Talk:Gruffydd

Merge
Gruffudd → Gruffydd – Per WP:REDUNDANTFORK & WP:COMMONNAME.

These aren't "forms" of each other like "Griffith" is. There is no distinction between these two as commonly used: they are arbitrarily employed to discuss the same person. My Google for "Gruffydd ap Llywelyn" -wikipedia returns the very first result (from www.royal.gov.uk no less) "Gruffuth ap Llywelyn", the first sentence of which is "Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was..."

Gruffudd has apparently been making a comeback since 2004, but has less of a track record and is currently 5:1 less common even at Google Books. Not that this is probative, but major Welsh figures of the supposed "Gruffudd" period are consistently* spelt Gruffydd here.

The lists and pages should definitely be merged. Unless there are good reasons to expect the shift to Gruffudd is important and continuing (and not the result of a soccer player or something), it should merge here. — Llywelyn II   12:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Support a merge as proposed, particularly since the two spellings are used interchangeably for the same people. —  AjaxSmack   20:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - We should look at the best English-language sources available. The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales uses both Gruffudd and Gruffydd. Their entries are: Gruffudd ab yr Ynad Coch; Gruffudd ap Cynan; Gruffudd ap Gwenwynwyn; Gruffudd ap Llywelyn; Gruffudd ap Llywelyn ap Iorwerth; Gruffudd ap Nicolas; Gruffudd ap Rhys ap Gruffudd; Gruffudd ap Rhys ap Tewdwr; Gruffudd Hiraethog; Gruffudd Llwyd (Sir Gruffudd ap Rhys); Gruffydd, Elis; and Gruffydd, W[illiam] J[ohn].
 * Wales' foremost modern historian, John Davies, also uses both forms. The index of A History of Wales lists 19 entries for Gruffudd (including Gruffudd, Ioan) and three entries for Gruffydd.
 * The National Library of Wales has 1,313 entries for Gruffudd and 3,975 entries for Gruffydd. Although this is not quite as useful, as the search facility will include author names, duplicates and Welsh-language entries, it confirms both forms are used.
 * As LlywelynII says above, we could all find examples of both forms being used (e.g. S4C's series Twysogion uses Gruffudd ap Cynan and Gruffudd ap Llywelyn and the Gruffydd form too), so if we are after some consistency, which seems to be the purpose of this proposal, I suggest we follow the names used by the Welsh Academy in their Encyclopaedia of Wales, and the spelling of whichever sources are used for other articles. Perhaps this should be advertised at Wikiproject Wales, to gain further input. Daicaregos (talk) 10:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't dream of disputing any of this. I don't deny that both forms are used concurrently and, Certainly, specialist works would note both forms.  However, Wikipedia, with its general readership and its very limited content on the subject might do better to combine these stubs into one article considering the overlap. —  AjaxSmack   20:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Footnote
* Or were from 2003 to June 2012. "Gruffudd ap Cynan" (but only GaC) seems more popular on Google now; "Gruffydd ap Llywelyn" (who preceded him) is still more common... Is there just one book on GaC everyone is copying on this? — Llywelyn II   12:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It actually proves my point about these two pages, though. The son of Cynan is listed on Gruffydd and not at Gruffudd. It's an unhelpful, misleading fork. — Llywelyn II   13:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Second merge discussion
Please see Talk:Gruffudd. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)