Talk:Gringo/Archive 2009

gringo griego
I added a very specific reference in the article to a spanish/french 1817 dictionary that lists the words griego, gringo and guirigay as synonims. This predates the mexican american war by 30 years making some more colorful derivations much less likely. Enjoy!

--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramonmon (talk • contribs) 18:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "gringo from Greek?????!!!! never heard of it and with the exception of the quoted text completely unsupported. Might be ok to leave it as another possible poorly sourced explanation, but not as its real etymology!

The greens go! and the "lilacs" explanations are way more important because they are part of the popular representations of Latin Americans and Mexicans, even tough as the article correctly states they are quite probably not true either. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.174.93.137 (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

---

the term gringo is for the usa invader to mexico whit green uniforms we call them (gringos) GRINGOS

"Much of that which is below is inaccurate, excepting the assertion that the etymology traces back until at least the 17th century. The term is a variation on the Greek word, griego, or "foreigner." Hence "esto para los labradores era hablarles en Griego o gerigonça" which mutated to gringo." --

--The explanation above is an example of linguistic Eurocentrism. First of all, the transcription as well as the translation are wrong: "esto para los labradores era hablarles en griego." First, languages and nationalities are not capitalized in Spanish (i.e. griego, not Griego); second, the translation is "this for the workers was to speak to them in Greek." The word griego in this context means the Greek language, not foreigner.

I would expect nothing less than a Spaniard linguist to find an obscure reference like this one to link "gringo" to Spain. The Hispanic community is wrought with racial issues; another fine example of Spanish linguistic Eurocentrism is the fact that the Real Academia Espanola first recognized that Latin American Spanish has differences from the peninsular tongue in October of 2005. 2005! Imagine how snotty the British would seem if they first admitted American English is different than the "Queen's English" two years ago?! I have lived in Spain for near fifteen years and I speak Spanish more often than I do English; Spaniards do not use 'griego' nor 'gringo' for foreigner--nor is it an example of a word that fell out of use. If it were common, where are the other references beyond this one? In fact, it is a word I often need to explain to people here.

-- I read that the derivation of the term "Gringo", referring to a amercian by Latin Americans, came from the song "Green Grow the Lilacs"¹, which was often sung by US soldiers during the invasion of Mexico just prior to WW I. Any basis in fact, or is this yet another cute folk etymology? And in either case, does it warrant listing in the article?

I always learned that the term barbarian comes from the latin word for beard "barbam" because the tribes outside of rome grew long beards, while for many years it was highly unfashionable for a roman to have facial hair. This ended with Trajan, ironically a roman of celtic (barbarian) origin


 * No, the word is Greek, not Latin. It's a bit of a guess as to what exactly the point of the word is; a sneer at unintelligible speech is as good a guess as any. (Once you've decided that the barba part is the Latin word for "beard", the rest of the form is unanalyzable in terms of Latin morphology. Latin does have words with a noun-building suffix in -ro- but it's not productive in Classical Latin and I imagine largely invisible to the Romans themselves who, surely, didn't realized that a word like mūrus "wall" has a suffix *-ro-.) Alsihler 17:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No it is NOT Greek. This revisionist nonsense for which Wikipedia's tosser elite have become notorious.

¹Or maybe "Green Grow the Rushes-O", a Scots song. Jor 14:15, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

- The song is Irish and the term is also suppose to come from the San Patricios. The San Patricio FYI (As it most likely wasn't in your history book) http://www.vivasancarlos.com/patrick.html http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/SS/qis1.html http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1955/4/1955_4_20.shtml


 * The following is from Joan Corominas's Diccionario Crítico Etimológico Castellano e Hispánico:
 * esto para los labradores era hablarles en Griego o gerigonça. 1615 Quijote II.
 * In the 18th and 19th century, the word appears deformed as gringo, desde Terr.[?]:
 * ''gringos llaman en Málaga a los estranjeros, que tienen cierta especie de acento, que los priva de una locución fácil y natural Castellana, y en Madrid dan el mismo nombre con particularidad a los irlandeses"
 * Applied to people, also in Estébanez Calderón (no pocos gringos y extranjeros) and Emilia Pardo-Bazán (más vale una chula que treinta gringas)
 * --Error 00:42, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

When I was in Chile, I was given an explanation that combined the Mexican-American war and Brazilian examples: The American soliders occupying Mexico city wore green and the locals yelled at them "Green, go!" Also, I was told that "gringo" specifically applies to persons from the USA because they call the US "los Estados Unidos" and the term for a person from "los EU" is very long and clumsy (I never learned it properly, but it is something like "estadounitiense"). AdamRetchless 13:45, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Estadounidense. Yes, it is a little long. &mdash; Chameleon


 * ... and no better than the most common term I've heard, Norteamericano, which is humorous to me since Mexicans and Canadians should also be called that but they're not. I am careful never to call myself an "Americano", but the most common term I've heard people use around here (Eastern US) for me is, paradoxically, "Americano." I think the activists have made us more paranoid than we need to be. Fool4jesus

Actually my sources have an alternative and cuter explanation for the term gringo.

It seems that the Mexicans may have based the term on a misunderstanding of a popular north american song. The song was either "Green Grow the Rushes, Oh!" or "Green Grow the Lilacs" (itself based on the Scottish song "Green Grows the Laurel" and about an American solidier's love of a Mexican woman). The listening Mexicans could only make out the first few syllables, "Green Gro" and used it as a term of abuse.

Opinion is divided as to what period the term stems from. Either from the days of cowboys in south Texas, or during US army efforts to find Pancho Villa.

Gringo from greek!! -> Completely wrong!!


 * Again, the usage of the term in Spain goes way before either Pancho or Texas. I seriously doubt it was invented independently here in Latin America. Fool4jesus

It does not apply to white skinned people either. In mexico a gringo can be black, chinese, white, yellow or blue... the only requirement is to be comming from the USA. Sometimes British people are mistaken by gringos, but once that it is clear where they come from the nickname gringo does not apply anymore.

Gringo does not come either from the song... Imagine the time of the American invasion to Mexico **american music being sang or broadcasted via Radio! No!

As per the history learnt and the old people in Mexico, the accurate definition comes from nationals from Mexico shouting "green go" to the invaders as they were using green soldier clothes. +green go+ GRINGO < the way it sounds in Spanish.

Etymology
Gringo from Greek? Never heard this before. Never heard a Spanish speaking person of any country remfer to an incomprehensible language as "griego" I bet ALL Latin Americans when confronted with a foreign language or characters have the same reaction:  "That's 'chino' (Chinese)"  not griego!?


 * Uh, well, MY Spanish dictionary gives as one of the meanings of griego "unintelligible speech". That's pretty straightforward. I've been told that there's a verb that goes with it, griegar "to speak unintelligibly" but Cuyás doesn't have it. Alsihler 18:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I Don't understand why a poorly reasoned etymology is placed as the preferred origin of a word. Then present a "fake etymology" with a lengthy explanation including historical facts.


 * Read above, the usage goes as far as Quijote. Corominas is the authority on Spanish etimology. And there is the Shakesperean That's Greek to me. -- Error 01:37, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Time out. In the Shakespeare passage, from Julius Caesar, Greek means Greek. In Act 1 scene 2 Casca is describing an (offstage) assembly at which, he says, Cicero addressed the crowd in Greek. He relates that those who understood were entranced, but he couldn't say more because (after all) it was Greek. It hath become proverbial, butas is often the case in quotations, in a slightly skewed sense from the original. [Note: addressing a public gathering in Greek would be an unlikely event in Rome; upper crust Romans were universally steeped in Greek language and culture, but were jealous of Latin. Cicero got into trouble once for addressing the Syracusan assembly in Greek when, as an emissary of Rome, he should have stuck to Latin.]Alsihler 18:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

12/23/06-No, Corominas isn't "the" authority on the spanish language. First of all he is catalan from spain. I think i trust the mexicans more to explain a word that they made popular. Even if the word does originate from a few hundred years ago in spain, which it probably doesnt, it is not the same as the current usage in latin america. The most reasonable explanation for the word is the "green go" explanation.


 * It seems to me that the fact that the word was used in Spain hundreds of years earlier than Mexico IS important, unless you are making the claim that the word was invented completely independently on both sides of the Atlantic. That seems doubtful to me, especially since the usage in American Spanish is not that much different than the usage in Peninsular. Sure, there are nuances of difference, but that seems much more likely to have come about through isolated usage of the same root word, not completely different formulations. I mean, use a reasonableness test: if somebody came up to you and said "I just made up the word computer to refer to a Blackberry, but it has no relation to the other English word of the same sound and spelling" would you think the argument reasonable? Fool4jesus 17:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

"Never heard a Spanish speaking person of any country remfer to an incomprehensible language as "griego": One reason for this is that the supposed etymology would be much more ancient.  I understand that the The word "greek" or "grecian" is derived from Latin and originally meant "foreign", rather than being specific to the Hellenic states.  This meaning did survive in a number of romance languages.  The "green coat" theory sounds much paler to me, for one thing it seems unlikely that a localized war would result in such a generalized epithet.

"Gringo" meaning light skinned? I have never heard the word "gringo" used in such a neutral way: it always connotates nationality (usually U.S., often Canadian, sometimes any predominantly white-European foreign nation). It sounds as though somebody has confused the word "gringo" with "güero".


 * The Diccionario de la Real Academia Española doesn't provide an etymology, it just says that it is "debated" . I don't think the "griego" story should be presented as a fact, if apparently an authority such as RAE doesn't buy it. Itub 18:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * As far as etymology's concerned, the RAE are amateurs alongside Corominas. María Moliner is happy with the "griego" explanation, too. It might not be 100% certain, but it does seem the most likely alternative. –Hajor 18:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

This line is quite unclear and appears to be redundant, removed 14:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC):


 * Edit 21:55, 27 May 2006 201.145.108.67
 * Also is important to say, that in Mexico was used as "Green Go" that is pronounced in spanish as "gringo", this was used by people that dislike american soldiers.

I'm sorry, this article is very biased to one possible scenario. Who is keeping such a tight grip on this entry that other informed scholars cannot edit it? I support the dispute of this article's neutrality. I have no political issue with the term (where I work as an anthropologist the term is MUCH more nuanced than this article states, so others should be able to edit the article). Is there any way for me to further my support of the dispute over neutrality?Chunchucmil 23:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "I have no political issue with the term" -- Does that mean you don't know much about it? If you have a reliable source that accepts any of the popular etymologies as factual, then present it. Otherwise, read this: "Equal weight" is not Neutral. FilipeS 00:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with FilipeS. What I (and others) need to do is to cite all of the references that provide alternative etymologies. However, such edits should then be accepted, not as "false" etymologies, but alternative etymologies. While my research deals with terms much older than "gringo" (largely Pre-Columbian or early Colonial Mesoamerica), I honestly do not believe that the etymology of this term is as fixed as is intimated by this article.Chunchucmil 00:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Permit me to make an observation. I have heard many examples of words which have etymologies that claim somebody came in speaking another language, somebody either misheard or intentionally mispronounced the word/phrase, and that's how we got the word. I don't think I've ever heard one of those types of etymologies that was correct, whether Jolly Roger or Cecil Adams's well-known example of [|Marie Antoinette]. So, "Green Go" may be a possible etymology, but based on the other etymologies I've investigated, it just doesn't sound plausible to me. Fool4jesus 17:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The word was not born because of the "Green Grows..." song, nor the "Green+go" theory, because the Mexican-American War was fought from 1846 to 1848, and "gringo" is documented in Argentina as early as 1840:
 * ''Salió el gringo, como pudo, después, a la orilla, más con la apariencia de un demonio tostado por las llamas del infierno que de un hombre blanco pelirrubio. (Esteban Echeverría, "El Matadero", Leonor Fleming, Madrid:Cátedra, 1995, p. 106 and others)
 * and 1845:
 * Desgraciadamente, añade el buen gringo, prefirieron su independencia nacional, a nuestros algodones y muselinas. (Domingo Faustino Sarmiento, Facundo. Civilización y barbarie'', Roberto Yanhi, Madrid:Cátedra, 1993, p.65).
 * I'm mexican and I've exclusively heard "griego" to mean "stanger/different/difficult" from foreigners. As someone said before, the normal word for that meaning here would be "chino" (chinese). How come that a 1600's "griego" is considered equivalent to a 1800's "gringo"?
 * There are derived words as "gringada" and "Gringolandia" (also "Gabacholandia").
 * Finally, I promise you that the use is not predominantly racist, it rather refers in many cases to a geographical-linguistical-economical difference with our people.--Rosaura Silva 05:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Intent is irrelevant. The politically correct crowd often argues that its not what YOU mean, but how it is interpreted.


 * Both intent and interpretation are irrelevant to this discussion of etymology. FilipeS 17:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me that no other Spanish word morphed its ending from "iego" to "ingo". Nobody says "cingo" for "ciego", and nobody calls their friend Diego "Dingo". Ninguém (talk) 10:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Green Go
I´m Mexican, my grandfather says that when the US army came to mexico a long time ago, mexicans not knowing english lenguage, wrote on the walls, like graffiti paints GREEN GO (thinking that means "green go away"), the used the color green because they got green eyes, and wear green uniforms. In section 3 above, I see not a date before 1615. The first reference to the term "gringo" (not griego") is dated in the XVIII century. Well post-Columbus. Furthermore, I see no connection at all between both terms. I wholeheartly agree that the common reference in Spanish for incomprehensive foreign language is "chino". Frankly, Cervantes litarary style cannot be considered that of the folk. On the other hand, in Venezuela, my home country, "gringo" is any American, in a completely non derogative way. In the 50's and 60's it was widely regarded as a Mexican term.
 * See section 3 above. This is a thoroughly discredited etymology, but it is addressed in the article because it is so widely believed.  The word gringo was in Spain before Spaniards came to the New World.  You'd think this would be eveidence enough to discredit this theory, but alas...--Hraefen Talk 15:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It should be mentioned that the US Army actually had blue, not green uniforms during the Mexican-American War. Therefore the "Green Go"-theory makes no sense. Green uniforms were not in use before WWI. 201.229.221.132 (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)Mortran

UK/Australia?
The term (at least is Spain) is only referred to people from USA; it doesn´t include UK nor Australia.--Xareu bs 13:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Also in Colombia and Panama, never heard it refering to someone besides U.S. Citizens —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.140.201.190 (talk) 22:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It depends in Mexico, although for us gringo in mainly an adjective for US white people, some other people use it for any white people (Australia, Canada, UK) even people that is not white, like African American People since for them American equals White foreigner,or simply foreigner (that does not speak Spanish), but this only occurs when there is lack of litteracy on World geography and nationalities.. So most of them probably just thought you were an American. anyways we have little contact with other english speaking people. (UTC) Also when we use gringo as a peyorative, we usually think of the gringo that took our land, or the gringo that pay you so little to do their hard work, or simply the white guy down the corner that doesnt understand us (linguistically and/orculturally) all this usually has to do with Us white citizens. (UTC) We will call a Chinese, El chino a Korean, El chino, a Japanese el chino, The africanamerican el negro o el moreno, and other people usually by other peyoratives or pseudonyms, since is easier-- 15:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tetzaoncoatl (talk • contribs)

In México: Gringo = People of the United States (regardless of race)

I am Mexican living in México, and the word gringo is used refering to any "Estadounidense" regardless of race. We do distinguish their classless accent.

Les llamamos gringos solo a los "estadounidenses" sin importar la raza, sabemos reconocer ese vulgar forma de hablar Inglés.

Gringo it's not a racial slur
I edited that phrase from the first paragraph. I belive that statement it's quite disputable to say the least. Just look at this talk page. Anyway, I hope no one reverses this edit, at least not without some good reasons. 200.56.184.228 17:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Corrigiendo Nomás


 * Not is, because is associated to germanics and north-slavs races and not is a agressive term!! gringo = peoples of other countries(especially with fenotipe of the germanics peoples and their descendents)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.77.13 (talk) 09:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Spaniards! ¡Españoles! Espagnols !
In english: Sorry if i don't speak very well english, but i want to tell something. The definition of "gringo" (and "gabacho" too) is like: "not hispanic people"!! It's like terms as: "haole" for hawaii's people or "gayjin" for japanese people (it seems "someone foreign"). And i want also speak about the spanish people origins! The spagniards are one of the most mixed people of the world! they have a lot of origins, like: Iberians (with "berbers" origins), phoenicians ("near east" origins), greeks, romans, carthaginians ("maghreb" origins), moors ("arabs & berbers" origins), but also with "sephardim" & "romani people" origins!! So, i think they are most "mediteranean & oriental people" than "european people"!!

En castellano: Lo que quiero decir, es que la palabra "gringo" (y "gabacho" tambien) signifaca "gente sin origen hispano". En este caso, esta palabra designa alguien que es extranjero al pueblo autóctono. Es igual que la palabra "haole" para la gente de Hawái; o "gayjin" por los japones. Ambas palabras designan alguien que es extranjero a la gente autóctona. Me parece importante de fijar otra cosa ¡los espagñoles tienen muchos origenes! Ellas vienen sobretodo del oriente, como: los iberos (de origen: bereber), los fenicios (de origen: libanés, sirio y palestino), los griegos, los romanos, los cartagenios (de origen: tunecino), los moros (arabico-bereber) y tambien los sefardies y los gitanos. Pues, podemos decir que ¡¡el pueblo español es más "mediterraneo y oriental" que un "puro pueblo europeo"!!

En francais: Il faut bien comprendre une chose, c'est que le terme "gringo", ainsi que le terme "gabacho", ont pour sens "personne non-hispanique" (donc quelqu'un qui n'est ni d'origine espagnole, ni d'origine latino-américaine). En résumé cela designe une personne qui est étrangère au peuple autochtone. C'est comme les mots "haole" ou "gayjin" pour les hawaiens et les japonais. Il est important aussi de préciser que les origines des espagnols sont principalement orientales, par exemple: les ibère (d'origine berbère), les phéniciens (du proche-orient), les greques, les romains ainsi que les carthaginois (venant de tunisie), les maures (arabo-berbère) ainsi que les juifs orientaux (sépharades) et les gitans (tziganes). Donc ce qui est clair c'est que les espagnols sont, et ce depuis toujours, un peuple méditerranéen aux origines orientales, plus qu'un pays réellement européen!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.164.3.178 (talk) 18:24, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. Spaniards are mainly European, as all genetic studies show. Spaniards apart from language don't see themselves related to "Hispanics" at all, in any case only to Argentines or other full-blooded Spaniards living in Latin-America. They have much more in common with someone from Italy than with the average Mexican or Puerto Rican. They don't consider Mestizos as part of their own, and many suffer the same discrimination in Spain as they would suffer in other parts of Europe. I've been living in Barcelona for almost ten years now and they have serious issues with the recent flood of Latin-American immigrants moving to their country. --80.30.160.22 (talk) 23:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Gringo = "barbarians"
barbarians = peoples with other languages

Not is a pejorative term and is associated to germanics peoples(anglo-saxons, germans, etc...)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.77.13 (talk) 09:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

THE Real Definition of Gringo
Gringo does not mean White, this would be stupid as Latin America (which includes all Portuguese, Spanish and French speaking countries+Canada) yes Canada is part o Latin America. Well anyway it means Stranger or Foreigner. Gringo is not white, Latin America's po is about 50% roughly white so why would they seperate themselves from their own race? Its stupid when a "gringo" goes to a spanish speaking crowd says "si im a gringo" and notices everyone is white spanish speaking in the audience. The White Mexican and the White English American are the same we are all from Europe at least our ancestors and no not all Latin Americans mixed with Indians, so stop it, People think my name is like Conrad or Tyler but actually its Carlos, im a natural blonde mexican, we do exsist to get educated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.0.177.144 (talk) 04:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Canadienses
It was explained to me in Mexico years ago, along with the "Green Go!" story, that Canadians are not considered gringos, which is reserved for Americans. No doubt in casual usage it is used for Canadians, but apparently as soon as someone is known to be a canadiense they are recognized as not being gringos. The reason I'm mentioning this is it may be that this only applies in Mexico, and the mention of this in the opening paragraphs should maybe be qualified by which countries it applies in; Cuba, Guatemala, Honduras, Dominincan Republic etc maybe, can't say about South America; but my impression in my one week in Sao Paulo was that the Brazilian usage did include Canadians; but I'm thinking that in countries where "snowbirds" and other Canadian visitors/residents are common the distinctions between American and Canadian behaviour/mannerisms and even clothing are familiar and simply being white and from anglophone North America isn't enough to warrant "gringo" as a term; Quebeckers and Acadians and other Franco-Canadians were invariably referred to as frances or frances canadienses....Skookum1 (talk) 02:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Grignollo in Italo-English?
Just came across this gem in The Complete Idiot's Guide to Italian History and Culture and La Merica: Images of Italian Greenhorn experience. Used by Italian immigrants in early 20th century US to refer to newcomers. Etymology is "greenhorn" and looks very similar to the Spanish "gringo". Perhaps it can be worked into the article somewhere. Squidfryerchef (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)