Talk:Grinding (video games)

Untitled
I disagree with this merge.

Grinding as a game design element is different from obsessive play. Although one may be to do with the other, they are not the same. Hyphz 19:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC) Obsessive play and grinding share two completely different objectives. An obsessive player finds "obsessive playing" entertaining because they normally view playing the video game as the most fun they could be having in the moment. Grinding, or a player who finds themselves playing obsessivly with the objective of grinding usually finds that playing the video game is the most productive thing they could be doing, not neccessarily the most entertaining. Grinding is a term of productivity.


 * I also disagree with this merge. "Grind" (noun) is a game design element. "Grinding" (verb) may seem similar to "Catassing" at a glance but grinding does not necessarily mean that the player(s) will obsessively play a game. A grinding player may do repetitive tasks in short play periods. --Sensath 23:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Fiesta Online (title system)
Fiesta Online ( free mmorpg ) also has a "Title System" as in the article. It would be nice to have that added in there as well as free mmorpgs need mentioning too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.71.166 (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Stub
Is this really still a stub? It seems long enough for the subject in question.

Original research in this article
I've put the OR tag on this article. It contains no inline citations, several unattributed claims (ie "some critics say..."), and the single reference provided at the bottom does not have one instance of the word "grind". --Wafulz 03:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The reference was for "level treadmill" (page 11). I agree that this article needs significant cleanup. --Mrwojo 03:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"Poopsocking" seems an extremely unique term. Has anyone ever heard of that? -74.67.238.117 20:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversy
I've changed reference to "Players..." to "Players of subscription-based games..." as they are the ones who are financially affected by the need to grind in online games. After all, Game Freak didn't make a single additional penny out of me during the 40 hours I spent grinding in Pokémon Diamond after getting to the Pokémon League, before taking on the Élite Four. (Most of it was done on mundane bus and train journeys.) -Kain (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Runescape Reference Needed?
The article has a paragraph on Grinding and subscription games, then cites Runescape as an example. However, while Runescape may be a very grind heavy game (I haven't played it much personally), I do know that it is also a payment optional game, and that (theoretically) no money is required to reach the highest level. Unless the level cap for members and nonmembers varies, I think that Runescape could be replaced by a subscription MMO, or the sentence be removed entirely. 71.196.29.79 (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it has a free and a subscription mode, but while in the free mode it is possible to grind all the way to the top in the skills you are allowed(crafting, mining, fishing) you cannot grind or level in any way in any of the skills restricted to paid members such as questing and potion making, so in that sense you do have to pay in order to grind in members only skills or even to enter the greater half of the world which is restricted to paid members.AerobicFox (talk) 04:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Wording?
Doesn't the wording/title of the section "Why people Grind" imply or convey that Grinding is some sort of obscure problem or phanomanon? Its a form of play that some people like. Stabby Joe (talk) 23:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

ginding can be fun
yes grinding is bad some times but it can be fun. that entertain part should say this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.176.155 (talk) 19:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * much agreed. this article is VERY biased towards presenting grinding like something negative, whereas there are many people that actually enjoy grinding games. also a list of grinding games here would make much more sense than the list that presently exists - "Various games' approaches to counter issues of grinding" 80.240.18.229 (talk) 17:35, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This argument is flawed. It may sound "square" to say this but ask this simple question before saying "it's fun": Would it be fun if it had no reward? --194.219.131.203 (talk) 10:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

origin of the word
I think it originates from Tony Hawks games where one had to do a lot of simple figures in order to charge a power bar that enabled more complex tricks. Grinding was by far the easiest way to do so. Does anyone know of a use that supercedes it ? If not I'll add it in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iv (talk • contribs) 15:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's not even close, buddy. The origin pre-dates gaming, likely referring to those whom worked in factories.  Basically, the term is used when play turns into work in gaming, and that's where the term got its origin - the comparison of play with work. 70.253.71.36 (talk) 03:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

LOTRO
How is Lord of the Rings' title system supposed to counter grinding? Isn't it in fact, a grind in itself? 145.94.74.23 (talk) 11:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

non-MMORPGs
I came to the page expecting information on non-MMORPGs (I was linked from the page on random encounters), but don't know enough about the subject to add anything myself. What I'd like to see is a mention of repetitively fighting either the same opponents, or in the same area, to be sufficiently experienced to pass a certain part of a RPG - e.g. a Sanctuary Guardian in EarthBound, or a Gym Leader in Pokémon. If there's already an article or section of an article that mentions this, a link from the first paragraph to that article would work too. Cheyinka (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Various games' approaches to issues of grinding
The "Various games' approaches to issues of grinding" section had a prose tag suggesting it should be changed from list to prose form. I'm removing the tag because it's a list so the the list format is appropriate. If you decide to restore it please make a comment on a good prose structure to use instead. RJFJR (talk) 00:03, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The articles slightly biased in favour of grinding.
There's only the opening then one paragraph that's fairly critical while others are favourable to neutral which is a little odd considering how much it's complained about from tediousness to accusations of elitism. Some may argue that grindings enjoyable but then the same could be said for self harm but I doubt you would have a paragraph in that article claiming it was a legitimate relaxation technique. Other assertions such as the first few paragraphs in the controversy section overly rely on citing one authors opinions and could also do with balancing out.Pleasetry (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Farming
Farming is NOT the same or even that similar; considering one can grind XP by farming. Where grinding is an activity in gaming farming relates to factors the players don't directly control. E.G. in a shooter when a sniper watches a set area getting easy kills off NPCs or other players, no matter how much the subject player waits they need the enemy to move to the aforementioned area to be plucked by the farming player. GRINDING would be using a special/bad sniper to get kills over and over (regardless of how its gotten) in order to get an unlock or some other in game reason. One can grind that snipers achievements through farming but the terms are not the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.230.117.254 (talk) 18:47, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First-person (gaming) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:01, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) © Tb hotch ™ (en-2.5). 18:59, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Grinding (gaming) → Grinding (video gaming) – The page was boldly moved by Dissident93 in 2017. However, the (gaming) disambiguation is generally used to refer to all games including tabletop games. Grinding is a purely video game phenomenon, and (video gaming) would be correct per WP:CONSISTENCY. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:30, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:NCVGDAB#8 Colin M (talk) 17:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support due to it being video game specific, something I was not thinking of at the time. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support In ictu oculi (talk) 23:53, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Grinding was popularized by Secret of Mana and Phantasy Star IV ?!
Early in the article is it said that grinding was popularized in 1993 by Secret of Mana and Phantasy Star IV.

Is there any basis for this claim? Secret of Mana is not even that grindy of a game.

I would say that grinding in popular games dates back to at least Final Fantasy I / Dragon Quest I.

Merudo (talk) 08:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

what
There's a handful of problems I see from a quick glance, but I'm really not sure how to fix them without making the article even less constructive. Those would be...

The entire second paragraph. Farming is a different thing entirely, and I haven't seen anyone use the terms "pushing the bar" or "cat assing" outside of verbose memes. No idea if it should be reworded, deleted or replaced with something else entirely.

The weird bias towards MMOs. It makes sure to mention them before anything else, like they're the entire reason grinding in games is popular. which isn't really wrong but other genres still exist and-

The motivation section. In what cases would someone deliberately grind for a negative outcome, besides things like bad endings?

The approach section, or at least its way of presenting them. Not that I can say for sure, still being relatively new here, but "game that does it > how that particular game does it" doesn't seem like a really good way to go about it. I think having the method first and then one or more examples would be better, and I could probably do it myself.

Anti-grinding features. Some games have them. The ones I'm more familiar with are having the main missions give more rewards, having a deliberately limited number of optional things to do (which a lot of turn-based RPGs are kinda forced to do, but series like PMD don't feel like it), putting less emphasis on whatever grinding can earn you or just making the game really easy. There's no mention of what can be done to avoid it.

I'd appreciate help with dealing with this, because I really can't think of a good way to do it on my own. cogsan (talk) 17:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)