Talk:Grog/Archive 1

Grog in Games section gone
I removed the grog in games section entirely, as it was pointless and was lowering the quality of what is otherwise a good article. It was the most trivial of trivia. --Xyzzyplugh 15:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Black Tot Day
The photo says July 31st and the article says July 30. Which is it? Amber388 15:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Great Article
I don't even care if there are page numbers in the references. I love the storytelling style/tone, how were you able to maintain it in a group-written article? What terrific wikiwork, perfect for reading late Saturday night in wintertime. Thank you! ~ Otterpops (talk) 03:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Myths and stories?
Doesn this section make any sense at all? I mean, it's a nice joke, but in no way elucidating other than "Sailors like booze." --Syzygy (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Limeys
"This custom, in time, got the British the nickname limeys for the lemons they consumed, (called limes at the time)." Is it the case that lemon's used to be called limes. A reference would be called for if this is the case.

Lemons were found to be more effective, but the Caribbean colonies mostly produced limes and so they were used. Lemons were not known as limes at that time. Martinusscriblerus (talk) 10:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

About the origin of the word "grog"
I want to propose another possible origin of the word "grog", the catalan word "groc", -yellow-, with the same pronunciation. Catalonia in the XVI, XVII, and XVIII centuries was a great producer of liquors, and a great part of the production was sold to English sailors or merchants or to the Royal Navy (The U.K. was an allied of Catalonia in the Spanish Succession War, between 1705 and 1712, and after the war, the British had the control of Menorca island during eighty years, and the population of Menorca is catalan-speaking). Between the most alcoholic liquors, one prove of the quality was the color, or in this case, the absence of colour. The high-quality liquours were crystal clear, and very expensive, and the cheapests ones, and of less quality were yellow ("groc" in catalan). The reason of the adquisition of the word by the british sailors in this explanation is that when the British sailors or merchants wanted to buy the cheapest liquour to the catalan merchants, they wanted "el groc", the yellow one. This is also consistent with the infamous reputation of the "grog". Saioric 01:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

By all means introduce this suggested origin - if you have a reference to cite. Otherwise this would sound like original research (or possibly conjecture). I'm just considering amending the etymology back to coming from Admiral Vernon, based on World Wide Words, in its 15 Mar 08 newsletter. Earthlyreason (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I have also read the World Wide Words article on grog and remembered the reference to Defoe. I checked the reference given in Google Books and found that it said "ginger" not "grog" ("The Family Instructor, page 626). This was from an 1816 edition so it is possible that an earlier edition of Defoe's book did say "grog". I have brought this to Michael Quinion's attention. Martinusscriblerus (talk) 10:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I have always heard the traditional explanation of the word, "grog", but here is a possible clinker: my mother's maiden name was Grogger. Her ancestors came from Austria and were tavern owners. It's possible, therefore that the word, grog, anticeded the old Admiral and that his nickname came from an old german word for cheap alcohol. Woof-pack (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Is that what "grogger" means in German?  Is there any other evidence suggesting a connection?  John M Baker (talk) 20:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol content of Navy Rum?
The article now says that "Until the grog ration was discontinued in 1970, Navy rum was 95.5 proof, or 54.6 per cent alcohol". However, the two numbers don't match -- 95.5 proof is the same as 47.75 per cent alcohol, and 54.6 per cent alcohol is 109.2 proof. (200 proof == 100% alcohol.) I don't know which number is correct, and I don't know where to find the correct number; is there anyone who has a good reference? Chip Unicorn 17:37, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * According to | Pusser's web site, they use the recipe for the original vendor of rum to the British navy. They offer their rum in three different proofs (without saying which one was actually used): 95.5 proof, 108 proof, and 84 proof.  I'm going to assume that the 95.5 proof is the real one, since it matches one of the numbers already in the article. Chip Unicorn 17:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * 100% alcohol = 200 proof is the American definition, in the UK it was 100% alcohol = 175 proof - see Alcoholic proof. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Grog in the state of Colorado
Grog in the state of Colorado has been supported and expanded largely by the efforts of one Scott Eugene Groginsky, who distills his own grog variant in unincorporated Blackhawk, CO in Gilpin County. His grog, named "The Great Grog" after his family name hailing from Eastern European Jewry, is approximately 38 percent ABV, and is usually served at county administrative or local school board dinner parties accompanied by hot green chile dishes native to the front range of Colorado. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.131.226.254 (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Which gallon
The article claims that the sizes used for grog were the same as those based on the current American gallon, which was the old wine gallon. But I have always understood that rum, beer, and water were measured with a different gallon, the ale gallon, at that point, larger and closer to the current Imperial gallon. For the purposes of determining proportions, that doesn't matter, of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Thacker (talk • contribs) 14:01, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer, but having the article say the half-pint of rum was "half of 473 ml [the] current American measurement" seemed confusing, seeing as we are talking about a British practice from more than 250 years ago. I have replaced the dubious statement with a footnote. And yes, it is the proportion that is significant here, rather than the actual amounts. Moonraker12 (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Were sailors really given a gallon of beer a day?
It seems to me they would be drunk all day long with that much. Is there a source? 76.24.182.188 (talk) 01:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The beer in question would be low-alcohol "small beer", which was the everyday beverage of Europe and America for centuries, being far less liable to contamination than most available water - a gallon a day was a fairly modest consumption for anyone performing manual work. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It still needs a source. A gallon is a heck of a lot of liquid. 31.54.37.241 (talk) 00:02, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Modern Usage
I'd have thought Grog was mainly of historical interest, but most of the Introduction here seemed to be about modern drinks called "grog": So I have split them out into a Modern Usage section; it seemed to be the best way to present the subject. I trust everyone is OK with that. Moonraker12 (talk) 22:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * One aspect not covered in this section is the modern use of 'grog' within mainstream British English. The term is archaic and very rarely heard, and most British people without a naval background will have no idea what it means. This is in sharp contrast to Australia where the term is common slang for any alcohol. --Ef80 (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

False reference
Eight and a half years ago user Pingku made an edit claiming a reference that didn't exist:

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=grog&diff=next&oldid=11570071

According to him the linked reference supported that Catalan was the etymological origin or grog, but if you visit the link these are the data about grog provided:


 * When I first began making pots, I was naturally curious about the new words I was learning - words which didn't seem to make much sense. Until then, I had thought grog was a rum drink, slip was something 'twixt the cup and the lip, and I wondered why on earth wheel work was called throwing. Since I had the skills in etymology to answer these questions myself, I eventually got around to doing just that.


 * Four words whose origins are unknown, but which are probably quite old, are to wedge, bat, grog, and saggar. Their monosyllabic forms would seem to indicate Anglo-Saxon roots, but no evidence exists to prove that one way or the other. Even the Oxford English Dictionary sheds no light on their derivation.


 * Grog. As used by potters, grog must be a figment of our imaginations because it is not listed in any of the major dictionaries I consulted. (It is found in An Illustrated Dictionary of Ceramics.) The Oxford English Dictionary lists only the meaning for the rum drink. Perhaps if potters who read this would send sharp letters of protest to the editors of Random House, Oxford English, and other dictionaries, this deplorable situation could be corrected.

And this is all the information about grog. Absolutely NOTHING at all about etymology. No information on it. Nothing about Catalan language.

So, I've decided to remove this link, as it provides no information at all and, also, remove the unsupported theory about the Catalan origin of the word, that seems to have been spreading from this wiktionary to the internet, disinforming people for years.

--77.75.179.1 (talk) 17:47, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Good catch! Maybe can explain what happened? Ibadibam (talk) 04:43, 30 December 2019 (UTC)


 * , : A word of advice (although I thought this would have been obvious): if you're going to complain about an edit in a different Wikimedia project, that complaint would more usefully be made at the project concerned. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, nobody has "caught" anything. (Also, be aware that in other projects things aren't necessarily done the same way as in Wikipedia.)


 * As to what I was thinking 8+ years ago, I can't be completely confident. However, it seems that the claim was already there (i.e., it was not mine) and I was trying to find a source. Perhaps I thought someone might improve on it. In any case, this is not the place for such discussion.


 * It only remains for me to thank 77.75.179.1 for their edit of the Wiktionary entry.— Pingkudimmi 08:38, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Aha! I had assumed the IP was referring to content that had been proliferated to this Wikipedia article. Now that I search the article history I see that wasn't the case, so tsk tsk, anon, for your choice of venue. In any event, I will leave this discussion in place on this page so there is a record, in case anyone ever wants to further investigate groc. Ibadibam (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Ration
"A half pint of rum mixed with one quart of water and issued in two servings before noon and after the end of the working day became part of the official regulations of the Royal Navy in 1756 and lasted for more than two centuries."

vs.

"Until the grog ration was discontinued in 1970, Navy rum was 95.5 proof, or 47.75% alcohol; the usual ration was an eighth of a pint, diluted 2:1 with water (3:1 until World War II). Extra rum rations were provided for special celebrations, like Trafalgar Day, and sailors might share their ration with the cook or with a messmate celebrating a birthday."

This is inconsistent, which ration and ratio is correct?


 * The strength of the rum was almost but not quite invariable, and depended upon the source of it. That in turn depended upon the location of the ship, and might be stereotypical origins such as Jamaica or Barbados but also others such as St Croix or even African places.
 * In the 60's and 70's at least, the standard issue for ratings below Petty Officer was one issue from around 1130 onwards of a "regular" dilution of 2:1 in glasses which held a little less than 8 ounces, which corresponds nicely with about three eighths of a pint. Be that as it may, it did happen more than once that the dilution was a little stronger... and the amount subject to the rum bo'sun's desire to empty the barrel. It was normally issued on the cable deck of larger ships, although some adhered to the way of issuing the tot in a reserved container (a rum fanny) for each mess.  In the case of a large ship there could be 30 or more "G" ratings in a mess, which led to a large amount of liquid to be shared... and invariably there would be 1 or 2 or more tots extra per fanny.  There were particular customs observed that involved sharing an indefinite portion of one's issue with a shipmate or few, but they are too lengthy to go into here.

My source is not up to WP standards, being personal experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JH49S (talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Grog recipe poem
What about the old recipe poem:

One of Sour, Two of Sweet. Three of Strong, Four of Weak

meaning 1 part lime juice, 2 parts sugar, 3 parts rum and 4 parts water --Mainstreetmark (talk) 19:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * An interesting recipe, but not one used in the Royal Navy. No sugar, lime juice, herbs or spices; it was always simply rum and water. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JH49S (talk • contribs) 21:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Mojito similar to grog???
Besides both drinks containing rum, how is a grog similar to mojito? Mojito has its root from Cuba. The only modern drinks that derives its lineage to the grog is the Navy Grog, then perhaps the entire family of tiki drinks. Paranoid123 (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Any objections to me removing the mojito reference? Paranoid123 (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I object to removal.  Both drinks contain rum AND sugar AND lime AND water.  The only significant difference is the mint.  I think it is interesting that a drink currently considered very modern, trendy, and fashionable is, in fact, so similar to one of the oldest and most humble drinks.  I'm going to reinsert the reference to grog in a day or two if no one objects.Newell Post (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support re-insertion Nutiketaiel (talk) 14:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm still going to push to not reinstate the mojito as a grog derivative. Simply having similar ingredients does not make it so.  What about the daiquiri?  The mint julep?  Where does it end?  If we can find historic cocktail recipe books that prove their lineage, then okay.  Paranoid123 (talk) 20:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Grog, as used in the Royal Navy - its chief source - was never anything but rum and water. One explanation for this was that, having been diluted with water, the mix did not keep and therefore could not be saved up for a more serious drinking session.  Most RN people who had the rum issue might sneer at anyone who suggested adding lime juice or (shudder) sugar, so would probably regard the lime/sugar mix or mojito as pandering to weaklings.JH49S (talk) 22:04, 1 August 2022 (UTC)