Talk:Guerrillero Heroico/Archive 1

Image removal
I am about to delete the Wikipedia copy of the poster image from Image:Cheicon.jpg. It has been listed on Possibly unfree images and tagged for deletion for over 30 days. Additional circumstances which I took into consideration were that from my research the image is apparently copyrighted and the copyright holder has sued over unauthorized reproduction. The copyright holder's statement about being "not averse to its reproduction" under specific stated circumstances may make a version of this image a candidate for fair use in some specific contexts (I am not judging that question), but certainly does not qualify as used by permission in for example the our "beret" article, one of the places the image was previously used. I am copying below the rather long image page discussion here for reference. -- Infrogmation 17:54, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Text from Image talk:Cheicon.jpg
I'm sorry J.J. but do you know they were serious issues about this image copyrights ? Make a search on Google about Alberto Korda. Ericd 23:05 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

Copyright
The guy was a lifelong communist, though, and only wanted to cut down on blatant commercialization of the image, telling reporters:

As a supporter of the ideals for which Che Guevara died, I am not averse to its reproduction by those who wish to propagate his memory and the cause of social justice throughout the world.

So it's used with permission.

That does not follow. Wikipedia does not have policies of propagating the memory of Che, or of propagating social justice. There may be a fair use justification for using the image in some articles: Che Guevara (photo), for example. But this is not a by permission image. Incidentally, the case referenced establishes that the photographer has asserted copyright, but it does not establish that his assertion is legally founded; the case was settled before a court decision. Markalexander100 08:57, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does not have policies of propagating the memory of Che, or of propagating social justice.


 * But :


 * The article about Guevara propagate the memory of Che,


 * A Free Encyclopedia is a contribution to the cause of social justice throughout the world.


 * Ericd 17:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, no. Propagating implies promoting; an article which said "Che's a bastard" would not be propagating his memory. A Free Encyclopedia is a contribution to the cause of social justice throughout the world? Again, no. It could be for or against social justice. Wikipedia, as it happens, is neither. Markalexander100 00:51, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Very odd semantics. Since he would probably argue that an objective, NPOV depiction of Che, in and of itself, forwards social justice (thus worthy such a reporduction). Intentionality is not relevant to contribution. El_C 08:45, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, I think we qualify.
The Che article is obviously designed to let people know about Che-thus, we fulfil the "propagating his memory" requirement. Also, an encyclopaedia that's free for anyone to use and edit and has a NPOV policy is hardly a champion cause of social injustice.

Not the Korda image
This is a red and black impression of the Jim Fitzpatrick image, which was based on the Korda photograph (see discussion at Che_Guevara_%28photo%29). Fitzpatrick renounced copyright on his graphic and any derived works, as described on his website. Whether it's a derivative work of Korda's photo (and thus Fitzpatrick never had the copyright in the first place) is one for the lawyers (but I doubt it - the image is universal at this point, which was Fitzpatrick's intention as well as Korda's). In any event, it can be safely surmised that Korda wanted his image to be used in any fair, noncommercial discussion of Che. He didn't use the term "NPOV" but probably wouldn't disagree with it. ;)


 * the image is universal at this point I don't know what that means, but I don't think it has any legal significance. Mark1 06:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * It means that the image is used by all and sundry, as the artist intended. I have a t-shirt from Cuba with a glow-in-the-dark representation of it. ;) This may or may not change the legal standing of our use of the art (in a US jurisdiction probably not, though there it would probably have been fair use anyway), but again, it's a moot point; this is Fitzpatrick's image and he's expressed the wish that it be freely reproduced. From the artist's site:


 * "It's an odd world." says the artist, "The Che Guevara poster became a worldwide phenomena and caused outrage everywhere it appeared. Because the various posters of Che I produced were based on a photograph by a then unknown Cuban photographer plus the fact that I had met him (see Biography section ), idolised him and of course wanted to make sure he was never forgotten I made all the Guevara images copyright free. That's how it spread everywhere so quickly.

toh 22:31, 2004 Nov 18 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere (I think in the French magazine Le Point) that Korda's widow was engaging a new lawsuit for this photo and this time asking for a lot of money....
 * Ericd 16:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From image page
Che Guevara icon.

This is a photo portrait taken by the Cuban photographer Alberto Korda and printed with strong contrast. The star on Che's hat and his eyes have also been edited from the original version. Cuba didn't sign the Berne convention thus the copyright status is unclear.

Uncropped source photo: Image:Che.jpg.

Korda successfully claimed copyright in 2000 to prevent it being used in a Vodka ad. Korda was a lifelong communist, though, and only wanted to cut down on the commercialization of the image, telling reporters:

"As a supporter of the ideals for which Che Guevara died, I am not averse to its reproduction by those who wish to propagate his memory and the cause of social justice throughout the world."

See http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/09/16/cheguevaraphoto.ap/.

noncommercial

--69.108.1.58 07:14, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)LOL--69.108.1.58 07:14, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC) nonfreedelete 85.210.62.148 21:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

With reference to Cuba not being a signatory to the Berne Convention you appear to be misinformed. They signed up in Paris, France on February 20, 1997. See http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/Remarks.jsp?cnty_id=936C Prior to that Cuba signed up to the Universal Copyright Convention (UCC) in Geneva in 1957 so the copyright status can hardly be unclear. -- Chris 09-Oct-2005 22:51

Guerrillero Heróico
I was searching on Google and I found that the photo is called Guerrillero Heróico (direct translation: "Heroic Guerrilla Fighter"). I think that the article's title should be Guerrillero Heróico and not Che Guevara (photo); or at least have a mention of it in the article. --201.222.233.28 06:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The irony of marketing the image
I was wondering, would it be appropriate to include how it is ironic that this image is today capitalised upon when Che died fighting for Marxist ideals? Every day, I see it as a symbol on shirts that people who could care less who he was or what he represented think it makes them cool to wear. Thunk 08:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Murdered over Killed
I replaced the sentence "murdered by the CIA" with the much less NPOV "executed by Bolivian soldiers" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.189.178.102 (talk) 01:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Just Cause
It is almost insulting that they say that the video game character immitate's Che's life. The video game has a CIA backed-fighter seeking out a "dictator" with "WMDs". Che was killed by CIA backed Latin American soldiers. It is very offensive the way they have it phrased here.

Yes, certainly, only the image on the front is based on Che. The game itself seems to oppose anything Che may have argued or stood for.Kevin.doyle 15:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kevin.doyle

Warhol never painted Che Guevara.
I'm very new to Wikipedia, and I don't understand how to edit the pages. However, I wish to correct a huge error with regards to the alleged "Andy Warhol" image of Che Guevara. Professionally, I'm the archivist at The Andy Warhol Museum, and the curator of a current little exhibition there which adresses this very topic. The show is titled '"...trapped like a rat in Rome' The Che Guevara Episode." It's drawn entirely from Warhol's personal archives, and consists largely of correspondence to Warhol from his assistant, Gerard Malanga (the title is a quote from 1 of the letters). Malanga made 2 paintings (silkscreens on canvas) and about 20 or 30 "drawings" (silkscreens on paper) in late 1967, and sold them in Rome, mistakenly believing that he had Warhol's co-operation. Eventually, Warhol was forced to claim the works were his, but only to save his assistant from a jail sentence of possibly 15 years. It's a rather complicated story, but these works are currently not attributed to Warhol - they are not recognized by the Catalogue Raisonne of Warhol's work, a massive on-going project which is the official keeper of such records. The "Che Guevara" works are only a rather embarrassing chapter in Warhol's chaotic life. Not only this, but the "Warhol" Guevaras do not even use the brilliant heroic image discussed at such length in your pages - rather, Malanga chose the photo of Che that was made after he was killed; his body is laying prone on a gurney, and he's surrounded by military officers. A re-creation that I commissioned for the show - based on Malanga's own detailed description of the work, and a photo that appeared in a review of the show in a contemporary Italian newspaper - can be found at warholstars.org - search for Che in the News section, I believe.

Matt Wrbican Archivist The Andy Warhol Museum Pittsburgh wrbicanm@warhol.org

Che's "facial expression"
Someone has included in here a note that in the original photograph Che looks "worried" and that the Fitzpatrick took liberties with the position of the eyes to make Che look more heroic. I have a poster of the original photograph in my room and as I look at it I see the exact same position of eyes in each the poster on my wall and the Fitzpatrick image on my computer. Furthermore, in John Lee Anderson's biography of Che Guevara, he describes the picture of Che in a way that also disagrees with this author's summary. "In it, Che appears as the ultimate revolutionary icon, his eyes seeming to stare boldly into the future, his very face symbolizing a virile embodiment of outrage at social injustice" (page 465). Now I know that I sound like an overly enthusiastic fan of Che's, but honestly, when the two images are compared, they look the same and the most extensive biography of Che to date seems to agree with me. If this quotation and the arguments that go along with it are not included in the article (which isn't all that necessary, although the quotation is with merit), then at least don't include the opposing belief without anything to back it up with. I've provided a direct quotation; if no one else can disprove me, than please remove that paragraph. And, as an aside, the date was indeed March 5th according to Anderson, who spent years living in Cuba just to research Che's life. The explosion was March 4th and the funeral took place the day after, according to Anderson on pages 464 and 465.Kevin.doyle 15:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kevin.doyle

Guy on Left
Who's the guy on the left? The System 3000 22:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No idea, I wondered that as well. I imagine he is a Cuban government official, or perhaps cabinet member, or maybe a Havana organiser of some sort. Considering the photo was taken at a funeral seemingly attended by half of Cuba, it could be any one.-- Z leitzen (talk)  23:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know too! It's mentioned that korda photographed on the same film Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir but that guy definitely isn't them! -- 13:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Che in popular culture
In case you are unaware, there's a similar article Che Guevara in popular culture that really needs help to be brought up to the standard of Che Guevara (photo). Canuckle 21:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Korda's Second Picture
So Korda got off two shot of Che before he turned around and left. Anybody know if the second picture taken of Che at the funeral is available on the net (or anywhere)? Would be interesting to see an iconic subject seconds before or after they made photographic history. Sir Rhosis 22:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Most famous picture?
By what authority, I would like to know, does the Maryland Institute College of Art called Korda's photo, "The most famous photograph in the world"? How do they know?

What about the whole earth picture taken by the Apollo 17 crew, earthrise by the Apollo 8 crew, posed photo of Aldrin by Armstrong on the moon during Apollo 11, pictures of John Kennedy's assassination, LBJ being sworn in on the flight back to Washington DC, and on and on. I would like to know how this art institution calibrated its claim. Dubious stuff, top-of-the-head wild assertion. Prove me wrong.

ODea 00:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Why the most famous picture should be one from USA? All the examples given on this question are just from USA. I don't know what was the reason why they said this is the most famous picture in the world, but I see more people around the world walking down the street with t-shirts with this picture, than t-shirts with pictures of JFK assassination (a very sad moment by the way), a guy swearing or the fake Apollo pictures. Maybe that first picture taken of the complete planet could be, that one is very popular in environmental circles around the world. --Dendrotech 11:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Add the OiNK.cd version of the picture?
Hi, can someone add this picture to the "Popular Culture" box? Thanks.

http://z-a-p.deviantart.com/art/OiNK-Music-Revolution-1280-68565169

68.55.235.179 23:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Che.svg
Image:Che.svg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Miyamato parody?
For Christmas i got a video game T-shirt with Shigeru Miyamoto's face on it, in a similar fashion to that of the famous image of Che Guevara. should that be noted in the article?Ninjaspwnpirates (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cheicon.png
Image:Cheicon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 13:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)