Talk:Guantanamera

Untitled
Since the three versions that have been listed are all basically the same it's pointless to have them all. I'm sure Julio and Juilan sing them very differently, but since we can't hear them here it does us no good to compare them. The entire original poem without comments or translation would belong in wikisource, if anywhere, and under its correct name, not Guantanamra, which is based on it. Likewise it is useless for an English encyclopedia to have this much untranslated Spanish. So I'm deleting the redundancies, again. -R. fiend 22:03, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * gratuitous anality and self-appointed hairsplitters impede the wondrous superfluity, redundancy, and quirkiness that gives wikipedia its charm and value, and distinguishes it from the bland corporate alternatives like Britannica and Encarta, IMHO

--Ggaltman (talk) 15:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)== Guajira Guantanamera ==

Guantanamera means a girl from Guantanamo.

What does "guajira" mean? It was excluded from the translation for some reason... Thanks! --AC. "Guaira" is derived from the English "war hero". During the revolution many of the combatants were farmers, hence the colloquial "war hero". - GGA


 * evidently, in French, it means ma ville, HTH

Guajira is a colloquial term used in Cuba for a country girl.

Correct. The song/poem is addressed to the girl the "country girl from Guantanamo." I think this should be in there to put the song in context. Murcielago 22:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Guajira is also the style of music.&mdash; Ba ss B o n e ( my talk  ·  my contributions ) 02:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See my comment about this ambiguity in the text of the article. Demf 18:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

=
===================================================== I am forced to write this because I needed to quickly print out information regarding this subject for my Spanish class (I am a college teacher) and found the content of this article totally inadequate, so I had to do it myself.

The writers of this article have either not bothered to do their research regarding the origins of this song or have just plainly made it all up off the top of their heads. Regardless of who the writers are, please take the time to seek out the facts in your libraries or on the internet the meaning of "guajira guantanamera" and you will find out much of this article will have to be deleted and completely re-written, for the sake of maintaining the integrity of Wikipedia.

First, "guajira" (or "guajiro", in the case of a man) are words of Caribe (native American tribe) origin from northern Colombia. The Colombian province located in the northeast coast bordering Venezuela is to this day called "Departamento de La Guajira". In Cuba, guajira and guajiro are used as nicknames for rural or country folk, just as "hillbilly" is used in the U.S.

As Cuban musical history developed, there developed a FORM of traditional country music called a "guajira", also known in Cuban popular culture as a "decima", referring to the traditional Spanish ten-line poem used to frame the Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj musical chord struture it employs, and the structure ABAB. A "Guajira" is sung folk music, and can be played alone or in groups of unlimited number, and to this day the decimas are often improvised. This form of music is quite alive in Cuba and in Miami to this day, and is a popular pastime in both the country and in cities. Men and women challenge each other to see who could come up with on-the-spot poetic improvisation.

As someone wrote later on in this article, Guantanamera similar in structure to the Mexican song "La Bamba", which structurally speaking is a traditional guajira. La Bamba is a traditional folk song from Yucatan, closer to Cuba than to to Mexico City. Another more recent example of that musical structure is "Twist and Shout" by the Isley Brothers, later covered by the Beatles.

"Guantanamera" composer Joseito Fernandez clearly wrote the song to have a double meaning, referring both a woman, and as an anthem to the music genre, which by the time he composed "Guantanamera" in 1930 was already an ancient form of music.

Look up this link on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqC-dcpZIOU, and you will see Joseito Fernandez HIMSELF singing about the origins of the guajira and the decima. Continue to explore You Tube using the search phrase "Decima Cubana" and you will feast your eyes and ears with various videos of Cubans playing their venerable country music.

I would be happy to insert all this information in the article, but I cannot do it due to an immense lack of time, so please, someone, do the research and clean it up? Thanks. Marco Medrano, Professor of Spanish and History, Miami Dade College, Miami, Florida. 65.3.252.99 (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

But really the lyrics are from Versos Sencillos" by José Martí and this poem was already famous long before the song. Gingermint (talk) 06:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

=
===================================================== Hi I have just came back from a holiday in Cuba and the guide said it was the Cuban interpretation of the English words 'war hero'. She said it was Cuba's contribution to first spanish, then through the song, international dictionaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.108.156.216 (talk) 00:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Which shows the extent to which guides make things up ! -- Beardo (talk) 21:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Patriotic, but political?
Is this song most often invoked by supporters of the current government, or the opposition (in Cuba and abroad), or equally by both, or neither? Basically, my question is, does this song have any particular political association today, or is it just generally patriotic? (I realize that Marxism is against patriotism, but as far as I known Castro has not espoused that particular element of Marxism)

I suspect it is like Marti himself - espoused by both. Though I am not sure it is seen as especially patriotic in Cuba. -- Beardo 05:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

My Spanish teacher told me that it was used by supporters of Castro to compare the glorious life lived by those wealthy enough to live in Guantanamo to the life of the impoverished, but the lyrics don't exactly make sense with that interpretation. However, the song Guantanamera is absolutely a song of Castro's supporters, not the opposition.Emmett5 04:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Celia Cruz a Castro supporter ? Nana Mouskouri ?  Julio Iglesias ? Could there be different lyrics to the same tune ? -- Beardo 05:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Naaaah, the Guantanamera is as popular and as flexible in Cuba (and elsewhere) as La Bamba is in Veracruz, Mexico and elsewhere. It is so simple in its musical structure that any set of 4-verse octosyllabic lyrics in Spanish can be adapted to it. Pro- as well as anti-Castro. It has become a universal song. Demf 05:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks - and thanks for your recent additions. It would be great if you could add a few references, as that is something this article is lacking at the moment.  -- Beardo 13:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Traditional folk music everywhere is open to all human themes often used to convey a social or political message.  Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez and others have used American folk music to convey social or political statements. Same thing can be done to Cuban music or any other music.  Medrano, Spanish and History Professor, MDC, Miami, Florida. 65.3.252.99 (talk) 15:25, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I can say with absolute confidence that this song is general enough to not be tied to whether or not you are pro- or anti-Castro. That notion to me even sounds ridiculous. We sing this song in Miami for fun at parties and you can bet our community is anti-Castro. I have immediate Cuban family and can say from experiences growing up and experiences today. ~  digx  t·c 19:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Lyrics
We can't post the lyrics in the article, since the song is presumably still copyrighted. — BrianSmithson 09:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is it ? Marti died 111 years ago - so his verses aren't, surely ? -- Beardo 11:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Idunno. The article says it was written in 1929, which is copyright territory. If there are older verses, I guess they would be okay. — BrianSmithson 16:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course - those versions were in Spanish. I am not sure about the copyright status of the English translastion that we were using. -- Beardo 19:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If they were translations, they would be derivative works, which are also not allowed (unfortunately). All that said, I Am Not a Lawyer. :) — BrianSmithson 22:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The words are a 19th century Jose Marti poem. How can they be copywrited?--Zleitzen 00:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The first and third verses are Marti http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/46409-Jose-Marti-A-Sincere-Man-Am-I---Verse-I- and http://www.wosib.org/translators/poems/poem3.htm, the chorus isn't - but once would surely be fair use. The other two verses ? And is the process of picking a couple of bits of Marti a copyright-able process ? -- Beardo 01:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC) (PS must split the film off from this).
 * That makes sense; the chorus is okay fair use. I'd be careful about the other verses, though. -- BrianSmithson 01:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There's Simple Verse V - http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Versos_sencillos_%28J._Mart%C3%AD%29:_V. and III http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Versos_sencillos_%28J._Mart%C3%AD%29:_III So i) is the process of picking out four verses copyrightable and ii) what translations are we using ? -- Beardo 02:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to include the stanzas from Versos Sencillos from which Orbon's adaptation is derived. I am holding in my hand a copy of that book, which indicates the original Spanish is in the public domain (it was published in the US in 1891)—it is the particular English translation which is copyrighted. I am 99.9% sure that Orbon's derivitive work is copyrighted, but I think if we just use the original Spanish text, and state explicitly where it comes from, then it will be OK. As long as we attribute that particular selection of verses to its creator, I don't think it will be a copyright violation; we would just be pointing out where the lyrics originally came from. This is done very nicely in the Turn! Turn! Turn! article, which reproduces some verses from Ecclesiastes, from which that song is derived. What do you think? I know the lyrics were included in this article back in 2006 and were subsequently removed. Maybe we can get another opinion from an admin if there's a question about it? Cheers. Braincricket (talk) 01:40, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Non sequitur
Ok, folks, what am I missing here?


 * "she did have a romantic interest in him, but merely a platonic one"

Isn't this, like, an impossibility? 216.199.161.66 20:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Has a "not" gone walkies ? -- Beardo 08:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Many people think there is such a thing as a "platonic romance", with "platonic" meaning "non-sexual"; that's a widely used term. I read the article as saying that she liked him but didn't want to have sex with him. 216.59.230.140 16:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A lyrical complaint about a coquette seems about right for a macho Latino nation. Knock the "not" & risk losing the plot.

merge
Please note : There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs/coverversions with the purpose of trying to establish a standard rule for merge/separate different versions of the same song. Please make known your feelings on the matter. --Richhoncho (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Carmín
Carmín would most correctly translate as Carmine. Crimson is more poetic in English, but would be carmesí. They both ultimitely derive from the Persian word qirmez (red). - Parsa (talk) 08:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

"One-ton Tomato"
This song is the root inspiration for a common parody, namely, singing the chorus as "One-ton Tomato", followed by "I need a one-ton tomato" or "I eat/ate a one-ton tomato". Just wondering if this fact warrants an entry on the main article, or if that is too off-topic? RickSustek (talk) 01:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Did anybody publish a recording of this before Mike Nesmith played it on "Television Parts"? I vaguely recall hearing it 8-10 years earlier and associating it with Cheech & Chong. Not R (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

History section is incomprehensible
The two paragraphs both assume that a different person was the author of the song and they do not make clear at all which verses they apply to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.87.74 (talk) 12:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I considered editing the history section... but that would require real interpretation. It's hard to say what someone was trying to write. One would really have to research this (and the sources sited are not enough) and just re-write the whole history (and lyrics) section. 75.48.21.125 (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

José Martí
I changed the name of the section about the lyrics and moved the part about José Martí closer to the top. I also did something else (I moved a comma or something... a little fix of some sort). At any rate, Martí is important and should not be presented as an afterthought. 75.48.21.125 (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

"Versos Sencillos" by José Martí comprise the majority of the lyrics. Gingermint (talk) 06:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
I deleted what was, essentially, a big advertisement for one performer's version of the song, which went on about the album etc. This, by the way, was far from a famous version and its inclusion, let alone its spotlighting (and the amount of real-estate it took up on the page) was uncalled for.

I think, though, it would be nice to have a little more about this song and some more research should provide someone with some interesting information. The article is too short (it was a shame to edit out ANYTHING, but it had to be done). 75.48.21.125 (talk) 04:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone has re-introduced it with the inaccurate comment "re-added Wyclef Jean version - vandalised off". Does anyone else think it has any place here? Perhaps we should add full details of all the other cover versions? Pterre (talk) 10:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, I re-added because of the redirect Guantanamera (Wyclef Jean song) and WP:SONGCOVER. Somebody yesterday reverted back into an article, and I reverted back, then saw the redirect doesn't work anymore... Perhaps, I shouldn't have done it, but I had my eye and mind firmly on WP:SONGCOVER. I don't have any strong opinion what the final solution is, if it is removed again, perhaps you would kindly adjust the redirect, too. Thanks. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think that this cover should have the prominence that it has here, to the exclusion of other covers (similar discussions have taken place on other articles) - unless someone provides a good reason for keeping it, the template should be removed. It is already listed in the list of covers. Hohenloh + 04:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. I hesitated from removing it as it only seems to be recorded here - perhaps it could be moved to Wycliffe Jean or somewhere if anyone cares to save it? Pterre (talk) 10:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * According to WP:SONGCOVER, the only place the Jean version should be is at this article. Therefore moving to Wyclef Jean doesn't appear to be an option. Except for this, I still have no strong opinions how you guys deal with this. Richhoncho (talk) 12:27, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted it again, its glaringly irrelavent as originally posted, regardless of where else it may belong. For the benefit of Richhoncho, wrt WP:SONGCOVER the rendition is not obviously notable. Perhaps if you would point to a reputable source for it being discussed as important in the history of the song, that might clarify the need for inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.19.102.52 (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Cover versions
I feel compelled to write this after the addition of another artist to the Cover versions section by an anonymous editor, along with two external links. There are about 42 entries in the list now, which speaks to the universality and popularity of the song, but I think the section is in danger of becoming an indiscriminate list of information, especially now with the addition of external links to track listings. Two of the artists on the list don't have articles written about them. Here is something to consider: What is keeping me from adding this entry to the list:

==Cover versions==
 * Myself (recorded in my garage with my smart phone, with different lyrics) [external link to the youtube post]

The answer is: nothing. I propose drawing a line in the sand. I know we all have different musical tastes and our own opinions about which cover version is the most important (Pete Seeger, obviously ;-)), so I think it should be a very generous line. How about this for a criteria for inclusion: the artist must have their own article. At least then we'd know the artist was probably notable, and we could remove two people from the list, and one external link. I also note the tag in the section—how do we address that? Thoughts? Braincricket (talk) 01:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Lots of music-related articles have this problem. I agree that the artist should be notable, and doesn't deserve inclusion if they do not have their own article. Also, if the cover is not mentioned on the artist's article, perhaps it could be removed. If the lyrics have been changed, it's a different song (IMHO), so shouldn't be included here. Hohenloh + 13:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Football chant.
It is common to use the tune for a chant at British football matches, for example "One David Beckham,there's only one David Beckham,one Dav...id Beckham,there's only one David Beckham!" other names may,of course, be used such as team names,"Man. United" for example.94.197.145.205 (talk) 16:14, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Sandpipers Version
Regardless of who originally recorded this song, I think The Sandpipers' version deserves more of a mention than just listing the group under "Cover Versions", as their version is arguably one of the most well-known, and it was one of their biggest hits as well. Oldiesmann (talk) 20:34, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Done.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Pete Seeger - The Sandpipers
To avoid any confusion (including mine) The Sandpiper section should distinguish between the writing of the song for use during the Cuban Missile Crisis (Oct.1962) and the 1966 release by the Sandpipers.

Does anyone know when Seeger first wrote it - the following suggests early 1960's http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4154 This started out as a poem written in 1899 by Cuban writer Jose Marti. The poem is about a girl from Guantanamo and was written from the point of view of a Cuban revolutionary. In the early 1960s Pete Seeger heard Hector Angulo singing a Cuban folk song using Marti's words based on a traditional melody adapted by bandleader Joseito Fernandez. This was the time of the Cuban missile crisis and the peace activist Seeger decided to adapt it in honor of Marti. He combined Marti's original Spanish with spoken English and made it into a song for the peace movement. Huon03 (talk) 09:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You're quite right, and I've attempted to do what you suggest. Songfacts isn't a great source, but I've found others.  It amazes me that Seeger's 1963 live album doesn't (yet) have its own article.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:40, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank-you. I don't know the facts, but I like your re-wording. Huon03 (talk) 08:34, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Quoting the reference to Pete Seeger's Carnegie Hall recording as "definitive" is misleading; in context, it's the definitive recording of his version, but to suggest that an American folk singer created the definitive version of a Cuban anthem is a bit ridiculous. ElrondPA (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The full sentence in the Allmusic article is: "Seeger does right things with an impassioned performance of Dylan's "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall," however, and the second half of the concert, climaxing in the definitive version of "Guantanamera," is protest folk at its finest." It certainly may well be the case that the writer is talking about the English language versions that he knows (i.e. that Seeger's version is more "definitive" than the Sandpipers' version, for example).  But, we can't assume that.  Seeger's version, popularising the song, needs to be given a high degree of prominence - looking at his discography here it seems that the Carnegie Hall concert was the first time he recorded the song, so a review of that album mentioning the song is worth mentioning in the article, in my view.Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * My Spanish is very limited, but the Spanish language version of this article seems to credit Seeger with internationalizing the popularity of the song. I'm not saying that it's wrong to recognize Seeger or the Carnegie Hall recording, just that calling it the "definitive version" of the song seems wildly inappropriate. Seeger's version is much more American folk than Latin. The fact that a music critic said that doesn't mean it's a justifiable statement to put here, at least without more qualification. ElrondPA (talk) 16:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * We are quoting a review, in a reliable source, that states it to be "the definitive version". Whether we, as editors, agree or disagree with that judgement isn't really relevant.  If there are other reliable sources giving a different view of Seeger's version, or setting out another opinion on what the "definitive version" is, we should include them as well.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Authorship and trial
I think there needs to be a bit more material about the authorship question and the trial. What information do we have, really? How reliable are the Cuban courts? What evidence and narrative did both parties offer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 (talk) 02:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

External Links Malware
The external link to the actual poem at the very bottom (on exilio dot com?) brings up a MALWARE warning in Google Chrome saying your computer is very likely to get infected visiting the site. Perhaps another site should be found with the full poem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.58.26.98 (talk) 22:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Definition of "guajira Guantanamera"
In another thread in Talk, someone defined it as a country girl. And yes that is one definition; or peasant woman. And yet, this was never added to the article although the words guajira Guantanamera occur frequently in the song. i.e. Guantanamera, guajira Guantanamera

I have now added the definition with three citations to confirm the meaning. Peter K Burian (talk) 02:15, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. Community Tech bot (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
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Meaning of the title
Spanish: "from Guantánamo, feminine" indicating a woman from Guantánamo.
 * ...or, a song of Guantánamo, like Marseillaise. Given the amount of debate over the origins of the song, I think this should be considered. Valetude (talk) 00:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)