Talk:Grindcore/Archive 2

To Aryder779: New Edits
Some changes could be made on this new "Precursors" section. Here's two:


 * "The most widely acknowledged precursors of the grindcore sound are two hardcore punk groups from the United States: Siege and Repulsion".

Repulsion isn't a hardcore band... They have all that takes to become a speed-oriented extreme metal band: the downtuned, tremolo-picked guitar riffs; the Jeff Becerra-inspired vocals; the graphical "gore & death" lyrics and, yes, the blast beats, which would later become a de facto trademark of death and black metal.


 * "The group is often credited with inventing the classic grind blast beat (played at 190 bpm)..."

Repulsion didn't invent the blast beat... It was probably DRI's 1st drummer, Eric Brecht, who did. I have their 1983 self-titled LP and there's a track there called "No Sense" which has a blast beat riding right through it's verse. But I already heard talk elsewhere that some finnish hardcore bands where using blast beats since 1981, so...

And you'd have consider that Repulsion weren't the first to use blast beats on metal, either. Repulsion's "Horrified" demo tape came about in 1986 and Speak English or Die (1985), by the Stormtroopers of Death, had a song with a blast beat in it called "Milk". Sepultura's 1985 Morbid Visions EP also had a track with extensive use of the blast beat - "Antichrist". And by the time Repulsion released their demo, brazillian black metal pionners Sarcófago were already releasing theirs, with even faster blast beats!

Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

hi Musicaindustrial, On Repulsion and hardcore: Decibel Magazine (August '08, p. 63) says: "Horrified infected the burgeoning underground with an unheralded blend of hardcore and death metal, appealing to disparate scenes and transcending genre boundaries, effectively blurring them into a frenetic mess". Dave Hollingshead says they were into Slayer, Metallica, and Sodom, but also COC, DRI, GBH, and Black Flag. So basically, they're an "extreme crossover thrash" band. In any case, it's not inaccurate to refer to them as a hardcore band.


 * You should find a reliable source tagging them as a "hardcore punk" band then. They consider themselves "grindcore" - such is written on their official MySpace page . Interestingly, in the "About Repulsion" section of that same page, I found the following sentence:


 * "They were also one of the first metal bands to use horror- and gore-oriented lyrics, thereby helping start a tradition that soon would descend to deeper and deeper depths of depravity as successive bands strove harder and harder to outdo one another".


 * I know that Wikipedians don't count "self-published sources" (as MySpace) as something reliable; nonetheless, this gives an idea where Repulsion members stand, style-wise. But, as reliable sources go, Allmusic considers them a metal band and Rockdetector classifies them as grindcore and a death metal band . Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

They're notably more metallic than Siege, but describing them both as American hardcore bands seemed like the best way to introduce the section; it's not wrong, and it's not original research.


 * I have to disagree with you on that. From what I've gathered, you infered that Repulsion is a hardcore band by using a form of deductive reasoning:


 * 1.1) Crossover Thrash is influenced by (thrash) metal and hardcore punk.
 * 1.2) Repulsion is influenced by (thrash) metal and hardcore punk.
 * 1.3) Therefore, Repulsion is Crossover Thrash.


 * 2.1) Crossover Thrash is a hardcore punk subgenre.
 * 2.2) Repulsion is a Crossover Thrash band.
 * 2.3) Therefore, Repulsion is a hardcore punk.


 * That kind of reasoning usually doesn't fly around here on Wikipedia - believe me, I had to learn this the hard way! Like I said before, you have to have a direct source declaring Repulsion a hardcore punk band. If not, it's original research. Sorry.. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

About the blastbeat: I actually think an entire section on the blast beat should be added to "Characteristics" on this page.


 * I fully endorse that! Albert Mudrian's Choosing Death (2004) talks briefly about blast beats... I'll check it later so I can add an extra something to the article. Cheers, Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Note that I didn't say that Repulsion invented the blast beat; I said they invented the classic grind 190 bpm blast beat. P. 66 of the Decibel article says "Forget the pedantic blast beat-origin debates -- Horrified was instrumental in proselytizing the beat in those early years, with bands like Napalm Death and Carcass owing to Dave Grave's invention." Mick Harris is quoted as describing Horrified as "a big influence for me and early Napalm Death" on page 68. The article notes that the Repulsion blast beat is a bit slower than some others -- "Anything faster loses the pounding feel. Think sledgehammer, not machine gun". So I'm sure they didn't invent the blast beat, but the Decibel article does indicate that their particular take on the blast beat is essential to grindcore, as opposed to other blast beat genres like D-beat and thrashcore and death metal and black metal. You're right that DRI's great. It's possible a short paragraph should be added on them at the beginning of the "precursors" section, along with Siege and Repulsion, as they seem to be the third big proto-grind group. Aryder779 (talk) 18:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

hi - I suppose the clearest summation of my point was the Decibel line "unheralded blend of hardcore and death metal", which seems to indicate that they're about half hardcore and half metal; and then I used the indication of influences to support that point. Which I don't really think is original research. However, I'm by no means an expert on the band, and you've convinced me that they're more metal than punk (maybe 70% death metal to 30% punk, or something). So feel free to change 'round the way I've presented the section. best, Aryder779 (talk) 19:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with some comments others have made about DRI needing a mention. I realize that Napalm Death were heavily influenced by and speak highly of Siege and Repulsion, but DRI really should be mentioned as a precursor. DRI's use of the blast beat did predate anyone I know of and they were the first band most punks heard that sped up so fast that it took it from hardcore to another level, which when grind came around I always thought of as pre-grindcore. They were one of the most popular hardcore bands in the early 80's so it would be very likely that the bands after them who played blast beats (Siege, Napalm, Repulsion) had heard them and may have been influenced by them. Even if Napalm doesn't find them as significant of an influence as Siege and Repulsion, the grindcore scene as a whole owes them a large debt. In general, I don't know if one could dispute that DRI has had a much larger impact on extreme music than either Siege or Repulsion has. Blashyrkh66 (talk) 08:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

New Article Intro: Some Major Issues
I noticed the 1st and 2nd paragraphs of the "Grindcore" had been redone... And a lot of unsourced statements and factual errors have been added to them. I'd like to adress this matter now:


 * "Grindcore, often referred to as grind..."

That may be somewhat true, but where's the source to back that? If there isn't a reliable source to confirm that statement, than it should be considered original research and be promptly removed.


 * "...deriving from hardcore punk..."

I'll quote from the sources used on the article:


 * Shane Embury declared that the "grindcore sound" was a "mesh" of hardcore, death metal and "industrial-noise bands like the early Swans."
 * Digby Pearson said that Napalm Death "put hardcore and metal through an accelerator".
 * The 6th paragraph of the Napalm Death subsection cites a plethora of influences, including industrial music, noise and post-punk acts.

So, how come hardcore punk is the only form of music from which grindcore is derived?

Furthermore, the only major grindcore band that came from a truly punk background is Napalm Death. All other major grindcore acts - Carcass, Terrorizer, early Bolt Thrower, Brutal Truth, etc. - have come from the metal scene.

All in all, this seem like a textbook case of biased editing.


 * "Grindcore is said to take hardcore to a further extreme..."

See above.


 * "It should be noted that grindcore is not a sub-genre of metal, as it is, as mentioned before, a derivative of hardcore punk, though it does have many metallic influences."

Should this merit further comments? It might... And again, the above statement is unsourced.

And for the record, grindcore is a metal genre. And I can back up that claim:


 * The Allmusic article on Grindcore cites hardcore punk only once (line 8), whereas metal gets a whole lot of attention:
 * "While the term Grindcore has often been used somewhat interchangeably with death metal..." (line 1).
 * "When it first appeared in the mid-'80s, grindcore in its purest form consisted of short, apocalyptic blasts of noise played on standard heavy metal instrumentation (distorted guitar, bass, drums)." (lines 2-4).
 * "Grindcore's jaw-dropping aggression was so over the top that pointing to its roots in thrash metal and hardcore punk hardly gives an idea of what it actually sounds like." (lines 7-8).
 * "Grindcore's blistering intensity was assimilated not only into underground heavy metal, but also into avant-garde and experimental music circles..." (lines 16-17).
 * "Apart from adopting the low, demonic growl of the grindcore vocal style almost wholesale, American death metal bands with relatively limited technical ability who played at fast tempos often resembled grindcore outfits with song structures." (lines 21-22).
 * "In fact, by the '90s, Napalm Death's sound was virtually impossible to separate from either death metal or grindcore..." (lines 23-24).


 * There's also the Spin article I used. The cover of magazine where this Steven Blush piece was originally published reads: "Grindcore: Heavy Metal Goes Too Far". If someone wants to see this with their own two eyes, here's a link to the original article:.

I'm sure there's a whole lot of tried-and-true sources backing up my claim, but I'll leave it be (for now).

Conclusion: these two paragraphs should be re-written ASAP or reverted to a previous form without the errors I pointed out. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I cut some of the more egregious OR just now. There was a lot of weasel wording in there, too.
 * I left the grindcore = grind bit, because that's been there for awhile and isn't controversial. Shouldn't take too long to find a ref, if necessary.
 * Aryder779 (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Carcass members came from the punk scene as well. Inhumer (talk) 21:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Jeff Walker came from the Electro Hippies and Bill Steer from Disattack... Still, Carcass was a metal band from day one, I guess. Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I also think allmusic should only be used as a last resort, as the is known for its major inaccuracies. Inhumer (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I put the 'gathering of extremes' intro back in as I think it fits the genre perfectly: Not quite a punk genre, but not quite a metal genre.Inhumer (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I know that not exactly what it say, but its how I interpret it.Inhumer (talk) 18:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The thing I don't like about most sources is that they make it out to be that Hardcore punk only had minimal influence when that is far from the truth. Hell, 75-85% of the bands of the genre play within the Hardcore and punk scenes.Inhumer (talk) 19:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm referring to later bands not the ones you mentioned earlier.Inhumer (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Downtuned guitars not necessary to mention
Downtuning is a common practice is many forms of rock and metal; why is it worth mentioning in the grindcore article if it isn't discussed similarly in other genre articles in which downtuning is frequent? 65.71.92.13 (talk) 22:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Because grindcore was the first rock genre to use extreme forms of down-tuning. When Carcass (1988) or Napalm Death (1987) used a B-tuning on their 1st records, it was something completely unheard of at the time. All other metal groups that came after it, from American death metal bands such as Morbid Angel to even nu metal acts such as Korn or Limp Bizkit, admittedly owe their their down-tuning practices to grindcore groups. Musicaindustrial (talk) 15:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Deathgrind
I've suggested the "deathgrind" page be merged into this article. It doesn't really cite any sources, and while it's not badly written or inaccurate, it's pretty much all original research. I think a little more should be added to this page, describing the close relationship between death metal and grindcore in the early '90s (even to the point that Mudrian's book discusses them simultaneously, and Blush's Spin article also seems to treat them as nearly synonymous). As it stands, this grindcore article doesn't even mention that Napalm Death and Carcass became prominent death metal bands. On another note, I'm not really sure why the infobox still mentions "Goregrind", "Cybergrind", and "Pornogrind" as subgenres. They've been deleted from this page for lack of sources. I understand that it's not a bad way of dividing up the different types of groups, but I think it's been agreed that constant splitting into subgenres isn't the tack we're going to pursue with this page (after all, we'd have to address "crustgrind", "industrial grind", "sci-fi grind", "post-grindcore", "emogrind", and other loosely defined terms I've seen thrown about). Aryder779 (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. I did a brief online research on "deathgrind" some time ago and the available references that surfaced were very sparse and perhaps not that reliable. Maybe we should create a "2000s" subsection under the "History" section, and briefly discuss "deathgrind" on it. "Deathgrind" seems the most striking development of grindcore in recent years, although its genre boundaries are somewhat tough to nail. From what I've gathered so far, it's (mostly) death metal played with early grindcore song-lengths (from 1 to 2 minutes). Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Deathgrind has been around way longer than the 2000s, for example, Exhumed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.248.75.241 (talk) 04:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Exhumed released their first LP in 1998 (Gore Metal) and most of their albums were released on the 2000s. Also, their "deathgrind" style came to be around their full-length debut, which was two years short from the current decade... Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure 'deathgrind' as a term has been around for quite some time before that... I'll have a look for some references. Many of those terms (death/grind, death/doom, death/thrash etc.) to the best of my knowledge came from the old paper mail-order catalogues, rather than initially journalists. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, some sources would be nice so we could properly deal with this issue. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, your favourite ever source :) Terrorizer #150 (Nov 2006) has a page long article on death/grind (p.54, Paul Schwarz). I can't find a scan of it online and don't have the capability myself, but if anyone else has a copy might be able to help you out. Regarding dates, the opening line is, "By the time 1989 had given way to a new decade, the central tenets of what we now know as death/grind were in place." I can transcribe more if you like if no-one else can scan it and put it up somewhere. Incidentally, concerning what I was saying about catalogues, there's also the line, "Like death/thrash and death/black, the name death/grind undoubtedly stems from the importance of specialist mail order catalogues and their related 'zine scenes in proliferating extreme metal music to an audience whose tastes, as the '90s progressed, increasingly crossed over the traditional line between death metal and grindcore - that of lyrical content." I'll keep looking for other sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Does Terrorizer really think that the distinction between grindcore and death metal is essentially lyrical content? Huh. Weird Aryder779 (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think they were saying that's the only distinction, just that the lines are more blurry than many would like to admit. Mudrian clearly believes the same thing. Almost all the early proponents were experimenting in both death metal and grindcore from early on... Repulsion, Napalm Death, Carcass, Bolt Thrower, Brutal Truth etc. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think the lines are not always that blurred... It depends on which records, and by what bands, we're refering to.


 * Before adressing that, though, I'd like to point out a reason why eventually became blurred in the early 1990s.


 * Let's compare Possessed's Seven Churches with, say, Napalm Death's From Enslavement to Obliteration. Early extreme metal "singers", such as Quorthon (Bathory), Tom Angelripper (Sodom), Jeff Becerra (Possessed) or even Mille Petrozza (Kreator) favored a high-end, "rasped" vocal delivery.


 * On the other hand, I wouldn't mind that a band like Bolt Thrower be considered - for the most part - a death metal band. Their first record, In Battle There Is No Law, was basically a death/thrash metal venture, but Realm of Chaos was definately grindcore - low-end death growls, blast beats, sickly detuned guitars, the works. That changed on War Master and The IVth Crusade, where's a pervading death/doom feel to the music. My point: if Bolt Thrower was ever grindcore, well, Realm of Chaos was their grindcore record.


 * By the way, are you guys familiar with the "Death Metal Special" made by Canada's MuchMusic, originally broadcasted in 1993 on Power 30 (later renamed Loud)? You can see it on YouTube:       . Chris Barnes had something interesting to say about that matter.

Just redirect it and goregrind to here and write a little something about them in the article. People have been saying they were gonna do it for at least 2 year, so I doubt anyone will object. Inhumer (talk) 21:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've redirected and incorporated parts of the deathgrind article. I hope that doesn't offend anyone. It does include two pretty good references for the term -- one from the NY Times and the other from another newspaper -- which I've included in this article. I think that, at least for now, any info on "deathgrind" should be incorporated into this article rather than included in a separate page. I'm working on merging noisegrind and goregrind. Aryder779 (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One or many people have resurrected the deathgrind, goregrind, and noisegrind articles. Oh well, if people feel strongly, so be it. Though I think noisegrind's liable to be slapped with an AFD if nobody adds some kind of reliable source. Aryder779 (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Anarchism
I just reverted a series of edits by 67.175.156.75, which changed the "Lyrical themes" section to read: Napalm Death's songs address a variety of anarchist concerns, in the tradition of anarcho-punk.[13] These themes include feminism, anti-militarism, and anti-capitalism. Begin edit: Note: While some do view Napalm Death as an anarchist theme- it is a partially incorrect and definitely negative view of the band. Songs such as Unchallenged Hate- and its ant-racist theme and other songs from the Steer/Mick Harris era such as Lucid Fairytale and Life- offer a more humanistic view to their music. Additionally- there were grindcore groups outside of the major ones noted here such as Carcass, etc. - that took death/grind to a new level. Bands such as Monolith (Kingsport, TN- an underrated and obscure and enemy of the music business- part II version of grind, that existed between 1989-2000) would have the major components of grind, the noise and extreme vocals- but would also construct songs with groove and add elements thought improper to metal and extreme music- beginning in 1989, prior to the Carcass- Necroticism, album. Grooves laced with heavy guitar would become some trademark elements to what Monolith was. However, since Carcass was already on a major label in 1992, they were able to demonstrate 'similar' musical arrangement ideals first on the Necroticism LP. Monolith's lyrical themes would be first person accounts of tragedy and personal experience in that tradgedy- such as - a bird's eye view into the mind of an innocent on death row- in the song 'Sometimes Dead is Better', being burned alive and the emotions the body goes through- in a song called 'Blistered'. Etc. Additionally, Monolith would remain true to some grindcore ideals of promoting charity at benefit gigs- most notably- the Pediatric Aids Foundation. Other grind bands would also eventually play benefit gigs, therefore: the anarchist view of grind is not necessarily completely accurate. An anarchist does not add to an organized unit- it is against such things End edit. This is mostly a collection of original research, but the main concern that needs to be addressed is the opposition here set up between anarchism and "humanism". This editor believes that "An anarchist does not add to an organized unit- it is against such things", by which I take him or her to have collapsed all anarchism into Individualist anarchism. Had the editor followed the link to anarchism, he or she would have found that the majority of anarchists adhere to Social anarchism, which is by no means incompatible with anti-racism, humanism, or charity. In any case, Napalm Death's early lyrics were clearly in the vein of the anarchism of anarcho-punk initiated by Crass, and there are many sources here cited to this effect. Alteration of this amounts to an assertion of POV. Aryder779 (talk) 17:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Concerns
A lot of sources are used but I still feel the article has a lot of weird content I wouldn't expect to be in a grindcore article.

A) "most notably on powerviolence,[1] avant-garde jazz, and the commercially successful industrial[2] and nu metal genres.[3][4]" Powerviolence, seems fine as it's a similar sounding genre. Avant-garde jazz is incorrect. It makes no sense taking Naked City as an example, they incorporated zillion genres and grindcore is only one of them.

But they grindcore nonetheless... which makes perfect sense to include them. Another example of your rash, premature conclusions.

Grindcore influenced John Zorn, that's ok. But grindcore didn't influence avant-garde jazz as a whole, that is an assumption and original research.


 * I have to agree with that one. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Same goes for nu metal. The source states some Slipknot members where influenced by Carcass. Carcass is not a definitive grindcore band.


 * Whoa - Carcass is not a definitive grindcore band? How many grindcore bands have their debut reached #6 on the UK Indie Chart and become John Peel's album of the year?

They started out as grindcore but changed over time.


 * So...?


 * Case in point: Celtic Frost. They were one of the extreme metal bands of the mid-1980s, but they "went astray" with the ill-fated, glam metal-ish Cold Lake (1988). Does this mean we should simply disconsider all the very important contributions that Celtic Frost has made for a variety of underground metal styles (Doom, Death and Black Metal included)? By your logic, yes, which seems something very odd, to say the least. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The album mentioned in the source is Heartwork which is a melodic death metal album.

Carcass influenced Slipknot members and Wes Borland. Grindcore didn't influence nu metal as a whole, that is an assumption and original research.


 * I've read a whole lot of nu metal band interviews (such as Korn and Static-X, to cite a few) that acknowledge the influence of grindcore bands. In due time I could post them here. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm fan of early Carcass. If I where to make a schlager album in the future, would goregrind be an influence on schlager?


 * If you declared that it was an influence, then yes! Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, let me set things straight. I never said anything like "Carcass is a minor grindcore band". I said they have changed considerably over time (their album Heartwork was (a big influence on) melodeath). Having Carcass influences is not synonymous to having grindcore influences. Carcass was an influence on Wes Borland, that's true (as per source) but it is incorrect to assume grindcore was an influence on nu metal (unless a source directly states that "grindcore was an influence on nu metal"). Let me give you an personal example. (1) I play in a hard rock/stoner rock band. (2) One of my favourite bands is Ion Dissonance (mathcore). Both 1 and 2 are facts. But Ion Dissonance is absolutely no influence on the music I play and certainly not on the genre stoner rock. If I declared mathcore was an influence on the music I play, then still you cannot conclude mathcore was an influence on stoner rock as a whole. If you would include it in an article you should include a source stating "mathcore is an influence on stoner rock".


 * In a more abstract from:
 * (source 1)  plays in a  band.
 * (source 2) One of 's favourite bands is  which plays 


 * You simply cannot conclude  is influenced by . That's a violation of WP:SYN.


 * I hope I have cleared up some misunderstandings. Kameejl (Talk) 15:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

B) "and vocals which consist of growls and high-pitched screams, similar to those found in crust punk.[7]" This is not backed up by source.


 * Agreed. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

C) "Godflesh, early on associated with the grindcore scene,[9] had their guitars tuned to either B or C sharp.[10]" This doesn't seem relevant. Why name them if they're not considered a full fledged grindcore band? ("early on associated with the grindcore scene" just isn't enough).


 * I'll quote from Spin source used on the article (Blush 1991, p. 36 ):






 * "Death metal has been around for ages - and I liked it originally for the power - but now it's gone beyond a joke. I don't wanna say that Godflesh is the only band that's actually doing anything extreme, but I do think that we actually fulfill what this whole grindcore sound is about."


 * Now I'll quote another source used in the article:


 * "Godflesh/ PSI etc - are they Grind" ?


 * "Question: Can you maybe explain why people always consider bands like Godflesh, Pitchshifter and Dead World grindcore? It's really annoying to see bands such as the ones above labeled that when they ironically were the total opposite of fast, blast beating madness. Hell, even the Earache webstore labeled one of Pitchshifter's album "industro-grind", which actually sparked the question I have in mind."


 * "Answer: Early Godflesh was most certainly Grindcore, more accurately "Industrial Grindcore" at least on the debut and streetcleaner abums...grindcore was not just about speed of drums, blast beats etc- it actually was coined to describe the guitars- heavy,downtuned, bleak, harsh riffing guitars "grind", so thats what the genre was described as, by the musicians who were its innovators & proponents."


 * "Obviously with Justin being ex-napalm Death, the attachement was there because he was from the same scene that birthed grindcore anyways. PSI were similar, in the early incarnation. I agree that both bands by the time of album number 3 were less grinding in the guitars dept, and as they became more adept at programming their drum machines, the music became mroe beat driven, and at that point both bands became morre accurately described as Industrial metal, not grindcore."


 * And mind you - who wrote was none other Digby Pearson, founder of Earache Records, an utmost authority on the subject...

And in the interview it's not clear the tuning was grindcore inspired.


 * Although I know that a reference directly poiting ou that Godflesh's was " Grindcore-inspired". Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

And by the way it states "we would tune between C sharp and B".


 * Point taken. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, if you can source it, then it's OK (note blogs are not allowed as source). But just like I said before: the section needs a source stating "grindcore bands downtune their guitars" instead of "Band X, Y and Z tune in B". I'll take a look at the other sources later. Thanks you for your comments. Kameejl (Talk) 15:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

D) "The Belgian Leng Tch'e are also a popular group,[36] who acknowledge a variety of influences from sludge, death metal, and metallic hardcore.[37]" This 2000 section needs more content. Leng Tch'e now gets a whole section which seems out of balance.

E) An overall concern is that this article reads like an enumeration of examples of grindcore (related) bands and their characteristics. Their characteristics are then attributed to grindcore music. The content might be truthful in many cases but that is not how wikipedia works. If you need a source to prove grindcore songs are often short then the source should state "grindcore song are often short". Adding 2 different sources that state "Anal Cunt has short songs" and "Anal Cunt is grindcore" is not OK. That is a case of synthesis of published material. This is evident e.g. in the sections Guitar tuning, Song length, Lyrical themes, and the genre sections.

This article needs a lot of work. I'm going to remove some of the content that does not comply with WP:SYN.

If their are any problems I'm happy to discuss them here. Cheers. Kameejl (Talk) 13:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with everything in the above comment. It is nice that people have worked so hard at actually finding sources for the article though! Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! In the meantime I've deleted some of the content. And, despite my long lecture, I also think good work has been done and good sources where found! Kameejl (Talk) 14:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi,
 * I don't understand this statement: "An overall concern is that this article reads like an enumeration of examples of grindcore (related) bands and their characteristics. Their characteristics are then attributed to grindcore music. The content might be truthful in many cases but that is not how wikipedia works." What is grindcore but a collection of bands, identified as such? I think it's ridiculously restrictive to demand sources that says "grindcore songs are short" rather than merely sources that say "Napalm Death (and most other bands recognized as grindcore) have very short songs". It's an overliteral reading of the prohibition of synthetic research to expect a source to exist that describes "grindcore" as such. All we have is a collection of sources describing certain bands as grindcore, from which we can deduce the common traits establishing the genre. There's no "grindcore Platonic ideal" for which we can find sources.
 * I agree that the 2000s section needs more content, but the way to deal with that is to add some information on some more significant grindcore groups who formed in the 2000s, and their influences or take on the genre.
 * I also disagree with the removal of "avant-garde jazz" from the intro paragraph. It's not just Naked City, Zorn also worked with Pain Killer, which was a partial Napalm Death reunion, and much of his other work also takes inspiration from grind. Groups like OLD, Ground Zero and Yakuza also have both grind and jazz influences. The influence on avant-garde jazz is worth mentioning in an encyclopedia like this; it demonstrates the broad reach of the innovations of grindcore. As now revised, it just says something like "grindcore's influence spread across the world of music", which is absurdly vague.
 * In general, I think that your outlook on this article is far too critical. Aryder779 (talk) 23:31, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Grindcore and avant-jazz
What "influence on avant-garde jazz" are you talking about? Yeah John Zorn is influenced by grindcore. The big majority of avant garde jazz artists are not. I'm certain it is not worth mentioning so I removed it. Please go to Avant-garde_jazz or here and copy-paste all the artists that have been influenced by grindcore. I'm pretty sure it can't be sourced either. But you could surprise me by providing nice quotes. Kameejl (Talk) 01:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Look, no one's ever said "avant-garde jazz was revolutionized by grindcore". The sentence in question (which I didn't write): "Though an unwelcoming style of music to most, grindcore's influence spread across the music world, most notably on powerviolence, avant-garde jazz, and the commercially successful industrial and nu metal genres." Even if John Zorn was the only figure from avant-garde jazz to have indicated an appreciation for grindcore, this statement would still be correct. John Zorn is not a minor figure. BTW, this statement -- "It makes no sense taking Naked City as an example, they incorporated zillion genres and grindcore is only one of them" -- is wrong. Have you heard Torture Garden? It's a grindcore/free jazz record. If you read the Naked City (band) page, it might give the impression that grindcore just happened to be one of zillion influences, but that's not true. Zorn's Spy vs. Spy album is also a grind-inflected take on some Ornette Coleman tunes.


 * As for your question, in addition to John Zorn, I would include Otomo Yoshihide, Bill Frisell, Tim Berne, Bill Laswell, Kevin Drumm, Ken Vandermark, Weasel Walter, and Last Exit (Peter Brötzmann, Sonny Sharrock, Ronald Shannon Jackson, and Laswell) as musicians who've taken some inspiration from grind. In Frisell's case, it's mainly the work he did with Naked City, and in Berne's case, mainly the Spy vs. Spy album with Zorn. Drumm is a little closer to black/death metal and Vandermark more inspired by noise rock, but I'm sure they have at least some awareness of grind. Of course, most avant-garde jazz musicians took nothing from grindcore -- because avant-jazz was around for 35 years before grindcore ever existed! Nobody's saying avant-jazz is a derivative of grind, but it's worth pointing out that a number of musicians from the late '80s downtown NYC scene were enthused about grind.


 * For what it's worth, I wrote about 80% of the avant-garde jazz page. Aryder779 (talk) 02:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add that, in response to the concern about synthesis of sources: "The spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. The common purpose of building a free encyclopedia trumps both. If this common purpose is better served by ignoring the letter of a particular rule, then that rule should be ignored." - What "Ignore all rules" means. This page will go nowhere if we're prohibited from drawing conclusions about grindcore by examining representative grindcore bands. Blast beats, downtuning, brief song duration -- these are all traits of individual grindcore bands, and are not going to be found in some kind of grindcore how-to manual. Aryder779 (talk) 02:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But to avoid WP:SYN, we need a source stating thst grindcore has been an influence on avant-jazz in general, not just Zorn-related projects. I personally haven't seen such a source, but would be more than happy to include it if it can be found. I'd actually also be genuinely interested, as I know little about avant-jazz, apart from the Zorn projects. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I took Kameejl's challenge to be sort of "off the record", as it were, as I can't document grindcore's influence on many of the musicians I just mentioned.
 * However, even if albums like Spy vs. Spy, the Naked City work, and Pain Killer are "Zorn-related", they still include a number of musicians who are prominent in their own right in the avant-jazz world (Bill Frisell, Tim Berne, Bill Laswell). Laswell collaborated with Mick Harris on some ambient work -- which is definitely far removed from grind, but I'm positive that Laswell's jazz work with Last Exit, in the '80s, shows an awareness of ND (that's why he sought out Harris as a collaborator in the first place). Aryder779 (talk) 21:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see where you're coming from, but an "awareness of grind" is very different from a direct influence. Bands as diverse as Bon Jovi and Mayhem are "aware" of grind, but we wouldn't claim that they were influenced. As for avant-jazz, I'm going to stay out of it, because I just don't know enough to contribute usefully :-) Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm not really trying to prove an grindcore-avant-jazz connection for the purposes of this page. I'm in a bit of a preliminary stage. It's somewhat difficult to articulate broader effects of grindcore in avant-jazz, outside of a few examples like Spy vs Spy, Naked City's Torture Garden, Pain Killer's Buried Secrets, and Ground Zero's Null and Void. Which are, in themselves, interesting, and do definitely take on the brief songs, downtuned guitars, and blast beats pioneered by grindcore.
 * But since you mentioned it -- Bon Jovi was aware of grind? Aryder779 (talk) 22:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Post-punk as stylistic origin
I remember that previously the inclusion of "post-punk" in stylistic origins was somewhat controversial; every now and then, someone would add it, and then someone else would remove it. I haven't generally taken a position as to whether Joy Division's influence on Napalm Death merits its inclusion, though I do think there's a kind of indirect conceptual relationship between post-punk ideals of brevity and modernism and grindcore. For example, early Wire, in a weird way, are kind of "grindcore without the aggression", in that they also write very short songs and have a very stripped-down notion of composition. John Peel's enthusiasm for grindcore also emphasizes this connection. Now that I've tried to begin expanding the "2000s" section, having added Some Girls and Daughters, I think a really argument can be made for post-punk as a reasonably pervasive influence on grindcore. I know that there are some people who contend that those two groups aren't really grind, but the sources are what matter. Any thoughts? Aryder779 (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

An anonymous editor just deleted those two groups, and I've restored them. Aryder779 (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The person who deleted it was me. I'm sorry, I should have checked the discussion page, but since both bands listed are so ridiculously far from grindcore (despite what some ho-hum self-important name-dropping reviewer who can't feign insight on hardcore punk let alone grind might say), I just thought it was a trolling. Here's the thing. In terms of post-punk influence on grindcore, whats being referenced is the no wave of Swans and similar acts (on bands like Napalm Death), as well as the harsh noise of bands like Whitehouse and Nurse With Wound (on bands like Sore Throat, 7 Minutes of Nausea and The Gerogerigegege). You know, ACTUAL noise, not the artsy, self-aware, spastic kind played by "noise" acts like Melt-Banana, Arab on Radar and Lightning Bolt (which might be more akin to the mathcore being referenced). Noisy industrial post-punk IS the spiritual predecessor to a lot of grind (with bands like O.L.D., a semi-important grind band from the late 80's even crossing back and forth from grind to industrial). I fail to see any post-punk or grindcore influence in any of Some Girls' or Daughters' work whatsoever. Post-hardcore is the term you might be looking for, and the cross-pollination of post-hardcore and grindcore is a wholly unrelated topic which is barely within your grasp if you honestly feel Some Girls and Daughters have any post-punk aesthetic to them. In that sense, the argument is entirely moot. Rather than focus on bands with a knack for misinformed self-canonization and sub-cultural misappropriation, why not focus on all the other important, relevant and let's be honest, RELATED stuff thats been happening in grind since 2000. 24.90.180.54 (talk) 14:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll advise you to read NPOV and Reliable sources, first and most importantly.
 * Second, if you'd like to add anything else about grindcore since 2000 that has a reliable source backing it up, be my guest. That section needs to be expanded.
 * Third, I'm entirely unimpressed by your attitude. Swans are not so much a no wave or post-punk group at all, but noise rock (no wave was over after No New York was released, as Marc Masters' book on the scene attests). If you had read this article, you'd know that Joy Division are an influence on Napalm Death, which is why post-punk is mentioned. Your opinion on the distinction between "ACTUAL noise" and the "artsy, self-aware, spastic kind" is entirely your point of view, and one you're welcome to hold, though meaningless here. I wouldn't really associate the latter with mathcore, a microgenre with few sources to back it up, primarily applicable to Dillinger Escape Plan. Whether you find post-punk or grindcore influence in Some Girls also doesn't matter, because at least one reviewer from a notable source thinks so, first of all. Second, I've read an interview with Wes Eisold in which he alludes to Some Girls as grind, which I can probably turn up if absolutely necessary. And the post-punk influence is obvious, because they covered Public Image Ltd. and discussed their kinship with post-punk (which you'd know if you took a glance at their page here.
 * What is moot is that you have no sources; so you have no business removing or adding anything until you do. Aryder779 (talk) 00:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm entirely unimpressed by your inability to handle criticism. And your cuntiness. I could write an adjunct based on the Jewish diaspora throughout Latvia and it would prove more effective in conveying the history of grindcore in the 21st century than that legless tripe you're trying to pass off as NPOV. Congratulations, you're a talking head. Rather than pursue your career as an investigative music pundit, why not say I don't know, develop a bit of perspective on the history of music yourself. Then perhaps you can do more for this article than just projectile vomit the talking points of music ezines and labels that can't count three bands back into their own self-fellative existence, let alone the 20-odd years that grindcore's been around for. Also, lol @ you. Some fag known for playing for watered down marginally hardcore pseudo-punk bands called Some Girls grind, so now you have your work cut out for you. I'm pretty sure I can dig up an article where Phyllis Schlafly called satanism the bedrock of feminism, so I guess I should hop on over and NPOV all over the Lilith Fair article. Lrn 2 research. Clearly, the actual noise VS stupid bullshit argument I presented you was being used with hopes you'd recognize the criticisms and viewpoints which are not uncommon within experimental music circles in regards to modern/indie/post-hardcore-based noise. Although I really shouldn't be asking this much of someone whose gut reaction to Swans is "LOL NOT POST-PUNK". I'm well aware of Joy Division influence's on ND, but had you been clever, you'd have ascertained that I wasn't trying to invalidate the post-punk->grindcore argument. Also, let me address the third appendage of this three-headed retard you call a retort. Some Girls covered a song by a well-known post-punk band and all of a sudden they're post-punk? I guess this makes Blind Guardian a 50's doo wop quartet. I will address the citation issue at a later point, but please, for the love of scientology, stop being spoon-fed your perspectives on music.


 * You clearly have some need to prove your masculinity, and as we all know, nothing quite does the trick like an anonymous, half-coherent rant on a Wikipedia talk page. Aryder779 (talk) 14:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So rather than come up with a half-decent retort or argument against her you rest on cliched e-psychology. SO clearly, this is all about your cyber merit points and your own need to self-aggrandize and not your actual care for the article because the filthy rot of your pride is soaking through my laptop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.170.211 (talk) 16:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to to say, your comments are extremely rude. Your line of arguing is a classic ad hominem attack - your true aim doesn't seem counter-arguing, but a personal attack upon whoever presented the argument you deplored - in this case, Aryder779.


 * And speaking of psychology, there's an interesting concept Sigmund Freud came with called "projection". According to Wikipedia's definition, it is "a defense mechanism in which one attributes one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions to others. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them." So, a friendly advice: you might want to rethink the "filthy rot of your pride is soaking through my laptop" thing. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments that disregard WP:CIVIL and WP:NOR, and resort to sockpuppetry, are illegible to me. Aryder779 (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Allow me to reintroduce myself. I'm the comment from IP 199.79.170.211. And please cease hiding behind wiki rules to evade the fact that you are sorely incorrect, about seemingly everything, desperate to quote OPINION sources of people who have no credibility to prove your point, and are too self-interested and frail of ego to admit that you're wasting your time poorly arguing against a moot point in which you have some sad personal investment in. And for the record, it seems that there are vast plateuas of things that are illegible to you. There's no sockputtetry and this is as civil as wikipedia arguments get, so please try and bring something substantive to the proceedings or move your anal retentive yet useless services to the New Wave of American Heavy Metal Article, which could actually use a tool as yourself.Karen_Carpentry (talk)


 * Hi Karen. Thank you for discarding your sock puppet. I feel that volleys of insults are generally a nuisance on Wikipedia, as they resolve nothing and prove nothing. WP:CIVIL indicates that the above comments are highly inappropriate. I take partial responsibility, owing to my crack regarding gender insecurity earlier in this discussion. My comment may have been ill-advised, though provoked. I've crossed it out in the hopes of returning dialogue to a more sane space. I've reported our exchange to Wikiquette alerts, with the hope that outside mediation might render our situation more amicable.
 * To clarify: At this point our disagreement has little to do with whether Some Girls or Daughters are or are not best described as grindcore groups, which I'll gladly concede is a debatable issue. Rather, your position appears to be that we should shout at each other without resorting to published sources, and that my appeal to WP:NOR is merely a cover for my reliance on being "spoon-fed". Wikipedia is a place for discussion and research, not for torrents of abuse. Aryder779 (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Massive unadulterated failure. I guess I should have logged in from the beginning. I'm the guy who has been mocking your defensive bureaucratic quasi-journalistic method of editing this article, not Karen. I'm not adding NOR, I'm simply removing your unqualified research (which I will counter-cite when I have more time, worry you not). Unqualified, how? Clealy, much of the hardcore/crust punk orientation of the article has been replaced in lieu of a misinformed revisionist noise rock dribble (a good example being the wording for the very first paragraph of the article). The post-punk/noise rock thing has its merit, but its negligible to the history of the article at large. Not saying it doesn't deserve mention, but it's a snippet within a huge article. Whereas I see little to no elaboration on the influence of other genres on the development of grind (sludge, powerviolence, black metal even). Karen has a point, don't hide behind regulations which only incidentally affirm your misstatements. It's unbecoming of a fine bureaucrat such as yourself. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 20:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In the spirit of diplomacy, I've rescinded some of my statements as well. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving on
With regard to the unpleasant above, I think that the substance of the dispute was that Karen Carpentry and Seethingchaos believed that Daughter and Some Girls ought to be removed from the "2000s" subsection of the history section of this page. As sources indicate that these two groups fall under the "grindcore" rubric, and neither of these two users have proffered any contrary evidence, in keeping with WP:NOR I think that the community can consider the matter closed.

Now, on another note, I'd like to ask other editors of this page for suggestions on ways to improve this article. I mean, it would be great if someday we could get things up to "good article" status. One issue I've noticed is the "stylistic origins" in the Infobox. Some editors have a more minimal viewpoint -- including numerous subgenres under the "hardcore punk" label, for example -- and others want to enumerate the component elements more comprehensively (the latter viewpoint is what's currently represented on the page). Perhaps we can discuss the best and most consistent manner of approaching this. Second, this page has been criticized at times for beng on the borderline of violating WP:SYN; we derive claims about grindcore from attributes of individual grindcore groups. In some ways, I don't feel this strategy can be avoided, but if there are other groups that aren't represented on the page, we should address that. I'm probably going to add something about The Boredoms and grindcore in the future, in the legacy section. They toured with Brutal Truth and have mentioned grind as inspirational. Aryder779 (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just saw that Seethingnuclearchaos posted sources describing Some Girls and Daughters as mathcore. While I don't believe that these necessarily override other sources that describe them as grindcore, I'm ok with the current position represented by the article and appreciate this contribution. Aryder779 (talk) 16:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You should give up the ruse and admit you have nothing of value to added to this article and are nitpicking moot points and fabricating opinions in order to bolster the sad, cliche sense of self-worth you get from seeing how many edits you've amassed. Try actually listening to grindcore and not approaching this from some slanted and uninformed Pitchfork Media lens. Keyword: Uninformed. Yes, this is a socialist internet encyclopedia, but you're not winning any brownie points from me from pestering this article with sadly out-to-lunch details that don't stick. If you feel the needs to bring Boredoms, of all things, into here, then I shall persevere, surely, in my quest to have Interpol added as one of the pre-eminent post-grind bands. You bureaucrat.


 * Love, Karen_Carpentry (talk)


 * Look - here goes the ad hominem attacking again. Producing reliable sources is far better than insisting on that warmongering of yours, Karen. You won't go far here with this kind of attitude. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There's about as much "warmongering" going on here as there are reliable sources for these recent edits. Let's not pretend as if Aryder did not set the tone for this discussion himself and isn't capable of directly addressing warranted criticisms without cheerleading.Karen_Carpentry (talk)


 * Ad hominem attacks aside -- whether any of us do or do not like the Boredoms is really irrelevant here. If I choose to add information on the Boredoms and their relationship to grindcore, and I cite it, that's not a valuative judgment. There used to be information here on Limp Bizkit's debt to Carcass, and that was fine with me, not because I like Limp Bizkit, but because that's information relevant to the spread of the innovations of grindcore. This page is meant to be a reasonably objective article on a musical style -- it's not an endorsement of one band as against another.
 * I sometimes get the impression that certain fans of extreme music feel that impoliteness earns them some kind of cred, which is weird to me, because this is the safest possible arena to engage in that kind of behavior. I just added some information on the Boredoms, and also on Dillinger Escape Plan, to the "Legacy" section. Aryder779 (talk) 17:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, your reading comprehension is suspect in this order. Where did I ever claim to dislike Boredoms? When was that ever the issue? The entire issue is that you, through all of your edits and your various commentaries in defense and promotion of yourself within this article, haven't added anything of substance besides several highly suspect arguments for bands and sounds unrelated to grind and only resembling grind to someone who inherently doesn't understand the parameters of the genre. You wanted to push screamo, post-hardcore and a few noise bands as grind or detail them in the article as having a direct, rather than obtuse connection to grind, which they don't. Your citations and reasons for doing so are all based on hearsay and opinion, most of which seem culled from non-reputable sources. I do appreciate your memorization of wikipolicy and trying to deflect apt criticism through a front of cordiality and positing wild, non-sequitor ideas about this being of differing tastes (never was) or objectivity (all of your edits clearly represent your particular view of the genre and not that of the community at large or anyone with a modicum of knowledge of it and its history) and a Limb Bizkit mention. Here's the thing. I recall that Limp Bizkit reference. It merely discussed, whether added humorously by a person or to demonstrate the wide and oft-surprising influence of grind, that their former guitarist liked Carcass. It could have been Amott/Melodic Death Metal-era Carcass. It could've been grind-era Carcass. It never said in the article, which I recall coming out months ago or so. So it was vague, but its purpose was int he right place, to illustrate the range of influence cited by musicians themselves. Problem is, you have claimed entire sub-genres unrelated to be influenced by grind, rather than specific citations from members of specific bands which is the only way your method would word while avoiding unfounded generalizations. Now, if you wanted to bring up that the bands you tried to cite, from a studio discussion on a generic metal website rather than a reputable authority, are "emo violence" rather than trying to say they are a mix of grind and post-hardcore, then you could properly and logically fill in the blanks as powerviolence and emoviolence do all have strains derived from grind. Otherwise, these "valued additions" are immaterial. I'd also like to note that your behavior seems to be repetitive, guessing from a June/July criticism from your metalcore article edits from another wiki user who noted your tendency to file false claims and bemoan when your vantage is discredited or challenged. You know, you won't go far here with that kind of attitude.Karen_Carpentry (talk)


 * I accept the removal of mathcore as a derivative, because it appears very unclear what "mathcore" in fact comprises. However, I've restored the mention of The Dillinger Escape Plan and The Boredoms, as prominent, reliable sources back up the information I have added. You'll note that this is in the "Legacy" section, not the main history, so I don't see how you could say that I'm foregrounding these groups. The other claims made in the above screed don't make much sense to me. I added Daughters and Some Girls to the 2000s section, in response to a request to expand that section. A couple sources exist that also refer to these groups as mathcore, but I don't see how that in any way invalidates my edit.
 * I also added some stuff about screamo to the "legacy" section, which, again, is in no way an assertion of POV, nor is it original research. I mean, I also added stuff on Repulsion, and did a lot of work on the powerviolence and crust punk pages -- it's not like I have some fixation on the arty noise rock stuff. The distinction you're making between "direct" and "obtuse" appears to be your own outlook, as I don't see the sources saying anything of the sort.
 * As for your mention of edits made to the metalcore page, three months ago, and a resulting dispute: First, I'll say that I'm a bit creeped out that you're researching my past. Second, yeah, what of it? I had a disagreement once before on Wikipedia, months ago, which was eventually resolved amicably. What's your point?
 * For the record: The additions I have made are:
 * "Japanese noise rock group The Boredoms took inspiration from grind,[53] and toured with Brutal Truth in 1993." and
 * "Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, have also been associated with grind.[60]"
 * The sources cited are from a magazine called Theme, the Allmusic genre description for "grindcore", and Epitaph Records's site for DEP. These are all reputable sources. The claims I've made are entirely substantiated. And this whole argument is over two sentences in the "Legacy" section, so I can't imagine you could claim that this constitutes undue weight. Aryder779 (talk) 21:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I just added two new sources for the Dillinger Escape Plan claim, and another sentence on the Boredoms/Brutal Truth connection, with a source.
 * Also, in an unrelated note, somebody named "Shadow Fighter" added nine or ten crazy things to the stylistic origins box in what I can only assume was a joke, but I changed it back. Aryder779 (talk) 21:25, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to believe you're incapable of reading the text surrounding my allusion to that incident. Resolved or not, this is clearly procedure for you and his comments hold weight in light of your sudden decision in the recent past to nominate an article for merging/deletion that not only had survived several better argued attempts but had been extensively worked on with the very same users holding derision for your edits to this article. Also, considering its the internet and we're swimming in information its weird to even ask how I know that. For someone so obsessed with protocol and procedure as a method of control and influence, you should know there are handy buttons in front of you. Those things you just referenced are well and good, despite the fact that a mention of the DEP thing on Relapse or the like being a lot more reputable than a blurb on an Epitaph promotional site, but you neglect to mention the "mix of post-hardcore and grindcore".Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC).