Talk:Grover Cleveland/Archive 1

age in Buchanan campaign?
It says he was 28 when he helped Buchanan. However, wasn't Buchanan elected in 1856, and wasn't Cleveland born in 1837?

first lady
First Lady Frances Cleveland was originally Frances Folsom before marriage to Grover Cleveland. Reason of edit: full maiden name appears in most presidential bios. --65.73.0.137

Grover Cleveland married Frances Folsom. When she was First Lady, she was Frances Cleveland. If you want to say in the text that her maiden name was Folsom, please do so, but it's inappropriate to call her Frances Folsom when calling her First Lady. RickK 23:11, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

You have a point, but also note that the format I inserted in was also used in other presidential bios even before my editing streak on Presidents. --User:65.73.0.137

Just because something is wrong doesn't mean you should make other things wrong, too. RickK 23:20, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

And why not?! If something is wrong, make it all right. I am not violating any rules (I don't think). --User:65.73.0.137

What's this about his sister being his first lady? It's in the infobox, but I couldn't find anything about it in the article itself.

death
One can die while insane, but insanity is a legal term about one's competency, not a definable medical condition or a disease in the true sense. So it cannot be what Cleveland died of. As I do not know what he died of, I'm not competent to make the edit! User: Rlquall 24 Jun 04 23:48 UTC


 * An anonymous editor added the line about insanity and gave this Medical History of President Grover Cleveland as a source. It looks like a very dubious authority to me, and none of the other bios mentioned insanity or mental disability. His obituary gave the cause of death as a heart attack. older &ne; wiser 01:03, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Swinging bachelor?
Mention is made of the Cleveland's bachelor status, but what about the illegitimate child rumors? There are several different circulating versions of 1. the extent to which the story was circulated during the campaign 2. the extent to which Cleveland addressed the issue head on. Ellsworth 17:08, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The following was posted to the main article by 4.232.234.222 on 21 January 2006, and reverted by Wisco as "unsourced, hearsay". I agree with Wisco, but want to preserve the information in a slightly more permanent way than as a reverted edit.  Here is the posting:


 * In about 1951 or 1952 I worked in a saw mill in Kamiah Idaho with the son of Grover Cleveland. I was a teenager and he was a man maybe in his sixties and had the lowest job in the mill. His name was Minor Bethman, a shy taciturn man with a good family who owned and operated the local movie house and drive-in movie.


 * As I remember the story, his mother, Freda Bethman had worked in the white house or was a family friend. When Freda got with child she was shipped to Idaho to the end of the railroad (at the time).
 * A house and out buildings were built for her and she lived out her life there. The house is known locally as "the Bethman Mansion". I was invited to tour the Bethman Mansion but was called to work at the mill. Friends who did attend the tour said there was a full set of white house china on display.


 * The cover story around town was that Minor was the son of Fredas' sister who lived in town. When Minor died (early 1950s) the newspaper wrote that minor was the sisters son.


 * I have never run across further information since, I hope the story can be expanded by someone with more info.


 * I ran google searches on "Kamiah Bethman", "Freda Bethman", and "Minor Bethman" (and variants thereof). Nothing.  I also checked books.google.com and scholar.google.com.  Again, nothing.  John Broughton 18:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * No that does not qualify as good enough for Wiki. A teenager 50 years ago hears this rumor from an unknown 3rd party that this fellow has a White House connection of some sort. Well, lots of maids got pregnant in those days, and maybe some in the White House, but how our teenage informant verified that Cleveland was involved is not stated. In fact the story degrades Wiki's reputation for high quality sources. Isn't it odd that in 50 years no newspaper has picked up this "news"? Rjensen 19:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Grandson still alive?
George Cleveland, the President's grandson and a New Hampshire social worker and broadcaster, is now a Grover Cleveland re-enactor.

Is his grandson still alive? (Alphaboi867 04:42, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC))

Yes, It appears that he lives in New Hampshire.

22nd and 24th President?
It is impossible for one person to be two presidents of the same country. Grover Cleveland was, in fact, the 22nd president of the United States, but was most certainly not the 24th as well. Perhaps a hypothetical situation would elucidate the matter. Let us suppose that Mr. A is the first to climb Mountain X. Immediately after, Mr. B climbs the same mountain. Now, if Mr. A were to climb the mountain again, would he become the third person to have climbed Mountain X (despite that fact that only two people have ever done so)? Certainly not. The ordinal numbers should therefore be associated with the United States presidents thus: Chester A. Arthur--21st, Grover Cleveland--22nd, Benjamin Harrison--23rd, William McKinley--24th. To clarify matters even further, I present this truism: if there were 23 men who were president before President McKinley, then McKinley is the 24th president. The pages for President Cleveland and all subsequent United States presidents should be renumbered.
 * I was under the impression that historians classified Cleveland as both the 22nd and 24th president in order to avoid just this sort of confusion.
 * The person contending who that Cleveland is not 22nd and 24th should confine this to this talk page and not start renumbering all the Presidents as they did at George W. Bush. Wikipedia is not in the business of redefining the way Presidential numbering is universally understood. If Washington had lived to become President again after Jefferson, we would have been the first president and also the third president. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 19:36, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Often what is widely accepted is wrong. It defies logic to call one man two presidents of the same country. The fact that this is the widely accepted numbering system does not warrant an adherence to it, but rather an acknowledgement of its existence. It would be helpful, therefore, to include a note about the erroneous, yet popular system of presidential enumeration. (Also, by the orthodox system, Washington would be both the first and fourth president, because Jefferson, by all accounts, served as the third.)
 * It may be illogical (though even there, I'm not sure), but it is the official numbering, not just the popular. And it would definitely be correct to say his was the 22nd and 24th presidencies.  It's just taht #22 and #24 were filled by the same individual Nik42 07:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh! So Cleveland was two presidencies? You do know how to think! I fully support the logical way.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Damifb (talk • contribs) 16:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It defies logic, but it is consensus. Wikipedia is not consistent. Live with it. Septentrionalis 14:12, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * While it is reasonable to count to separate presidencies named Cleveland (Cleveland 1st and Cleveland 2nd, similar could have been done for all US presidents that have been reelected), analogous to naming separate governments in Europe by the name of the prime minister (Bondevik I and Bondevik II, in Norway, where roman numerals are also used to distiguish between different kings with the same first name, not for dynasties of commonors with the same first name and family name, which is mostly a US peculiarity), the person himself or herself is only one. Wikipedia should not follow "offcial" US standard for mis-numbering, but rather help change such nonsense. All following presidents should be renumbered with a note attached explaining the official nonsense. The logic or literal aspect is very bad, and factually it is completely nonsense to count president Cleveland as two persons.
 * Regardless of what some people's opinions might be, Grover Cleveland has been officially numbered as the 22nd and 24th President almost since the day he was elected as such. I can't see changing nearly 120 years of customary usage just because some Wikipedian in 2006 disagrees with it.
 * Think of it this way: Cleveland fills the 22nd and 24th Presidencies. You would count George Washington's two consecutive terms as one presidency; Cleveland's non-consecutive terms require seperate everything. While, yes, the officially-created numerology of this is somewhat silly, it's Wikipedia's job to present such information, not change it. Scoutersig 17:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough, the Japanese count their Prime Ministers in such a manner that even if a Prime Minister serves the multiple terms consecutively, he gets counted multiple times. One example is Hayato Ikeda, who is counted as the 58th, 59th, and 60th Prime Minister of Japan! If America used the Japanese numbering system, George Washington would be counted as the 1st and 2nd President, John Adams would be the 3rd President, Thomas Jefferson would be the 4th and 5th President, etc. Not so sure how the Japanese would count the Presidents from John Tyler onwards, though. Proud Ho (talk) 07:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the notion that the numbering system is a matter of fact that has been decided outside the realm of Wikipedia. In fact, all the other paper encyclopedias have been using this numbering system way before Wikipedia was ever founded.  Interestingly enough, when it comes to numbering the Prime Minister of Israel, the more "logical" method is used. :)  I hope this helps. WatchingYouLikeAHawk 01:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Grover Cleveland is also going to be the 56th president because a couple of guys from the future grabbed him for a couple of months and will get him elected again, then return him back to his own time to become the 22nd president. So that means he becomes the 56th president before he became the 22nd president. Try to wrap your mind around that one! DavidPesta (talk) 01:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Presidential term
Many of the paragraphs here are directly lifted off of the white house biography of this president without attribution. Last time I checked, plagiarism wasn't part of the "high standard" of wikipedia.

Pmanderson reverted my correction to the presidential terms of Cleveland, commenting, "rv to WhoBot; both corrections misguided. For the start of term compare David Rice Atchison".

I presume that what Pmanderson is referring to is a comment in that article that "While the terms of James K. Polk and Vice President George Mifflin Dallas expired at noon on March 4, Atchison's tenure as President Pro Tempore did as well." Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. There are three references given in the Atchison article: one doesn't refer to the end of term at all, snopes refers to the end of term as midnight, and the the Senate historical page refers to it as ending at noon. (The Senate page is clearly the source of the noon timing here.) One might think that the Senate page would be controlling; it is, after all, an official government page. However, it's also contradicted by the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, which uniformly sets the end of Congressional and Presidential terms at March 3 prior to the 20th Amendment. Moreover, while the 20th Amendment specifically gives noon as the start of the Congressional and Presidential terms, the ordinance of the Congress of the Confederation that set the time for the start of operations under the Constitution omitted any reference to time of day. (See 34 Journals of the Continental Congress 253.) Legally, when something takes effect on a given date, and a time of day is not specified, it takes effect at midnight.

Therefore, I will be restoring my changing, and I will be correcting the Atchison article as well.

— DLJessup (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to have missed this for so long; this is pure conjecture, and inconsistent with the wording of the Constitution, since Washington was not inaugurated at midnight. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, this is irresponible. Septentrionalis 00:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * DLJessup is still wrong; for actual evidence on this point, see Talk:Herbert Hoover. This discussion indicates clearly that this is original research on his part, resulting from his private reading of primary sources, and opposed to several cited secondary sources. Septentrionalis 20:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Alot of this article can also be found directly on the white house website, at http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/gc2224.html. Now i dont fully understand american copyright laws, so this may be public domain as it is created by the Federal Government, but this makes me feel iffy about about this article, this needs to be looked into.


 * Any documents published by the government qualify as fair use. Also, in the future, please sign your comments by typing ~ . Firestorm 18:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's legal to copy government documents, but it does not enhance Wiki's reputation. Rjensen 23:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Missing word in trivia section
"George Cleveland, the president's grandson and a New Hampshire is now an impersonator and historical reenactor of his famous grandfather."
 * There is a word missing after New Hampshire - I don't know what it is meant to be, so I have commented out part of that sentence so it reads "George Cleveland, the president's grandson is now an impersonator and historical reenactor of his famous grandfather."
 * It wouldn't suprise me if the missing word is somewhere in the history but as I'm off to bed, and the wiki is running slowly I haven't got time to hunt for it now. Thryduulf 00:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Possibly questionable trivia claim
"Of the presidents who followed Abraham Lincoln to William McKinley, Cleveland was the only one who had not served in the Civil War" – Andrew Johnson was a military governor; does that count as service? Biruitorul 08:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Father
The article says Cleveland's fathre was a 'Catholic priest'. What kind of Catholic would this be? Hmains 07:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I understood that Grover was the son of a Presbyterian minister.

A nasty streak in Uncle Jumbo?
With reference to the section that reads:

Vetoing a bill to appropriate $10,000 to distribute seed grain among drought-stricken farmers in Texas, he wrote: "Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character...."

This could well be interpreted as downright hard-heartedness on Cleveland's part. At least some of his contemporaries must have felt this way. His pejorative nickname, "The Beast of Buffalo" may have been influenced not only by his persistent vetoing of bills, but also by his rather brutal attitude toward citizens in need.

Should this be touched on in the text of the article? Or is it too judgemental for an encylopedia?

Also:

It has been suggested that Cleveland's history as a "draft-dodger" in the Civil War might well have returned to haunt him in 1884, except that his opponent, Blaine, had also hired a substitute when called up. On the other hand, his later opponent, Benjamin Harrison, had a good war record as commander of a regiment and I am not aware of either of his two election campaigns against Cleveland attempting to make use of the issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flonto (talk • contribs) 17:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Civil War Service
"Of the presidents who followed Abraham Lincoln to William McKinley, Cleveland was the only one who had not served in the Civil War" – Andrew Johnson was a military governor; does that count as service? Biruitorul 08:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Andrew Johnson's role of military Governor of Tennessee carried with it the rank of major-general in the United States Volunteer Service, although this rank could arguably be described as honorary. Chester Arthur was Quartermaster-General for the State of Vermont with the rank of brigadier-general.

Both of these men held military rank for what were essentially non-military posts: but they both worked for the state in direct furtherance of the war effort. The word "served" is therefore appropriate up to a point.

Cleveland, on the other hand, remained a private citizen with no direct role in the war effort throughout the Civil War. This makes him the only president between the end of the War and the accession of Theodore Roosevelt who performed no Civil War service of any kind.

But Biruitorul is quite right to point out that Andrew Johnson was a politician and never a soldier.

Flonto 18:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Sarcoma or Carcinoma
I have found other sources stating that Cleveland had Sarcoma. What is the source of the Carcinoma diagnosis, please?

Highly controversial?
Seems POV pushing to label the Morgan Report as highly controversial, but to not label the Blount Report in the same manner. --JereKrischel 20:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I tried to make that point, but I got tired of arguing with ideologues. Coemgenus 10:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Isolationism is Non-intervention and Protectionism
Just a minor change in the Foreign Policy section. From what I read in the article, I got the impression that Cleveland was opposed to protectionism and high tariffs, so I changed the term 'Isolationist' to 'non-interventionist'.

75.45.191.64 (talk) 20:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Mother's name
Cleveland mother's name was changed from Anne to Ann. Is there a source that says her name is spelled Ann? I found one reference that says it is spelled Anne. Jons63 (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevins, p.9, has "Ann", as does Graff, p.3 and Jeffers, p.16. Coemgenus 13:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK Thanks Jons63 (talk) 13:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Was Grover Cleveland the only president involve in a May-December marriage?
Stephen Grover Cleveland married Frances Folsom Cleveland in 1895 despite Frances Folsom being 9 years under the age requirement of the First Lady (30)(though she would still reach that age in 1894 during Cleveland's second term) and the 27 years age difference. Was he the only president ever involved in a May December marriage or is there another President involve it those kings of relationships? I remember finding out that another President has been in a May December marriage, but I can't find out his name. Jim856796 (talk) 02:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no age requirement for First Lady. It's not even a real job, it's just what people call the President's wife.  As to your other question: I think John Tyler had a young wife, too.  Coemgenus 02:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Had to Happen..
Since Grover Cleveland pops up twice, this'll be kinda hard to fix, but.. I notice that the article states that he is preceded by Benjamin Harrison. This is incorrect; he is preceded by Chester Arthur, then succeeded by Benjamin Harrison. Shouldn't there be at least some mention of Chester Arthur inside the information box? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryuugaki (talk • contribs) 03:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently the policy is to list the most recent office first. So, if you look just below his second term in the infobox, there's his first, with Chester Arthur as predecessor.  Coemgenus 10:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * wow was this confusing. I looped and looped a couple times and came to the discussion page to see if anyone had said anything. So is this considered the "fix" for this "problem"? burnunit (talk) 22:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

--207.197.112.200 (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)cheyenne--207.197.112.200 (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Should we clarify to "American President"?
Regarding this minor disagreement... I agree that the addition of "American" is unnecessary. I don't think it's ambiguous at all without it, and while readability might not suffer much, it's superfluous. Any other opinions? Tan  &#124;   39  22:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's superfluous, and it hurts readability by making the sentence unnecessarily verbose. Coemgenus 23:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism?
Is there a reason the word "Graff" is interspersed within the Family and Early Life section? Kelran24 (talk) 16:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They were footnotes that someone vandalized. Thanks for mentioning it -- apparently no one noticed it for several days.  Coemgenus 16:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)