Talk:Grosmont Castle

Copyright
There's a bit of worry about the copyright of this article - I notice Castle99uk cites his own website as the origin of the text - but this site also seems to include the same text - any ideas? --Mcginnly | Natter 09:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I put a plagiarism tag. I suppose he plagiarized himself. I guess its either plagiarism or original research. CJ DUB 04:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna have go at fixing it. CJ DUB 00:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The work is my copyright as should be stated under www.castlewales.com. I am reinstating myself as it is original research. Hope this clears maters up. --Paul Remfry (talk) 14:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Original research is actually not allowed by wikipedia. You have to properly cite all the material. 19:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ DUB (talk • contribs)

Apologies, my error with a sloppy statement - what I have written is a summary of properly cited original research as published in the refrences. Hope that this clears the matter up--Paul Remfry (talk) 21:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed material -had been originally copied from a website-
It was quite possibly founded by William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford during his Norman invasion of South Wales in 1070. Earl William was killed the next year and his son Roger was stripped of his lands in 1075. The land on which Grosmont castle was built now passed either under the control of the de Ballun family of Abergavenny or the Lacys of Weobley and Longtown. The powerful Marcher Baron Pain Fitz John acquired Grosmont in the reign of King Henry I of England (1100-35) and converted it into the head of a lordship which stretched from White Castle in the west to Orcop castle in the east.

History
During the early twelfth century the castle was the centre or caput of what was known as the honour of Grosmont. Of the present remains, the great hall was one of the first features constructed of the castle and this was used as the civil capital of the lordship, constructed around 1201-1204/5 by Hubert de Burgh, 1st Earl of Kent.

The early hall at Grosmont was most probably built within forty years either side of 1110. It still stands two stories high and has many features of comfort within its walls. There are many reasons to believe that this hall was built early in the castle's history for the evidence points clearly to Grosmont castle having been fortified in stone from the first. Who actually first built the castle though, is more of a problem.

Both the first Earls of Hereford and Pain Fitz John had a great deal of wealth and ruled the Kingdom of Gwent at a time when the stable rule of the Normans in Wales seemed inevitable. Grosmont hall is certainly not a fortress. It was built as the administrative centre of a barony with both comfort and administration in mind. White Castle to the west, however, was built as a fortress from the first, probably in concert with the foundation of Grosmont. Orcop castle to the east, a true motte and bailey fortress, may be older.

In 1134 rebellion broke out in Wales and in July 1137 Pain Fitz John was killed in action fighting against the Welsh. Immediately before his death Pain granted all his honour of Grosmont to King Stephen in exchange for the province of Archenfield. With the Angevin rebellion of 1139 Brian Fitz Count of Abergavenny took Grosmont castle from the King and in 1142 granted it by charter to Walter Hereford. This is our first certain historical mention of the fortress. Walter was killed around 1160 fighting in the Holy Land. At this point King Henry II (1154-89) reclaimed the castle and placed royal soldiers within its walls. The castle, requiring little maintenance, remained a royal fortress for the next forty years. In 1201 it was granted to Hubert de Burgh ‘for his maintenance' in the wars of the period.

After the death of King John in 1216 Hubert regained his castles in the Welsh Marches in 1219. It was Hubert who was responsible for turning the administrative castle of Grosmont into a fortress. Royal records from when Hubert was running the government of England, show that he was undertaking building work at Grosmont between 1224 and 1226. His work gave the castle much of its appearance today. His buildings included the gatehouse, which has mostly disappeared in the last 100 years, and the three D-shaped towers in the castle's enceinte. In 1233 the castle witnessed the rout of King Henry III's army by rebel English and Welsh forces, who included in their midst Earl Hubert Burgh himself! In the aftermath of this victory Hubert was granted back Grosmont castle and he held it until his final fall from grace in 1239.

In 1267 King Henry III granted the castle to his second son Prince Edmund and this man undertook the conversion of the fortress of Earl Hubert de Burgh into one of his main residences. He demolished one of Hubert Burgh's D-shaped towers and built accommodation over it and raised the height and extended the south-west tower to make it into a five-storeyed great tower or keep. The living quarters of this massive tower could only be approached via a wooden stairway to the north. To the east was a giant false doorway which only allowed access to the ground and first floors. The steps currently seen rising up to the castle wall walk from this doorway is the work of twentieth century restorers who are also responsible for the creation of much of the double doorway into the early hall.

Most of Prince Edmund's rebuilding at Grosmont was carried out probably in the period 1274 to 1294. Part of this reconstruction included the building of the great chimney of which Grosmont is justifiably famous. Before leaving the village of Grosmont be sure to visit the church, the nave of which is built in the same style as the early great hall of the castle. The tower and other parts of the church fabric were built by Prince Edmund for his mother, Queen Eleanor, the wife of Henry III. Within its walls are the much eroded remains of an effigy of a knight, probably of the thirteenth century. There is now no evidence as to this knight's identity, but perhaps he was the engineer Ralph Grosmont, so strongly entwined with the history of all three royal castles of Skenfrith, Grosmont and White Castle.

Plan
I think the plan currently used in the article may be copyrighted. It's come from Geograph, but the plan looks professionally produced and at a guess I'd say it's a photograph of an information board on the site. If that is the case, I don't think it's covered by freedom of panorama as it would be a photograph of a 2-D work. I ran into a similar issue with Maiden Castle, Dorset where I thought a photograph of a plan make an excellent illustration, as it does here, but it was deleted because it was under copyright. Nev1 (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced it is still under copyright I'm afraid; it is from the site (complete with the "you are here" marker!) and will be copyright Cadw. I've added a note at Commons. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I bow to others' superior wisdom on this - I assumed that, because it had been uploaded as part of a batch from Geograph, the copyright issues had been cleared - but, if not, take it out by all means. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're looking to take the article to GA, by the way, drop us a line; I can probably draw you a plan given a few days notice. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's possible the person who uploaded it to geograph didn't realise it would be copyrighted. I've removed the plan but I'm currently looking at some commons compatible images on flickr so might add them to the article. Nev1 (talk) 21:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

What are people's opinions on using this photo or this one as a replacement for the current lead image? Nev1 (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The most characteristic feature of the castle is the tall chimney, which is best shown in the current infobox image in my view - it also shows the red sandstone colour better. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the chimney is the most striking feature of the castle or simply the tallest, but if that's what the sources say I suppose that's a good reason to stick with the image. It's not a terribly inspiring picture of the castle, though the others don't really show the reddish tinge. Nev1 (talk) 22:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Citation style...
Hi. Over the next month or so, I'd like to take this article forward to GA status. As part of that work, I'd like to propose using the harnvb template short citation system throughout, backed up by the "cite web" template, with the bibliography using the "cite book" templates, and "cite web" templates as necessary. As an example of this in practice, see Henry I of England. I think that short citations for articles with a large number of citations are easier to read and to edit. This would represent a change to the current style, and would therefore require prior consensus, as per MOS:CITE.

Comments welcomed! Hchc2009 (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Generally agreed, but rather than, why not   which does much the same thing, but in one step?  Also, and rather separately, I think the brackets are useful and make it clearer to read. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:30, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Hubert de Burgh, 1st Earl of Kent
I see that Grosmont isn't directly mentioned in his article, which seems a bit of an oversight? Appears only once in the title of a book in the Bibliography. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

15 Quid?
That figure of £15 really stands out like a sore thumb. I initially missed the information in the note at the end of the sentence, and even on reading it doesn't really bring such a small sum into the right context. It might help if we could state the time period for that income of £200 - per year I would assume. I would also suggest moving that note to immediately after the £15 figure. FactotEm (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * An explanatory footnote has now been added which gives some context to that sum. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)