Talk:Groans of the Britons

Groans
It would be useful if this article could throw any more light on the word "Groans". What on earth does the word mean in the context in which it is being used? --Tagishsimon (talk)


 * Gemitus means 'a sigh or groan'. I don't know quite why Gildas choose that word but it's always translated that way. I'll add something that makes it clearer that is was a pained appeal for help. adamsan 21:35, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It's sometimes translated as 'lamentations'. &#8212;No-One Jones (m) 23:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Picts and Scots
Surely the Groan of the Britons was not for aid against the Saxons but against the Picts and Scots? Gildas says this himself - the Groan is mentioned before the Saxons' arrival... DeRaquis (talk) 12:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)


 * You are right. Gildas is talking about the Picts and Scots. The whole section of the article about the Saxons is unsourced and needs to go. Indeed I'm not sure why there's even an article on this.--Cúchullain t/ c 12:10, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Lead sentence contradicts rest of article
Currently the lead sentence is


 * The Groans of the Britons (Latin: gemitus Britannorum[1]) is the name of the final appeal made by the Britons to the Roman military for assistance against Anglo-Saxon invasion. [my bolding]

But the rest of the article says the appeal was for assistance against the Picts and Scots, not the Anglo-Saxons, and that the Anglo-Saxons were invited in for that defense, rather than invading. I think the first sentence needs to be corrected. Loraof (talk) 00:28, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

In fact, the term "Anglo-Saxon" was put in here in late 2014 by an IP editor with only four edits. I'm going to correct this. Loraof (talk) 00:34, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Hengist and Horsa
This article states that Gildas mentions Hengist and Horsa, which would seem to contradict the article Hengist_and_Horsa, which gives Bede as the first attestation. Searching this translation, I don't see any mention of H&H. Can someone more expert than me clear this up? Iapetus (talk) 16:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The translation does not name them, but it does mention the narrative that Vortigern invited the Saxons to defend him as mercenaries in cap. 23: "Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Gurthrigern [Vortigern], the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations. Nothing was ever so pernicious to our country, nothing was ever so unlucky. What palpable darkness must have enveloped their minds-darkness desperate and cruel!". Saying Gildas names H&H is a bit misleading but the general idea of a mercenary-army-gone-wrong is shared by both authors. GPinkerton (talk) 16:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should remove the specific names. Johnbod (talk) 17:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. All that bit needs work & refs though. Johnbod (talk) 17:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)