Talk:Grime music/Archive 1

Blah
Is this one of those trendy (one-hit-wonder) genres ? Beside Dizzee Rascal, I haven't heard anything great ... How can you measure success and popularity in the genre domain ? --DynV 10:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

um...GRIME ANYONE?>

fixed the page up a bit, i'll fix it up even more til its on par with the reggaeton entry. Justinhoude 04:25, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Minimalistic
Right now the article says that Grime is often minimalistic, but that's not the case at all. Grime mostly uses full-loaded drum patterns, sound effects and synths. I'm removing it, and I reckon most people will think it's the righ thing to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.37.17 (talk) 20:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

genre box
Nice article on grime, although I think it could do with some of those little genre boxes that can be found on the [2 step] page, in fact, there should probably also be a link between the two. I'll get on it if I've got time. illWill 20:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah we need to work out what sort of box. I've added the tag at the top which links us into the genres wikiproject. Most of the articles off Breakbeat are a mess. Is grime a sub-genre of 2 step? Secretlondon 21:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

"during this period Nu Shape "A new music Genre" as it has always been branded, created another more mature strain of MC based garage music, incorporating vocalists and UK accented "Hip Hop" MCs much in the same way as Nasty Crew, Ghetto, Kano, Doctor, Unorthodox currently lay down their version of Grime music, among them all, none of them like/promote the "Government name for UK" street music.

They don't like the name "Grime" or "Urban", so soon the name will no longer be called Grime, due to the fact that the London scene is saying no to "Grime"... "

this is bullshit... remove it!

samplers, Drum machines, can someone tell me who uses actually uses this in grime?

definitional
Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I may well be so I haven't edited the article, but I have heard a fair amount of grime and don't think I've ever heard breakbeats in any of it.

MC_FAQR writin' here

Nah man i hear about grime and stuff and it's a sub-genre of garage. But to me I jus think it's just england hip hop. the grimey instrumentals can be called garage (examples: wiley- gunshot riddim etc..)


 * aye, grime is definitly an evolution from uk garage, although somewhat confusingly UK Garage redirects to 2Step which then notes that "2Step [is] one of the two major sub-genres of UK Garage". 2Step also notes "the media started to call this fast-played garage music "Speed Garage", 2Step's predecessor.", but Speed garage also redirects to 2Step. --MilkMiruku 08:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

it's really debate-able 'cause west coast hip hop is an evolution of hip hop, so is east coast hip hop, crunk music and so on....

grime is...... a clash between GARAGE (drum n' bass and shit like that) and HIP HOP.

Imma do an article on ROll Deep Crew

whagwarn blud? Your little intro to grime is good, if a little short. I follow he grime scene quite closely, and i can fill in some big holes that confound the article into giving only a slice of whats happening. grime is now winning mobo's (kano - best new artist, Pow by lethal b - best single) and roll deep have surprised everyone with their album 'in at the deep end'. New MC's come and go on the underground all the time, Grime is now on a national (and legal!) radio station (logan sama on kiss FM) and another thing that could do with mentioning is mix DVD's that often come with mix cd's or albums. These have sold in their thousands and more come out every week.

I will do a full edit of the main article soon, if theirs any objections post them here and we can sort something out. i just want to get some facts down before i edit anything, and like most fledgling genre's, facts are hard to pin down. (like the release date of the mobo winning POW by lethal b, the record had been in certain shops for at least 3 months before the "official" release date.) p.s. Grime is NOT uk hip hop. there is a large difference.

---WTF do u mean grime is not uk hip hop? What do you call crunk music then? Crunk is a sub genre of Hip Hop as to grime is a subgenre of hip hop.

--Na UK hip hop is older and much different, grime didnt really evolve from Uk hip hop either more from garage. Listen to artists like jehst and roots manovre then listen to wiley or crazy titch and youll see the diffeerence, grime is usually rapped over double time, uk hip hop isnt


 * whadya mean whadya mean you fool!
 * go on den go on den draw for the tool!
 * -skepta- new member of roll deep and also a member of the meridian crew.

A lot of people, including both fans of brit hop and fans of grime, refuse to accept grime as hiphop.172.159.248.201 19:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael Ray wrote: I would speculate that Grime is influenced by Hip Hop only by the fact that is has people rapping over the music, but the music itself is from Garage. Garage and Hip Hop from the UK both coexisted, and UK hip hop still exists and it does not sound anything like Grime. It sounds like Hip Hop. Grime music is "rave" music.


 * Grime is a sub genre of hip hop drum and bass and garage but is constantly changing to incorparate many different musical styles (check out roll deep's in at the deep end) but the main thing is that theres hard core rap in it tht is the starting point and artists can go anywhere from there so theres no point tryna define it coz wot it is now isnt wot its gunna b tomotrrow!!!!!! Ps mike skinner GRIME? wtf (posted by MC NAH MAN yorkshire)

grime is in fact a moving target, based on a set of styles, and a genuine european development. not known enough is the role of grime videos on local cable tv. so maybe, instead of naming it "stateside" as if this genre would spread out globally like "house music" did, it would be better to speak here of US grime as one speaks of UK hiphop. it is likely that grime has an influence on existing production which then becomes more "grimey", which is not to be misunderstood with the original or it's "karaoke versions" :) added also a few useful sources, the main blog for grime and a source to download legitimate DJ sets from an international grimeparty... let's not put record labels into the list for obious reasons. --Pitsch 17:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Straight Flush
Okay, just makin sure but ain't that track Twista rapped on called Straight Flush by Low Deep? by the way, pitsch, i live in the states so I call it alternative hip hop. I'm not gonna edit the article but there are more Grime MC's that need to be mentioned like Kano, Mike Skinner, L.Man, N Double A...... and that allstar producers riddim (highly flammable). mention producers like davinche, skepta, big ED, danny weed etc....

answer: "Straight Flush" is the name of the instrumental version that came out last year on the underground label Colourful State. "What We Do" is the full vocal version out now on Gana Records. Kray Twinz put the whole thing together and bought the credit rights.

List of grime artists
I started a list of grime MCs, DJs, and producers. Please add to it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grime_artists

Grime's Tempo?
I'm quite proficient with most styles of music & pop music history. . . but I'm not that familiar with Grime, so bear with me. But the following introductory sentence is so open-ended & vague that it borders on nonsense:

"Grime's tempo varies between 68 and 150 beats per minute."

That's similar to saying "Sports cars can travel between 2 and 300 miles per hour."

I'd recommend that someone who knows more about this genre either edit the sentence or remove it.

grimes tempo is 140-145 bpm usualy

standard kid united kingdome

Most grime songs I hear are closer to 120bpm to 145bpm.172.159.248.201 20:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

- The typical tempo is 140BPM, an explanation to this would be that the commonly used software by the genre's producers 'Fruityloops/FL Studio' opens up with the tempo already set at this, however earlier producers e.g. Youngstar/Musical Mobb, did not use the software so it is possible that this is not the origin.

Sort it out
This whole article is extremley elitist, mainly written by someone attempting to make a rather unoriginal point about commercialism. Could someone with more knowledge on the subject tidy it up in a more neutral manner? Adamshappy 01:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Not strictly true, because I added a a couple of paragraphs to the main article, so it's not been written by one person.--Escaper7 11:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

what idiot posted their lame ass myspace link in the middle of the article?

POV
POV tag added because this needs a total copyedit, restructure and neutrality overhaul beyond the simple cleanup tag. The worst offenders are sentences like: "The name Grime was coined by people who have no understanding of the current social need for "untouched" creative art within the UK "inner city" communities, which consists of a predominantly young black population." - That is not encyclopaedic text. The article is riddled with similar stuff. I will have a go at it at some point. Jdcooper 16:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It needs more than that - it needs to be edited into actual English. I can't understand a fucking word this shit says. It even lacks a clear definition - get someone who's never heard of "grime" before to read that, then ask them what "grime" is. They'll be none the wiser, and maybe even less clear than before.--211.74.4.35 15:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
OK, i have done an extensive rewrite of this article, keeping as much factual information i could and restructuring it significantly. The major casualty was the POV original research essay about the name and what it should be, and who calls it what, apart from that most of the information is kept pretty much the same. I would ask that if people disagree with anything I've done, please discuss it here before reverting, that is much more constructive and useful. Otherwise, comments? Jdcooper 17:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fantastic job, much improved. I do think that some of the statements need verifying "The emergence of grime is intrinsically connected to its origins on UK pirate radio..." How do we know this or check this, who says so? verifiability.  it may be in one of the linked websites but. It's still a whole load better.--Escaper7 07:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)  nb:  I've tidied up some of the links and added one note

North Amerikan Grime??
wwhere on earth did that section go? I remember I started up with that section... You know there is a grime station in Hamilton, Ontario Canada? and DJ Whoa-B in Chicago? And the BIG crew i beleive it is in New York? who deleted that section? put it back up —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.56.123.110 (talk • contribs) 1 Aug 2006.


 * Obviously anyone can edit articles so you can't just tell someone to 'put it back up'. Incidentally I didn't remove it, but if it's a subject you have knowledge of, why not start a new article, or go back through your own contributions and cut and paste your section into a new sub-section... but the article is about Grime not North American Grime so maybe best to start off a new article. Escaper7 10:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is (or at least was) a section on regional variations, probably best to go there, but please source any additions you make regarding notable local scenes, because this article suffers terribly from vanity and unverifiability. Jdcooper 11:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Clean up work
Can someone source this as fact, then stick it back into the article please: ''Grime, respective to certain areas of London, noticeably in the South East of the Thames, is becoming more and more popular, with amateur artists and 'krews' spitting verses on behalf of their members and commonly dissing other areas, usually resulting in a widespread battle, however not always between zones. e.g. Dizzee Rascal vs Crazy Titch...Shystie vs Lady Fury.''

It's an interesting point but if you knew nothing about the music or the culture, would you understand this? Escaper7 10:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

True Definition
Whats all the stuff about drum n bass and dancehall etc. and the hip hop?

Grime is when RnB fused with garage (2step), yet no mention of RnB. The drum n bass etc. aspects was the miscatergorisation of sub genre, instead of giving it the correct garage sub genre people branded it as Grime. These days you will notice not many grime tunes have the RnB kick and snare sounds etc. but more electronica etc. No wonder why the scene hasn't moved forward, no one has a clue of what it is.

- Grime is not when RnB fused with garage, because garage was closer to RnB back when DJ Luck and MC Neat were making it. Grime is when the sound turned darker, after people like So Solid started making music. The whole RnB thing I assume you were talking about would be the old drum samples that were used, but that was purely due to the software that everyone used (Fruityloops). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.159.72 (talk) 21:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Grime in Tottenham?
Can somebody help us out over on the Tottenham article? We have a paragraph about Grime which has become controvercial and we don't really know enough about Grime to tell if it is legitimate or not. We have been talking about it on Talk:Tottenham but not really getting anywhere. Can somebody advise us on a few things: --DanielRigal 00:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Is Grime particularly and specifically associated with Tottenham? I am sure that there is Grime in Tottenham but is Tottenham a notable key area for Grime?
 * Are JME and Skepta particularly notable artists? Are they the most notable Grime artists in Tottenham?
 * Do you think the paragraph is an honest reflection of the significance of Grime to Tottenham or is it just an attempt to raise the profile of those artists? Should we keep it, change it or get rid of it?


 * Grime is not associated with Tottenham, so it does not deserve its own special paragraph. Many other neighbourhoods such as Bow and Brixton have provided more grime artists than Tottenham, and therefore their contribution to the grime scene is greater. The paragraph is just for self-promotion. Mkimemia 03:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

And yet JME, Skepta, and the boy betta know label are some of the biggest names in grime? Fitz41 22:32, 25 July 2008 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.242.189 (talk)

Boy Better Know are definately significant in Grime at the moment, as they hold probably 3 of the most known grime MCs being Skepta, JME and Wiley - but they don't really represent Tottenham. Tottenham is significant as it is the home to the (now off air) pirate radio station Heat FM. Tottenham is also home to the grime MC Chipmunk who has recently entered the top 40 charts and last year won a MOBO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.159.72 (talk) 21:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Elitism
Wikipedia is for tools, seriously yoos can be all academic and scientific-like about subjects you know half-shit about. 'source this source that' blimey Grime is largely underground and even its myspace fanbase is in relative popularity to other stuff. If you want to find a source LISTEN to the music and get with the scene, i know the grime industry ive met JME and had tea with the Dizzee truth is grime music producers are scare with middle class 15 year olds producing beats for a recognised name to spit for it because there is a limited amount of talented music producers (mostly to do with lack of technology availabile and not everyone can afford a laptop/keyboard and software. Few kids who do don't get in touch with Grime artists unless they dedicate their lives to myspace promotion). Seriously yea, you can't source open-mic nights and street mc battles with verbatim cos the Grime scene is in the roots man! I can't source for shit but theres a few Grime websites up who will know what I'm saying, you internet-academics can't talk shit about subjects you don't know. And anyone who posts about Grime online ain't representative anyhow cos the real fans don't tout it online, they spit from the street spirit not the mind. You just gotta trust judgement because this article don't shed no light on what Grime really is about --86.18.156.77 11:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Your problems with this article are also the problems with a lot of other articles, and obviously most of us completely understand your frustration from time to time. The problem with wikis and "trusting judgement" is how to tell whose judgement is right. How does someone from Brazil know who is right if two kids from East London differ over some detail on this article? That is why we need sources, it might hold us back sometimes but its the way it is, and the best way. Jdcooper 05:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "And anyone who posts about Grime online ain't representative " to be honest, who cares? Stupid music for stupid people.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.79.94 (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Can somebody check this?
I'm pretty certain this sentence is wrong

"Examples of the sound can be detected in the late 20th century, with tracks by So Solid Crew, More Fire Crew's "Oi", and Sticky's "Boo" "

I dont remember So Solid being popular before 2001, and that more fire crew song was released in 2002 or 2003 (i dont remember) so surely it should read early 21st century, not late 20th??

BTW I might have the years confused, if someone knows the correct years, tell me. Fernoe

- You are correct, all mentioned songs/artists became popular after the turn of the century —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.159.72 (talk) 02:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Regional scenes

 * I think we should leave that part of the infobox out. Anywhere where people make grime does not constitute a "regional scene", but the people who live there and like it will inevitably consider it one. Then they will add it to wikipedia. That is certainly true of Nottingham, where I live. In Nottingham Nottingham is considered the capital of UK grime, but this is objectively not the case, nor does anyone else agree. The truth appears to be that every large urban area has at least some artists making grime, because it is a viral underground urban genre. Naming regional scenes is therefore fairly futile. Obviously if somewhere in particular gets a lot of attention at any point, with lots of media coverage, we can mention it, but I don't think anywhere is at that level yet, except maybe London, which is mentioned in the origins bit. Jdcooper 16:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Lady Sovereign
Although a UK artist, has never done grime and now does pop music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.187.204 (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sov's early output on pirate radio stations was certainly grime, however much her style has changed. Some of the early rap battles she did, including a lot of stuff with Shystie et al, was seminal early grime, and I will find sources to back that up next chance i get. Jdcooper (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sample
I've included a sample by Dizzee Rascal as a ex(s)ample of the genre. Does anybody know of a (decent?) Grime artist that releases under a free license? That might be better than having a copyrighted, fair-use sample. Poeloq (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about any artists that's under a free license (doubt there's any decent ones who is), but didn't there use to be a sample of I Luv U? That sample represents the genre alot better than Pussyole, which isn't very grimey at all. 85.166.32.191 (talk) 17:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Hip hop crossover"
==Hip Hop Crossover== Some argue that Grime, although related to hip hop is very different and British in its ways and content to avoid seeming parasitical. Some media labeled Black British Grime artists have philosophically tied their struggle to that of African Americans in order to claim hip hop as their own since hip hop is seen as music that grew out of the struggle of urban African Americans. Using this philosophical ideal as a stage they have attempted to crossover into mainstream hip hop and attempt to access the U.S. hip hop market. Such artist self identify as hip hop/rap artist when dealing with the U.S. market although the media labeled them as Grime artist just by the mere fact that they are U.K. based. These artists thus have strayed from rapping over Grime beat patterns and preferred to rap over distinctly American hip hop beats. In this context they risk being labeled as sellouts in their home land of the U.K.

At the same time, there are many connections between grime music and dancehall reggae, especially because reggae and hip hop are so interconnected. Because of England's position as a former colonial power, controlling much of the West Indies including Jamaica, and the long relationship between the U.K. and the U.S. it seems inevitable that through pre- and post-colonial migration patterns many of the producers and consumers of black music in London would be of Caribbean descent, or at least exposed to the culture as it has been transferred to the neighborhoods of London. Jeff Chang writes that U.K. music critic Kodwo Eshun felt black music had been "shackled," a clear reference to the legacy of colonialism and slavery that informs much of reggae, hip hop, and now even grime. This attests to the interconnection of all three styles of music, due to patterns of migration, forced or otherwise, and attempts at localization and authenticity. New York Times music critic Kelefa Sanneh notes that at many grime shows, MC's will interrupt tracks, asking the DJ to rewind the backing track or to go on to the next one. Sanneh notes, "This is a grime tradition borrowed from dancehall reggae". On one grime blog, the author goes from critiquing grime artists to dancehall artists in the same page, crossing between British slang and Jamaican patois. When discussing grime artist Jammer, he notes "I love all these little fleeting connections between grime and reggae. When Goodz or Trim just drop a line into their lyrics about their Dads doing stuff with soundsystems or whatever it just reinforces the links which are self evident. “Lyric Maker, from England not Jamaica” indeed…". These connections between grime, reggae, and hip hop are part and parcel of the historical connection between the U.K., U.S., and the West Indies. Musicians are slipping bits of history into the pot, and mixing up new and old.

As far as I can see, this section is inappropriate for the article in a number of ways: 1) It is original research; though sources are provided for some claims, for a lot of the other, more abstract and wafty claims, they are not. Even the sourced claims are just references to papers in journals; that kind of discussion in no way implies consensus or accuracy, just one academic's opinion, whereas in this passage such claims are presented as fact.

2) Secondly, a lot of it is not specific to grime, and applies instead to the relationship between British and American urban music in general, or how hip-hiop influenced music has changed over time. To relate this issue back to the first point, such matters are new topic in Hip-Hop Studies, and the only way we could cover such issues would be via a horribly cagey and vacuous discussion based on single academics' opinions.

3) Which gives rise to the third problem, I don't really see what this section says. That there are similarities between grime and dancehall/reggae? That's covered in another section. That such similarities are very widespread throughout black music? That's off-topic for this article. That such similarities are a direct sociological result of the African diaspora and post-colonial attitudes? That's original research. Not to mention the fact that some of the sources here are taken entirely out of context (Kalefa Sanneh's quotation, for example). Its possible that there are bits of this section which could be re-introduced to the article, but I've brought it here for the time being for discussion so it can be sorted out. Jdcooper (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

"A genre is a genre. Why merge?"
i think it is fine to have flowers on the floor, and tapestry on the wall.

Origins section
I have removed the following paragraph as it's poorly worded, formatted and consequently hard to follow. If there's an SME in the house who knows what it's supposed to say, please butcher it approrpiately.

== Attributing Grime's origins to Wiley == Remember that when So Solid Crew and More Fire Crew, released albums, they were regarded as garage (as in 2step) acts. However, when Boy in da Corner (2003) and Treddin' on Thin Ice(2004) got released, they were regarded as grime acts. Roll Deep's In At The Deep End(2005) then followed, which at this time, Dizzee Rascal had left Roll Deep. According to NME, Wiley created grime, and without him Dizzee Rascal wouldn't of had his sound as he mentored him. Tincy Stryder would be no where without Wiley.