Talk:Grindcore/Archive 1

Some noise artists
Obviously there are a bunch of noise artists who stray into the grindcore realm, some more than others. The Gerogerigegege are already mentioned in the article. I was wondering whether a nod to groups like Melt Banana might be in order. I actually have a Terrorizer source for this, but also appreciate I'm probobably more inclusive than most on this page ;-). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 05:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Influence Section
The influence section is very detailed as it is, stop shortening it, or at least give just cause as to why you may feel it should be halved.

Noisecore
Why does noisecore redirect here? I always thought noisecore refered more to bands like Melt Banana rather than grind. Frumpleorz 18:07 15 May 2006


 * Not really. Noisecore actually refers to noise-infused grindcore such as Anal Cunt or Meat Shits.  Melt Banana is called noise rock, typically.

my reply

 * ''Yeah, alot of people seem confused about 'noisecore' as a genre, it has been a legit 'musical' form since the mid 80's with bands like (early) Anal Cunt, 7 Minutes Of Nausea, Arsedestroyer, Deche-Charge, Sore Throat etc...all blasting away like a sloppy offspring of 'Grindcore' & 'Noise'. One could argue that if the bands where a little bit more talented with their instruments they would more than likely be playing 'Grindcore' instead :) Now here is where the problem starts....over the last few years alot of harsher 'metalcore' bands and slighty off the wall rock bands [ex. Melt Banana] have been dubbed 'noisecore' by lazy ass journalist as if they've invented a whole new genre. Not realising that it already is a proper genre.

Hope this helps a bit''. Sludgegrinder 01:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Electro Hippies
do Electro Hippies belong in the list?
 * I would say so, but my view of grindcore seems to be pretty open, compared to others.
 * Electro Hippies sound a lot more like Heresey or Concrete Sox and other UK Crossover bands. They are certainly a precursor to grindcore, but probably shouldn't be included in the movement. Tombride 23:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't think so, and removed them. Changes here get reverted awfully fast though, without any discussion. Meaningful username 21:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What is Grindcore
Well, I don't mean to rock the boat here, but I find this definition quite surprising. Anal cunt? Not that it matters anyway, but my definition, though maybe outdated, would include bands like Godflesh and Dessecting Table; or generally, bands that have a deeper grinding feel to their riffs. Of course, operating under the assumption that Mick Harris invented the Moniker, I have to throw my hands up, as I don't think of Napalm Death as Grindcore (especially not their newer stuff). Anyway, anyone wanna straighten me out on this?


 * ND's new stuff is mainly death metal (although they're returning to more of their original sound on their latest albums, and in the last show of their's that I attended they played mostly their oldest songs), but their eariest albums were grindcore. Just listen to Scum or FETO.  If you don't consider that grindcore but you still consider Godflesh as grindcore, I can't say that I understand your POV.  Even the newer Godflesh albums don't sound much like Street Cleaner which is the type of material I would think you're referring to when you call Godflesh grind. millerc 20:42, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
 * id disagree, i saw ND about 2 weeks ago, and they grinded the shit out of me. i really think people overstate the death metal-ness of ND
 * I think it is appropiate to classifiy the first two NP albums as Grindcore, but not he later albums; same applies to Carcass. Godflesh is not very grindcore sounding to me.  Tombride 23:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, the original meaning of grindcore was either the fast, blasting music of artists like Napalm Death or the slow, crushing music of artists such as Swans, but the latter sort of fell off. Godflesh is sort of an 'honorary grindcore' band.

Godflesh are just not an grindcore band and grindcore is not slow, crushing! If you really said that, not joking, you are in all seriousness talking about Sludge not Grind!!! And what the hell means honorary grindcore band???????????????????
 * The term "grindcore" was originally invented by Mick Harris in 1984 to describe the slow, crushing music of bands like Swans. Napalm Death didn't describe their music as grindcore until 1985 or 1986. -- Metal of  Head  19:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

proto-grindcore
What exactly is "proto-grindcore" meant to mean? We don't refer to Elvis' work as "proto-rock", etc. You might well be one of the earliest / precursors, but I think trying to create the term "proto-grindcore" to refer to those who started things off is just a little over the top. Achromatic 11:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

thrash metal vs hardcore punk influence
The only problem I have with this definition is the part where it says thrash metal influenced the genre. It came almost entirely from hardcore, apart from a couple of crossover artists like DRI. I would change it, but it seems every time I edit something, it gets edited back again.


 * Well, ok. I'm the one who wrote that part, and I think it is pretty accurate.  I agree that the earliest grind bands had quite a bit of hardcore punk influence (which is why they all had political lyrics), but to be completly honest it wasn't long before the metal influences were introduced.  Just listen to the second half of Scum, FETO, or even World Downfall by Terrrorizer and compare to the first half of Scum.  Big difference.  When I first viewed the article some months ago, and before I started making edits, the article said that grindcore was influenced mainly by death metal.  Which considering the two came about during the same time period, would definitely be incorrect (unless you're one of those people who consider bands like Slayer to be death metal -- they sound like they have much more in common with thrash to me).  The article originally didn't even mention hardcore punk, peace punk or crust punk.  The death metal article also made the claim that grindcore was simply a subgenere of death metal, until I changed it.  A lot of people who prefer metal to punk just don't pay any attention to the history.


 * There are still bands around today that are more influenced by hardcore than by metal (e.g. Cripple Bastards, Agathocles, Phobia, Rot). These aren't the most popular bands that have been labeled as grindcore, and generally we have to compromise with fans of other bands. millerc 20:42, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I suppose if you look right back at the earliest grindcore bands, Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror were mainly influenced by stuff like Discharge, while Seige had a more metal feel to it. Still, I think the Thrash thing is overstated. Vim Fuego


 * Siege had a more metal feel to it??? I'd have to disagree, I think Siege is the closest thing to hardcore punk that you listed (although ENT might fit into that category too).  But all I've heard of Siege is their Drop Dead demo.  I'm not sure if they ever released much more than that.  It would be great to get more about the historical connections to punk on this page, instead of arguing about this thrash metal thing.  Heck, its only one line in the entire article! If you're that concerned about making the point that it has punk influences, than just add to the article.  millerc 02:59, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

OK, perhaps I have Siege confused with someone else. Probably Repulsion. Sorry. And like you said, it's only one line.Vim Fuego


 * Maybe so. Repulsion sounds more like metal.  millerc 22:04, 12 May 2004 (UTC)


 * As for the whole... hardcore punk VS thrash metal thing. The first bands to play grindcore were the Dutch band Larm and the bands Hellhouse and Cyanamid. Oddly enough, the Beastie Boys had an early hand in it as well, having played blastbeats even before DRI did. Cyanamid/Hellhouse/Lärm were all pure hardcore punk bands. Cyanamid actually only recorded like 2 songs that count as grind (on their Stop The World 7" released in '84). Hellhouse was around in '83. Anyway, there was NO thrash metal on ANY of these songs and with bands like Lärm having song titles like "Metal Attitude Sucks" I'd be surprised if they took any hints from metal at the time. So yes, the thrash metal influences actually came much later. Another "early" grind band was Fear Of God that didn't really have any thrash metal in there. Obviously, there are plenty of grindcore bands that have thrash metal in there (Insect Warfare, the Earache ones, etc), but thrash riffing is NOT what makes grindcore what it is.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.208.40.14 (talk) 21:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Shortest song: Napalm Death song "You Suffer"
the Napalm Death song "You Suffer" holds the world record for the shortest song ever, clocking in at 0.75 seconds By whose record keeping? I can name dozens of "songs" that are shorter, mostly off of the Cripple Bastards' 95 Flashback di Massacro (94 songs in ~ 15 min), and the new Agoraphobic Nosebleed 3" cd/10" lp Altered States of America (100 songs in just under 30 min). millerc 01:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

The thing about "You Suffer" is actually in the Guinness Book Of Records. So is Brutal Truth for the shortest music video, a 2.5 second clip for "Collateral Damage". Vim Fuego


 * I couldn't find anything about "You Suffer" on the official Guinness Book Of Records website... Ukuk 24 June 2004

I'm pretty sure it's in the 2003 edition of the book. I haven't checked the latest one yet. Vim Fuego


 * It's not in the 2003 edition, but I do remember reading about the Brutal Truth music video. I believe it was the 2002 edition, but I haven't looked at that yet.  Not only that, but what about Anal Cunt's 5643 Song EP, which has 5643 songs in under 15 minutes?  There are definitely shorter songs there, as each "song" averages 0.16 seconds. --G VOLTT 21:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I'm not being openminded enough, but I don't see how a sound that's less than a second can qualify as a "song". Tmorrisey October 8 2005

It has lyrics (You suffer, but why?) and chord changes, so apparently it technically counts. I don't really know too much about what defines a song, but this is supposed to count. Vim Fuego

The thing about Anal Cunt's 5643 song EP was that the songs were overlapped, so no one has a clue (except maybe Seth Puntnam) how long each song is. My version of Agoraphobic Nosebleed's Altered States Of America cd is less than 20 minutes by the way. The song(s) that i feel should be in the shortest song ever is any song by the band 7 Minutes Of Nausea. Their release You're Father Was A Poser was a 7" record that 274 songs on the first side and 278 songs on the second side. I don't actually own the record so I don't know exactly how long the entire record was, but 7"ers rarely have more than 8 minutes on a side.

Millerc I think you're cofused a little. That's not 75 seconds, that's a point seventy five.

Grindcore in general has very short songs, but if you cross over into the territory of noisecore, a sub-genre of grindcore, the songs are unbelievably short. For example, 7 Minutes of Nausea have records with over 500 songs on them, complete with lyric sheets. The band Aunt Mary released a 45 RPM 7" called "Not Just Ordinary Ping Pong Ball" that has 600 songs in less than 10 minutes. On most of Deche-Charge's tapes, hundreds of songs are included. The s/t 7" released on Regurgitated Semen Records claims to have around 1024 songs, and the recently released 7" split with Permanent Death has over 120. But the release that has the most songs (to my knowledge) is a tape of Meat Shits that compiles all the stuff they have released on Regurgitated Semen Records onto one tape and it has 1691 songs.

local grindcore bands
Why removing local grindcore bands ? What if articles exist about grindcore local bands ? Aren't they worth being mentioned ? Does it make the article less readable ? Ukuk 24 June 2004

5643 Song EP
"American grindcore band Anal Cunt, a project of Seth Putnam, has recorded an EP called 5643 Song EP which, amazingly, contains 5643 songs in less than 15 minutes." - This is obvious bullshit as it would mean the songs have an average length of 0.2 seconds at most!


 * They overdub them on top of each other. :-) - Omegatron 17:41, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * I would like to see some more info on that EP, as I have never heard of it before despite Anal Cunt being a fairly familiar band to me. Why is it not in the discography on Anal Cunt's page? Quirk 19:32, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's all true. I guess it's not on the Anal Cunt article because no one added it.  If you head over to Seth's page at http://www.sethputnam.com/ and check the discography and it's listed.  As to why you've never heard of it, I can't answer that one :) I haven't heard it but apparently it is actually 5643 songs.  I read something about it (can't remember where) that discussed how they could only put it on vinyl and using some special process to actually layer the songs over the top of each other MrHate 04:15, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I actually have the mp3s of this album on my computer. If you'd be interested in hearing it I can send it to you. It is also on said website. The Metro 21:30, March 31, 2006 (UTC)

Notable bands?
I haven't heard of quite a few of the bands listed as 'Notable bands' which is not much of a suprise, though I have to argue that we remove the ones that don't have Wikipedia articles. Mainly to combat the problem of people adding bands that they personally like as opposed to actual notable bands. The other problem lies in the theory that if there's no Wikipedia article, they obviously aren't notable for anything, especially for being forerunners in their genre. If no one has any problem, I'll remove the bands with red links. MrHate 04:15, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * removing the likes of Terrorizer, Repulsion and Blood is certainly a bad idea. And see red links as a to do list. Otherwise the links may be wrong (there *is* a Terrorizer link and there *should* be a Repulsion list) Spearhead 16:07, 17 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Its almost laughable, some of the bands that actually have articles are less well known than Terrorizer, Repulsion, and Blood. I've removed bands from the list before when it became too long.  If you think you're enough of an expert on the subject be bold and just delete the bands that you don't think warrant a listing.


 * BTW, I've alway thought of Napalm Death, Carcass, and Terrorizer (and maybe Assuck, but I'm just partial to they're style) as the "big three" ("big four"?) of grindcore; sort of like how there's a big four of thrash metal. I recall an article written by Felix Havoc (operator of havoc records, drummer for Code 13) written for MMR where he states his opinion on this.  Does anyone know anymore about this, I wouldn't want to be blamed for original research. Maybe we can separate these bands from the rest, to give their own listing millerc 22:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i would also add brutal truth to the list of the big 3 (or 4.) the terrorizer album "world downfall" is influential but it was more of a side project than a band.

also, as u will c below, grind-core is NOT dead. it is still evolving. so how can u not mention Discordance Axis, Nasum and Pig Destroyer. They are to Grindcore what Cryptopsy and Nile is to Death Metal. I agree they have not invented anything but they r invovled in the evolution of the sound. Also I can agree Pig Destroyer does sound a bit like Brutal Truth but listen to their latest album b4 u disagree. But Nasum and Discordance Axis r totally original. Of course u may add more bands to this list but i dont think these 3 can be subtracted.

Narcosis (band) certainly deserve a mention after seeing them several times live.--PopUpPirate 23:43, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

AxCx are not/nor ever were a grindcore band. Their childish and stupid take on a real genre of extreme music, is no more then a sour piss-take on noisegrind. Sorry!

Re Narcosis again - they've been on Terrorizer several times, dunno why the article got deleted, surely they're worthy of one? --PopUpPirate 01:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I would add Genital Masticator information to the site. It's mentioned here: "Noisecore: structure-free grindcore, with feedback, hateful lyrics and general disregard for musicianship. For example Anal Cunt, Genital Masticator, Rutatron.", what you think about it? Wekenk

Brazil is mentioned as one of the birthplaces of this genre, but I don't see any Brazilian band names in the article, or maybe just can't figure out a mentioned one as being Brazilian. Could it be Ratos de Porão (aka R.D.P. or RxDxPx)? Early punk, very fast, very screamed, loud grinding guitars and at least one song ("Caos") is 2 seconds long. Any other bands? (Anonymous, Brazil, May 2 2006).

I wouldn't classify Impetigo as a typical grindcore band. They were very influential no doubt about that, but the list is a bit strange. Meaningful username 12:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The list of notable bands seems to have grown some quite obscure bands, from barely listing anything at all. Should be cut down. Maybe some kind of consensus could be reached, since this section seems to be going back and forth? Meaningful Username 20:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Norse Core?
Some of these "Minor and Related Generes" are getting absurd. Darkthrone is black metal, they even call themselves such. Although a connection with grindcore might explain why they're one of the few black metal bands I like, I still wouldn't call them grindcore.

"Razorgrind", "Grind&Roll", "Chaoscore", and arguably "Hydrogrind", and "Mincecore" are marketing terms. The only ones that use them are their inventors and record labels. The only exception I can think of is that Agathocles invented the term "mincecore" and it has been used by other bands such as Rot (while IMO Rot sounds more like the Cripple Bastards, who don't use the term, than they sound like Agathocles). millerc 22:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are the likes of Gorgoroth doing in this Norsecore genre? Funeral Mist are the only band that I have heard ever described as Norsecore. As for merging, all genres must be kept separate.

I find the entire "norsecore" article to be ridiculous: Marduk, Dark Funeral, Tsjuder, Funeral Mist, Gorgoroth, Limbonic Art, and especially Darkthrone are not "black metal grind." Regardless, if it must remain, it should rest as its own article.

Norse core is just another silly pseudo subgenre of metal that needs to be removed from WP. I am against merging as the article does not provide and useful content. I propose to redirect it to grindcore or black metal. Spearhead 23:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Norsecore refers to bands which play fast black metal such as Marduk & Dark Funeral, the term doesn't refer to grindcore and is usually derogatory.
 * The above comment was added by me on this date, 18:01, 27 February 2006 - Before I had this account. --XdiabolicalX 18:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is Norsecore? I've never seen anything like it referred to on any metal site. Dark Funeral is a black metal band. Neologisms, original research and various local cruft like these terms have no place on Wikipedia - I can call Dolly Parton's music for Squigglywaggle and claim it is a subgenre of squigglycore, but that does not make it true nor notable. Joffeloff 17:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't you think about reading the stuff above before posting? I said "Norsecore refers to bands which play fast black metal such as Marduk & Dark Funeral, the term doesn't refer to grindcore and is usually derogatory." XdiabolicalX 19:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I googled chaoscore and almost every band i got was a mathcore band. So i'll put it on mathcore as an alternative name.π₰₯  ĬLʡ  $Φǚɭ  ђ&micro;πt₴ŗ  ₯₰π 10:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

misc. genres
Why not add "subgenres" like razorgrind and norsecore into a miscellaneous genre category? Seperate the minor genres that actually have more than one band in it with miscellaneous genres that are only used to describe the music of a specific?

newer grindcore bands omitted; no indication of grindcore's future
in the death metal section they do discuss the newer bands of this decade like Nile and Cryptopsy. yet here in this article there is no mention of the newer bands of this decade like:
 * Nasum,
 * Pig Destroyer,
 * Discordance Axis

I know it is arguable which band is important and which isnt but without mentioning these bands u r ignoring this decade i feel. i know their omission is not as serious as omitting ND, Carcass or Brutal Truth but i have seen other online articles mentioning these 3 bands as being the foremost modern grindcore bands. of course i may have, arguably, left a few out. what do you all think?
 * I agree, and have added a short list of what I called "second generation bands. It keeps getting removed, by IP-adress user(s). We should have a discussion about what bands should be included, but we should all be able to agree that Nasum should be included in an article about grindcore!? Meaningful username 20:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for the addition of Nasum or Discordance Axis, though I wouldn't call Nasum a "newer" or "modern" grindcore band seeing as they've been around for quite awhile. Pig Destroyer on the other hand is barely a grindcore band. Music wise, riff wise, they're not grindcore. More-so (IMO) modern hardcore, yes with grindcore influence, but does not represent grindcore music pasrt or future.

Pig Destroyer do sound grind, your just deaf. They have grinding guitars shown by the nearly constant palm muting (grinding). They have blast beats. They Have an obviously hardcore influenced sound, and an obviouly thrash metal influenced sound. also they sound similar enough to early napalm death. I have no idea how you can say their more like modern hardcore, thats simply not true. modern hardcore has gone the root of lots of beat-downs. -Lester Drake 00:30 03-03-06 ---

The real question is: are YOU deaf? Pig Destroyer sounds like early Napalm Death? Are you kidding me? A grind riff here and there does not make you a grindcore band. Thats the equivalent of adding your typical metalcore band to the thrash page because they steal Slayer riffs. They are NOT a grindcore band. I don't believe I've ever even seen them classified as such. As a matter of fact, Relapse was comparing them to Slayer.

-- What about PORNOGRIND? There's an awful lot of bands out there who employ lots of pornographic material, from imagery, to samples, to song titles and other themes, such as Gronibard (myspace.com/gronibard), stuff like COCK AND BALL TORTURE etc... I am sure that there are tonnes out there!

Nasum and Discordance Axis were around in the early '90s. DA released splits with fucking Capitalist Casualties. As for Pig Destroyer, they're not grindcore but just a grindcore and sludge metal influenced thrash metal band of sorts.

The reason there shouldn't really be a "second generation" list of bands is because 1) most of them don't sound much different than first grindbands and 2) lots of them are too obscure for a wiki page.Seeofseaof 12:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * As I have said before, your opinion of whether Pig Destroyer are grindcore or not is utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is what sources you can cite. I'm citing Albert Mudrian and Relapse website to suggest that Pig Destroyer are in fact grind and as such should remain on the list of bands. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Brutal Death Metal
Would brutal death metal count as a grindcore genre? Technically it's death metal with grindcore influence.

grindcore doesn't belong to any metal genres. it's fast punk. music is so similar with death metal but it is not death or thrash metal. lyrics are completely different than thrash metal,like death metal. brutal death metal and death/grind bands are similar only with the music. i advice you to read "nasum" and "disgorge" lyrics. i just mean it can not be an influence.

While Grindcore did once have a significant following, largely thanks to John Peel's espousal of Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror, I feel it is not popular enough now to have any new bands listed as particularly influential - most people's memories of the movement will consist of the older bands. While Grindcore is not dead, it is a fairly obscure genre now.

Obscure, no. Overlooked, yes. There are numbers of bands STILL playing grindcore. Avoid looking at money-oriented labels such as Relapse as a source for this such genre. It's just not marketable right now. Unless you sound like Pig Destroyer that is. As for the original question, in now way should "brutal death metal" count as a sub-genre of grindcore. Even the absurdly titles genre "death/grind" holds no real link to grindcore music, except for maybe FEW notable bands who can pull such a sound off (ie Blood).

Grindcore (punks) vs. Black/Death Metal (metalheads)
One thing I think everyone can agree on here is that no matter how hard we try to draw the line between the punks extreme music vs. metalheads extreme music is that many Metalheads I know will walk up to me and go "listen to this Death Metal band!" and I will listen, and say "Wait, This is CATTLE DECAPITATION! This is a GRINDCORE BAND!" and the metalhead is all like "WHAT? Grindcore?"... They can't tell the difference, and one thing is for sure. The fusions between punk and metal have become so blurred that you get two persons listening to the same/similar sound, yet they fight each other over the name and sound/origins.

Extreme Scenes: Punk-->Crust Hardcore (punk)-->Grindcore Thrash Metal-->Black/Death Metal (Thrash metal is influenced by hardcore punk) Metalcore-->Deathcore Heavy Metal-->Speed Metal

What's to do with the madness? We know that both Crust and Grindcore have the same ideologies of the political... Black/Death Metal seems to push the joys of satanism (black)/gore (death) in a mostly fictional element. Deathcore (Death Metal-Hardcore) is taking death metal realistically (and adding breakdowns). As for Heavy Metal (true metal) it just has Speed Metal. 198.189.164.206 21:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)CRC

Yeah... well your metalhead friends are stupid or what? Grindcore and Death Metal MAY sound alike but they're very different from each other, its like comparing Sex pistols or Black FlaG with Shit 182. Besides death metal is very complex, thing that grindcore lacks completly. And Cattle Decapitation was grindcore, now they're death metal

Genrebox vs footer templates
As a fusion genre probably could have both (or neither) genrebox templates or better both footer templates. Footer templates would appear as

Paul foord 10:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * i'm of the opinion that genre pages should have their own genrebox at the top right (not their parent genre's box), but have their categoty footers at the bottom. the only problem with this is the inconsistency in footer style but that's an issue i'm sure WikiProject Music genres will get sorted out at some point. --MilkMiruku 13:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

'political grindcore', Nasum
Nasum themselves say; I want to point out that NASUM is in no way a "political band", we are three individuals who all have different views on life and how to live it, we have no political agenda, none of us are that much involved in organized politics, we do not have a message to spread this is from; .. Also a Nasum side-project is Genocide SS which seem to react to this perception and come across as very politically incorrect. Nagelfar 02:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Drum Machine Grind?
Isn't this pretty much the same thing as Cybergrind?

-Not quite. Drum machine grind would be grindcore with a drum machine being used instead of a drummer. Its more of a description than a genre really. Whilst cybergrind does make use of a drum machine it also makes use of lots of effects, and samples. - Lester Drake 00:34 03-03-06


 * Many normal grindcore or related subgenre bands use drum machines, but many of these are not cybergrind.

Content to be merged
Per Articles for deletion/, any useful content [ here] should be merged to |this article. — Mar. 3, '06 [09:29] 

Digigrind
should digigrind have its own section, since its different than cybergrind, and drum machine grind
 * no these are just minor differences... halve thise *grind and *core things are just basic grindcore anyway. WP is full of non-existent metal subgenres, so we do't need more here. Spearhead 18:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

--

theres minor differences in medical conditions and theyre still noted


 * Fine. Then explain how e-grind, cybergrind, digigrind, and drum machine grind are different.  Because the only phrase I ever hear is cybergrind.


 * Let's do the old Google test while we're at it for notability. We have cybergrind (34,300 hits), digigrind (1,190 hits), drum machine grind (1,300 hits), e-grind (3,400 hits) and electrogrind (2,100 hits). I think that's what we call pretty conclusive. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

E-grind Vs Cybergrind
I would say that cybergrind is the more commonly used title, and therefore should be the heading, not e-grind.

I dunno about that, i think electro-grind is probs the most common name for that style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.120.192 (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * See my above comment with Google hits. There is no question that cybergrind is the vastly more common term. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Two Possible Solutions
As far as I can see, there are two possible solutions to this situation, rather than leaving it set for a huge amount of time with no outcome. Cybergrind is noteably different than normal Grind. There is a huuuge difference, so Cybergrind should indeed have it's own page; however there are so many forms of grind, perhaps they should all just be mentioned along with their descriptions on the main Grind wiki page. These are the two apparent choices that I see. --Oinkness 04:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Playing style / sound
The opening paragraph lacks one really simple description - what grind actually sounds like! There are references to other genres but to anyone who hasn't heard them, how are you supposed to know what this music sounds like. Big in albania 18:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Added a brief part about the style hopefully its clear enough.--XdiabolicalX 18:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No. Its not clear enough. Mezmerizer 00:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)Mezmerizer

No popularity?
I think it's misleading to label Grindcore as having absolutely no mainstream popularity. 'Cos after all, what about bands like Napalm Death or Carcass? They're hugely popular within the grind/metal scene, so I think that at least a disclaimer should be thrown in there somewhere...
 * Carcass are most known for their melodic death metal and Napalm Death for their post-1989 albums. You'll never see or hear a song from Reek... or Scum on TV or radio.
 * I broadly agree with you, but it is worth pointing out that the likes of Napalm Death, Carcass, Extreme Noise Terror, Doom and the Electro Hippies all sessions for John Peel on BBC Radio 1 in their grindcore days. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * agree with that

Coining of the term
Now I think it's established that Mick Harris coined the term "grindcore", but when was this? In the '80s? In the '90s? Could someone give a specific year? And what did they call grindcore before there was a word "grindcore"? - Quirk 18:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * To quote from Mudrian's 'Choosing Death' (p.35) again: "[...]Harris even developed the idiom "blast beat" for the wickedly fast 64th notes he played on the snare drum. Additionally, the drummer coined the term "grindcore" to properly represent this rapidly developing new genre of music. "Grindcore came from 'grind', which was the only word I could use to describe Swans after buying their first record in '84," Harris explains. "Then with this new hardcore movement that started to really blossom in '85, I thought 'grind' really fit because of the speed so I started to call it grindcore."" Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Modern Grindcore
The page really doesn't apply to the whole tech-grind thing. Should tech-grind just be put under subgenres? It really bothers me that this hasn't been brought up. And when I say "tech-grind" or "modern grindcore" I mean bands like Destroy All Operating Systems, Daughters, See You Next Tuesday, The Dance Massacre, ect.
 * Yeah, only one of the bands you mentioned actually has an article (where it says they are mathcore), so the whole "tech grind" genre seems dubious at best. While I may not be pedantic enough to question the notability of such an article, there probably are a bunch of people who would. - Quirk 17:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The only people I've met that consider Daughters, Tony Danza..., Ed Gein and others of the sort any form of grindcore are not fans of grindcore. Most of these kids cannot even name Napalm Death's first two albums. 68.47.85.89 05:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed--Inhumer 08:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Things evolve. And I listen to real grindcore too.
 * Quit giving the deathcore/metalcore kids credit for being "progressive". They're fucking not, no matter what you read on their goddamn myspace. Also, when things evolve, you CALL THEM SOMETHING ELSE. That's how we've gotten into these hundreds of sub-genre quagmires in the first place. Hey, I listen to Jonny Cash, Raekwon and Birdflesh, but that doesn't make me NYCHip-hopcountrygrind.
 * I listen to ed gein/daughters/number12, i also listen to pig destroyer and ANb. I've listened to scum and seen Napalm live........but i cant name the second ND abulm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.67.120.192 (talk) 03:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Grindcore's Influence on others
As grindcore is an often misunderstood and under appreicated genre. It might be interesting to add an article on how grindcore has influence other style's. While death metal and grindcore emerged at about the same time seperate from eachother. I would have to say grindcore had a concederable impact on death metal as far as speed and drumwork is concerned. In the late 80's early 90's as the two styles where coming up death metal an already fast and brutal style seemed to get faster once grindcore became more known. Im not sure whether this happend independent of grind or was related or not. I just figured sense Pete Sandoval of Terrorizer went on to join Morbid Angel. It might have been an isolated incident or apart of a larger trend. I was curious if their was other early grind drummers that went on to join death metal bands as well. It would be interesting to state how much impact grind had on death metal and or genres as well. Just a thought .... Halfeatencorpse 01:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The variety of bands that appear on "Requiems of Revulsion" (Carcass tribute) may show some examples of this cross-influence. None of the bands that appear on this early-era Carcass tribute are death-metal adherents, most of the bands have different styles and are easily distinguished from each other.Rubbleater 03:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Powerviolence
What's powerviolence doing here? Powerviolence was a joke term (West Coast Power Violence) Eric Wood made up to label his and his friend's bands, after that, fast hc bands with a fast-as-fuck/slow dynamic were considered "powerviolence" (like Spazz, the best known example of that style). Plus, the description is vague, Lords Of Light don't have a single trace of thrash metal in them but are still totally grindcore. Oh boy. Powerviolence = deleted.Seeofseaof 15:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Powerviolence a joke?
Powerviolence has come to catergoirze a lot of bands, a name used by many bands themselves. Regardless of how the name was invented the term stuck and deleting it wouldn't make sense. While I agree most power violence is bascially just really fast Hardcore Punk bands. The bands and fans don't seem to mind the name powerviolence. Just think of powerviolence as the word used to describe really fast Hardcore punk bands that do it in a certain way. Lampreyofdoom 19:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What? That's not what I said. Again...What I said was, it was originally a joke term, but it's now used to describe fast hardcore band punk bands that switch between fast-as-fuck to slow-as-hell. Powerviolence exists, it just isn't a subgenre of grindcore, and it's not "grindcore stripped from its thrash metal influences" because the first few grindcore bands did not have thrash metal influences (Cyanamid anyone?), nor do a lot of other modern grindcore bands like let's say, Lords Of Light. The first band that could NOW be considered powerviolence (they played powerviolence 4 years before Eric Wood coined the term), Infest, DID have some (minor) thrash metal influences (just listen to Sick-O), so again, the description of "powerviolence is a stripped down subgenre of grindcore" is simply wrong. It's a totally different subgenre of hardcore punk with different roots. It does not belong on the list of grindcore subgenres. Hence why I deleted it from the list of grind subgenres.Seeofseaof 19:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't care about powerviolence being or not being on the page, but Cyanamid and LoL grindcore? More like hardcore punk. Napalm Death and Impetigo, on the other hand, were grindcore groups, and if you can't hear any crossover/thrash metal in their songs, then I don't know what to say. 68.47.1.63 08:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.625thrash.com/new.shtml

LORDS OF LIGHT - EP This is some seriously fucked up 3 man grindcore. The follow up to their debut LP from a few years back this is unstoppable blasting grindcore from the Pac Northwest. Smoke some crack and feel the light.

I'd rather trust 625 Thrashcore. Grindcore doesn't NEED metal influences. Yeah, Napalm Death and Impetigo had metal influences, guess what? They were metal influenced grindcore. Discordance Axis had metal influences too. Hell even Agoraphobic Nosebleed does. Grindcore doesn't need metal to be grindcore, though. Again, there's a reason why some grind bands live by 0% metal, grindcore doesn't need metal influence to be grind. Just like death metal doesn't blast beats to be death metal. It makes sense for Lords of Light and Cyanamid to sounds like hardcore punk: grindcore is a sub-form of hardcore punk.Seeofseaof 15:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Lords of Light sound like Man Is the Bastard and other powerviolence groups, and we know how you feel about powerviolence and grindcore. And Cyanamid? The same as any other thrash band from the '80s. ND coined "grindcore" and used it to describe themselves, years after bands like Siege had called it quits, so how can these groups be of the same genre?
 * Well, Man is The Bastard sounds nothing like Capitalist Casualties, Crossed Out, Infest, Spazz, or any of that. Hence, the joke term part. MISTB had fields recordings, white noise, two bass guitars that played scales and stuff, sparse drumming and samples, they sounded more like what Godflesh would sound like if it was a punk band. Basically, they don't sound anything like what's now considered "powerviolence", hence why it was originally a joke term. Also, those bands can be of the same genre by sounding like grindcore. So I'm starting to doubt that you've actually heard those bands now. Lords of Light doesn't have the sudden slow/fast tempo shifts of powerviolenve. Annnd... Just because there hadn't been a name for it yet (mainly because music like that was extremely obscure and generally, when it's only one or two bands playing that style, for example, it doesn't get its own genre). Much like how Infest can now be considered powerviolence, they have the exact same formula, they just played it 4 years before there was a name for it.`Seeofseaof 23:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, MITB does not sound like any of the powerviolence groups. Bad example. I've heard LoL, but it seems only one song stuck with me, a sludgey, Man... sounding track. The rest of their material is blasting. My mistake. They still don't sound like a grindcore group, though.


 * I'm not arguing with you about grindcore. Many of the bands you call grindcore, I call hardcore punk, and that will not change. 68.47.13.243 14:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know what ANb or DA had to do with any of this, and the majority of early death metal bands used few (if any) blastbeasts, but...whatever. 68.47.13.243 08:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Influence: Written in an unencyclopedic fashion?
How so? 68.47.1.63 22:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

-It's not. Fuck off. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Splattergrind
Someone should consider putting splattergrind on here; one other wiki site (in another language) actually has it up. user: shinobi101


 * With under 500 Google hits, I fail to see how this meets Wikipedia notability standards. Yet another made up subgenre... and the fact that another wiki has picked it up already is not a justification for including it here, it's an example of the problems with this endeavour in the first place. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Splattergrind is early goregrind. It shouldn't be mentioned. Maybe as an alternative name for goregrind though? Metal  of  Head  23:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

PORNOGRIND AND CYBERGRIND - seperate pages
Should have seperate pages on this, as they are both quite large off-shoots.

Davidtakesthesquare 18:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Power Violence
Shouldn't be on this page. If anything, it's a subgenre of hardcore punk, not grindcore.

Power Violence is hardly a "sub-genre"..just what happens when you play HC fast..Grindcore is basically the same thing. --70.19.224.223 20:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Cybergrind
Can someone giv a band as an example of this style.
 * Look up Genghis Tron. They're a perfect example. Fear Factory's "Fear is the Mindkiller" EP kind of fits too (their first album was grind-influenced, but they released an effects-filled remix EP). Maybe some of Samael's mid-90s stuff would qualify too. 74.76.142.137 (talk) 02:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

NO! It does'nt never existed. it's death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.156.250 (talk) 08:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We Came With Broken Teeth, the preschool tea party massacre what about them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.210.46.220 (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

All right, I'll add an example. Yeah, to 88.114.156.250, Cybergrind and death metal are different. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 16:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Prosthetic Cunt is an example. 97.97.149.74 (talk) 06:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

some cybergind bands
a beautiful lotus, 69ing with a lumberjack, zombies in times square, electrocutionerdz, the bears can smell the menstruation, sincerly you whore

i noticed cybergrind lyrics are mainly about sex, drugs, women...partying.. stuff like that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rageagainstyou (talk • contribs) 14:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

More recent, notable grindcore bands
Alright guys, there seems to have been a lot of talk about which bands to include on a list of notable grind bands, both old and modern. Obviously what constitutes notable is to a degree subjective, so why not go with a credible, citable source? With this in mind, I've got 'Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore' by Albert Mudrian in front of me. In the 'Altering the Future' chapter discussing more recent developments in death metal and grind, the grindcore bands he cites as up-and-coming are Nasum, Soilent Green, Pig Destroyer, Agoraphobic Nosebleed and the Locust (pp.263-267). Now whether you want to argue about the specific genres these bands should fit into is neither here nor there, given that you are not a citable source. I'm not actually aware of any other books chronicling the death / grind scenes specifically, but I'd say it's a pretty credible source, and acclaimed by the likes of Terrorizer and Revolver magazines. I say we go with that as a starting minimum.

Oh, and if anyone is aware of any other sources, let's go with those rather than arguing about what we do and do not think is notable, eh? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * While I'm on the subject, the list of bands as currently stands comes across as rather bizarre. Whilst there are no links to Pig Destroyer, Soilent Green, the Locust, Lock Up and any number of the older Earache bands, we have... Patareni. Hands up, I have never heard of these guys, yet they claim to be the oldest grindcore band in the world. I'm going to be willing to consider this a possibility when I see a credible source backing any of this which doesn't include their own Myspace page. As it stands, I'm struggling to see why this band is on Wikipedia at all, let alone linked from this page. Can we please try and sort this problem over the band list out? It would be helpful if this got discussed here, where people can state their cases for the inclusion and/or exclusion of bands based on verifiable, credible sources, not 'I've listened to them and reckon they sound more like Concrete Sox'. That is staggeringly unhelpful. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Somebody unhelpfully removed The Locust from the list of grindcore bands. I've already cited a source (Mudrian). If you'd like another, try Satpal Kalsi's In God We Crust article from Terrorizer 75 (p.29), 2000. Don't remove it again unless you've discussed it here and provided a legitimate reason why either of these sources should not be used. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed A beautiful Lotus from the subsection on Pornogrind. They are not notable enough to feature in the main grindcore article, unless you can provide me a source that states otherwise. They don't to date have their own Wikipedia page either; I suggest if you desperately want to push Your Favourite Band, you write their page and hammer out over there whether they deserve it. If consensus is to keep it, add them to the List of Grindcore Bands, but keep it off here if its notability is not sourced. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 03:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Queergrind
Someone added this to the subgenres section, commenting that is probably the most underground form of grindcore. I can well believe this, as the term doesn't achieve a single Google hit :-). I have summarily deleted it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 5 Google hits. NO WAY is this getting an article. I mean, look up crust grind. You get hundreds of thousands of google hits. Yet it doesn't have a Wikipedia article. — Metal of  Head  23:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Industrialgrind
Someone just tried to add this as a sub genre. I removed it. Fair warning anything added to this article without references will most likely be removed. The original research tag has been on this article for 3 months now. Time to focus on improving what's here and not be constantly adding more original research to the article. Ridernyc (talk) 06:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Industrialgrind is just grindcore (especially Cybergrind) influenced by industrial metal. Or vice versa. For example, the band Godflesh. An industrial metal band influenced by grind. Metal  of  Head  23:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And the Napalm Death album Fear, Emptiness, Despair. Metal  of  Head  23:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Exploration of musical qualities
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of analysis of what makes a song or band grind. Certain qualities, such as chromatic shifting between notes and chords, strong use of tremolo picking, intentionally off-time drumming, fuzz bass and high-frequency guitars should be addressed in order to better explain the genre. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.71.93.64 (talk) 15:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Be bold... source it and include it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Digby Pearson's definition of Grindcore
Somebody should seriously consider adding this to the present article:

"...grindcore was not just about speed of drums, blast beats etc- it actually was coined to describe the guitars- heavy,downtuned, bleak, harsh riffing guitars "grind", so thats what the genre was described as, by the musicians who were its innovators & proponents." 

Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Why did they take the subgenres part out?
Title says it all. ₰₯  ĬLʡ  $Φǚɭ  ɧџπt₴ŗ   ₯₰ 10:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cause there were no sources used which made the sections original research which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Material on Wikipedia must be verifiableTheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 11:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, i'll try find sources. I think articles for deathgrind/goregrind both have sources. Metal  of  Head  23:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Deathgrind is unsourced, but it is a major sub-genre. (Sort of) Metal  of  Head  23:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Some Sources Worth Checking Out
These ones are for sourcing grindcore's down-tuning tendencies:. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

In an attempt to avoid accusations of POV, the article has moved to weasel wording
With this edit the article has moved into weasel wording. -- The Red Pen of Doom  20:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I realize they're considered the first Grind band
but this article seems oNapalm Death-centric.Inhumer (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Unsurprising though really, as they're the originators and also one of the few grind bands to receive mainstream press coverage. The only thing I'd try and avoid is OR synthesis, i.e. Napalm Death claim they were listening to Joy Division therefore "post-punk" is a stylistic root for grindcore. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Inhumer: though I was the responsible for this "Napalm Death-centric" turn of the article, I agree you. I planned to write more about other grindcore bands in the end of the article, and point out the influences they added to the genre... Like how the lyrics of norwegian band Cadaver influenced Carcass'es gore-drenched themes, or how NYC band Brutal Truth was influenced by Merzbow or 2nd-generation black metal bands such as Impaled Nazarene. Musicaindustrial (talk) 14:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I also feel that theres little talk on punks massive influence on the genre. I mean, Grind essentially is Hardcore Punk with a lot of metal influence. Inhumer (talk) 17:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to disagree with you on that, Inhumer. The "Historical roots and influences" section is quite balanced on that matter: metal and punk are cited on an equal measure. Furthermore, the 6th paragraph - where ND's musical roots are pointed out - there are arguably more hardcore punk bands cited than any other style. And last but not least... I think the metal portion of grindcore is stronger than it's punk counterpart. No wonder powerviolence came to be - its basically grindcore stripped from it's metal trappings. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Haha, maybe I should have given it a more in depth read. While I don't really agree with your last statement, the talk page isn't the place for general genre discussion, so I won't get in to it.Inhumer (talk) 13:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a statement from Evan Garner (Burned Up Bled Dry) taken from the Decibel magazine article used as reference on the article:


 * "I think that powerviolence represented the DIY punk side of grindcore, bands like us that grew up listening to Black Flag, old D.R.I., old C.O.C., things like that, while grindcore represented a more death metal, Napalm Death side of the coin".


 * And yes, there's a metal influence on powerviolence too, but I believe grindcore is more metal than punk... No wonder grindcore bands always garnered interest from metal magazines and heavy metal documentarists. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Opps, I was referring to the more metal than punk statement, not the pv statement.Inhumer (talk) 02:28, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I left Aryder779 a message, since hes done such a great job on the articles for other punk genres, I think he'd be able to help expand the article even further.Inhumer (talk) 13:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for improvement
I'm really glad people are making an effort to improve this article, and I'll try to stop by and add my two cents every now and then. In no particular order, these are my initial thoughts for things that could be changed or added: 1) Noise (rock) vs. Industrial music: I'm not really sure if industrial music should be listed as a source in the infobox. I understand that ND were influenced by Throbbing Gristle, but grindcore doesn't take many appreciable cues from classic industrial (TG, Coil, Cabaret Voltaire, etc.) as such. Grind is actually more closely related to noise music or power electronics, which I think was actually the scene in which Broadrick was initially immersed. The noise influence recurs in later grindcore (Scott Hull's appreciation for Whitehouse, Merzbow's popularity in the scene, etc.), while grind doesn't really pay much attention to later developments in the industrial scene. I also think that noise rock would make sense to be listed as a prominent influence, given the enthusiasm for the Swans and other groups from the no wave scene. 2) A.C.: Someone should add a bit more on Seth Putnam's group. I'm a little worried that Cluebot will make automatic reverts because of the obscenity of the name. 3) Scott Hull projects: Something should be added to address Hull's contemporary prominence in the scene, with Agoraphobic Nosebleed and Pig Destroyer. 4) Power violence: should be discussed a bit more fully 5) Screamo: Mention should be made of late '90s emo violence 6) Connection with sludge/doom: Not sure how to include this, but it's important that ND actually had some very slow songs, even in their classic period. Later groups, Naked City and Pig Destroyer, among them, often experiment with sludge. 7) Death metal: More needs to be added on the cross-pollination between grind and DM, and ND's evolution into a metal group. 8) Subsequent work by ND protagonists: Some brief mention should be made of Justin Broadrick and Mick Harris's post-Napalm Death work, which is very diverse and impressive, though far removed from grindcore as such. 9) The Locust: Should also be at least briefly mentioned here. I might contribute some of this myself in the very near future. One main source is of course Mudrian's Choosing Death, though unfortunately it kind of gets off track with grind after the initial chapters. The usual online sources (Decibel etc.) will probably prove helpful. Aryder779 (talk) 13:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, Choosing Death and Decibel magazine are reliable sources; they're both used in the article. For Albert Mudrian's book check footnotes 3, 11, 12 & 13; for Decibel articles, check footnotes 2, 10 & 18. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Cheers for that! Most of it sounds very sensible. Oddly enough, my next task is going to be trying to get the A.C. page in decent order. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)