay section: "Pressing Del (in the numerical pad) or period also switches between different objects." You can switch between different objects. People jus don't read the manual, apparently. :-P--Wormsie 10:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In the in-game controls options it says + and - are used for switching items. People just don't read the in-game instructions either, apparently. :-P - Redmess 16:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Switching inventory items you mean? Wormsie was referring to objects in the environment that Manny would look at. :-P Liam Markham 19:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Movie rumors
OK, before delving into edit wars...

User:James Hetfield stated that "a message board is NOT a reliable source." It is not a message board, it's a news page of The Department of Death. If The Movie Center, an obscure blog with no references, is a reliable enough source for GameSpot (and even they state that "the 'interview' was actually a collection of quotes lifted from other press outlets"), then why isn't the news page of The Department of Death a reliable enough source for us? And if it isn't reliable enough for us, why is The Movie Center reliable enough for us and why can't we just remove the whole hoax from the Wikipedia article on the basis of no reliable sources?--Wormsie 09:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry, I hadn't noticed that James Hetfield is Wesborland... I reverted as per WP:HOAX :P --Wormsie 09:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has rules. Both The Movie Center and the DOD page cannot be used as a direct sources as per WP:RS. Gamespot, however, IS a reliable source, whatever source they decide to use. --~ ~ James Hetfield (previously Wesborland) ~ ~ 19:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Gameplay section irrelevant
I would remove the whole Gameplay section (I already did, but someone reverted it), or at least completely rewrite it. This is an encyclopedia, not a manual for the game. Readers of the article are not interested in knowing which button to press to bring up the inventory or to interact with an item. --Jopo 13:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do rewrite it, but I think it contains useful information (such as a mention of the GrimE engine). Simply deleting everything was a rather drastic measure.--Wormsie 21:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, so I removed the detailed control instructions, but personally think that most of the information left there now is useful and valuable.--Wormsie 21:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, better now. I deleted the whole section before as the GrimE engine is already mentioned in the Production section later on. --Jopo 06:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Four years?
Doesn't the game technically take place over 3 years? There are only three "One year later" jumps in the game, and none of the chapters take place over the course of an entire year.--24.255.171.205 15:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Year 1 -> "One year later" jump -> Year 2 -> "One year later" jump -> Year 3 -> "One year later" jump -> Year 4. It chronicles Manny's four year journey, redeeming himself by breaking the conspiracy to prevent deserving souls from getting their train tickets and to sell phony ones to people. It isn't the entire year, just the time involved in the part you play. Look at the difference between the casino before and after the jump, or the change in the ship. Time passes. --StarChaser Tyger 09:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * When year four begins, three full years have passed. The fourth year is never finished. Still, the story ends during the fourth year.--Wormsie 10:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe them riding the train is the end of the fourth year. It took most of the year to get to the station at the end of the world... But, endless travel is boring, so they jumped. --StarChaser Tyger 02:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Manny may have been working for the DoD for a year before the game begins. That'd make 4 years total. EamonnPKeane 21:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed the LucasArts link
I took out the link to the LucasArts' website product description because no such page exists anymore. Outside of a non-linked mention in a "PC Releases" list, there is no information regarding Grim Fandango what-so-ever. That makes me sad, one of the best games ever and its own developer doesn't even mention it.131.230.208.25 20:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)Malinda

References on music
Added a reference link to the paragraph discussing the inspiration of the music in the game. The original product page with the McConnell quotations on the LucasArts site has been removed, so the link points to the archived page on Wayback Machine. --Jopo 11:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Character spoilers
I've edited the characters section of the page to remove the spoilers regarding various character's deaths. This is a great article otherwise. Krang 12:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: "the spoilers regarding various character's deaths". Hi Krang, the characters in this game are already dead. I think you mean "recycling". ;) 212.204.77.25 11:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Haha, good point! Krang 12:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, as this is an encyclopedia, we can include information about character deaths, of how the plot wil end and such things.--Wormsie 21:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I beg to differ. People looking up this article might want to play the game. I've had so much fun with this game, I don't want to spoil it for others. 212.204.77.150 12:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, from Spoiler: "If a plot detail that arises in an unexpected place — a "Cast of characters" or "Setting" section, for instance — consider moving that detail to a more appropriate section, or changing the section title. Alternatively, the unexpected plot detail may be marked off with spoiler tags." [...] "Should this article contain spoilers? Yes! It is almost never acceptable to delete information from an article because it constitutes a spoiler. Consider moving it or marking it off with spoiler tags — that is why they exist, after all!" --Jopo 21:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Added info
Level gaming magazine labeled grim fandango as the best game of the last 10 years, if not all time.

Any reader of level can confrim this, and here is some proof:

http://www.level.com.tr/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25483

(I know forums aren't the best sources, I'll try to find anouther)

I have to admit however that the list was quite odd, no C&C games made it into the list and neither did the halo series.

--Armanalp 11:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Manny's Name
Calavera doesn't mean "skull." Technically, it means "it becomes bald," but that's not the point. The name Calavera comes from the fact that it's pronunciation in Spanish sounds like "cadaverous," which means "looking like a corpse; appearing dead." I'd prefer to change it, unless someone has a reason why not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.37.47.80 (talk) 04:52, 18 November 2007
 * If you're right, then this is an issue you should bring up on the Calavera talk page first. CountingPine (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I just looked it up, a skull is only called "calavera" when talking about Dia de los Muertos; otherwise, it's "cranio". The problem was a typo; "It becomes bald" is calvara, not calavera. Sorry about the confusion.

GA Nom
Knowing that this is a pretty significant video game, I think the state it was in before a edits I made had GA quality - I've made a few more to hopefully insure it and have passed it on for a GA review. It would be great to get this one up to FA if we can. --M ASEM 05:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination on hold

 * "beyond (see Reactions section)." - REmove stuff in brackets
 * "Gameplay" and "Characters" sections need sourcing - perhaps use a walkthrough (IGN usually does some)
 * "Like most other Lucasarts adventure games" - LucusArts...A should be in caps, right
 * "Like these figures the characters are not skeletons but depictions of souls.[citation needed]" - This sentence makes no sense, and needs a cite
 * "Grim Fandango was an attempt by LucasArts to rejuvenate the graphical adventure genre, which in 1998 was in a decline.[citation needed]" - fact
 * Might wanna note that ref 7 was archived via web archive
 * Some prose for the awards, rather than a list, would be nice

Leave a note on my talk page when you're done with this stuff. &mdash; Dihydrogen Monoxide 00:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Failed - no effort made to address these issues. &mdash; Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 07:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello from GF's Vietnamese Wikipedia
Hello, I'm the one who created the Grim Fandango article on Vietnamese Wiki, and I do almost everything - writing, translating, adding pictures, descriptions... and seems that nobody help me on this article... maybe because there isn't much people in Vietnam know about this great game. My article is candidating for a Featured article, but it seems that there isn't many people agreed with the article...

Well, working on this article to get a star on its top is pretty hard... especially it's alone.

Help wanted. Kreativevn (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Notes for GAN
Not looking too bad on first glance. I'll make notes as I go...Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Any reason why we're using graphical and not graphic through the article? The former sounds a bit odd to me.


 * Grim Fandango received nearly uniformly positive reviews. - I'd use "almost" for "nearly" here, as it sounds a bit odd.


 * combines elements of Aztec beliefs of afterlife and film noir, -almost sounds like film noir is an Aztec belief....(maybe swap around?)

*However, due to the decline in the adventure game market in favor of action games at the time of its release, Grim Fandango suffered from poor sales, - smoother if you switch to: However, Grim Fandango suffered from poor sales due to the decline in the adventure game market in favor of action games at the time of its release, - one less comma.

*The game uses the GrimE engine, rendering backgrounds in 2D, while the main objects and characters are represented in 3D, and allows the player to move Manny with a keyboard, a joystick or a gamepad. - I don't follow this - what allows the player to move Manny with the keyboard etc.

*...each soul takes is left to the travel agents of the Department of Death, who also act as the Grim Reaper to escort the souls... - you have a plural agent becoming a singular here.

*Alongside the souls are demons.. --> "Alongside them are demons"


 * .. devices a makeshift fuel - devises some' makeshift fuel (?)


 * Grim Fandango was an attempt by LucasArts to rejuvenate the graphic adventure genre, which in 1998 was in a decline - I'd change the Grim Fandango to 'it' here and combine this paragraph with the preceding sentence. There is no need for a para break here. Also switch 'decline' and '1998' ....actually I'll tweak myself

*What does ''fully voiced' mean?

* in which a weak and undistinguished insurance salesman is involved in murder and intrigue. - "involved in murder and intrigue." - sounds vague. specifying the plot a little bit would sound better

*Visually the game drew inspiration from various sources: - comma after visually, or "visual inspiration" if you like


 * The game's music, featuring a mix of an orchestral score, South American folk music, jazz, swing, and big band sounds, was composed at LucasArts - "Featuring a mix of an orchestral score, South American folk music, jazz, swing, and big band sounds, the game's music was composed at LucasArts" - less break up of clauses

Otherwise, nice, comprehensive and a straightforward GA. Will need some more referencing for FAC and maybe a fresh pair of eyes for copyediting.
 * Tim Schafer, since the development of Grim Fandango, has left LucasArts - same here


 * I've hit all the edit points you've mentioned above; thanks for taking a look. --M ASEM 13:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

OK...GA then. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Release date contradiction
The game info box states the game's release date was September 30, 1998, yet the article says "the game was released on the Friday before 2 November 1998, a few days before the actual Day of the Dead celebration". Can anyone verify whether either date is correct? --Jopo (talk) 09:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Sept 30 date seems to be based on Gamespot's page, but the pre-Nov 2 release (Oct 30) is supported by a newspaper article, checking on google groups, and the fact that no reviews of the game are present until Nov. (IGN's review date is 11-3).  I will switch to the the Oct 30 date, since this could simply be a typo at Gamespot. --M ASEM  12:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)