Talk:Guggenheim Helsinki Plan

Administration law
Finnish administration law is described in the article fi:Hallintolaki. Since Pxos has removed the most of the article in 6. February 2012 you need to see the older versions of this article to discover the content of the law: e.g. and. Finlex gives the law:. The lack of independence is in 28 §. In the Guggenheim museum –plan at least the independence of Janne Gallen-Kallela-Sirén to make the evaluations of the plan was questioned. Is his independence in his position as the leader of the city museum evaluated based on this case? Please include if you have a reference to this. Watti Renew (talk) 10:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Ehrnroot and property
Altteri1 you removed the property of Carl-Gustaf Ehrnroot: “Ehrnrooths own a lot of things, no need for partly list here.”. Your point that the list is not complete is good. Instead of removing the data I would recommend you to add information.


 * “Carl-Gustaf Ehrnroot is with his brothers Georg Ehrnrooth and Henrik Ehrnrooth via Corbis S.A.also the biggest owner of the international company Pöyry (2012). Ehrnrooth family investment fund Structor is the biggest owner of the construction company YIT with share of 12.1 % in the end of January 2012.

In my opinion the property deserves to be mention since this plan includes at least a 100-200 million euros construction plan and Carl-Gustaf Ehrnroot is the major owners of the big construction company YIT. The list of property of Carl-Gustaf Ehrnroot and his family has in my opinion also importance in the evaluation of the independence of the people involved. In the case of politicians the evaluation should include their stock property, work positions of their family, and the received funds from the individuals and the Ehrnrooth family related companies. Watti Renew (talk) 10:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Added more.--Altteri1 (talk) 06:59, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Ehrnrooth family
I removed the story of Adolf Ehrnrooth and Leo Ehrnrooth since the relationship to Carl Gustaf Ehrnrooth was not given. Are they related at all? Watti Renew (talk) 14:34, 25 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Very good, they have nothing to do with Guggenheim Helsinki –Plan. I removed few other Ehrnrooths that also have nothing to do with the plan.--Altteri1 (talk) 19:09, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Other Museums and plans
User:Ryhanen 377 Guggenheim Museums running museums and museum plans not realised deserve in my opinion place in the article since the plan was prompted as a part of other Guggenheim museums. This list shows that the number of museums is less than advertised and many cities have rejected the proposal. neutral point of view (WP:NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. Watti Renew (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Future plans
Watti Renew (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
 * User: Altteri1 Guggenheim Helsinki –Plan was expensive, min €130 million investment plus annual running cost. It included the demand to cut costs from the other museums and exclude other opportunities. Meilahti Museum Helsinki City Art Museum, my favorite, will be closed on 10.June 2012 (HS 3.5.2012), for the renovation, I hope.
 * Now as I understand we have €130 million to renovate Meilahti Art Museum and build a new Museum of Ethnography, Finland in Meilahti like the Museum of Ethnography, Sweden which i recommend (in-english, utstallningar). It is in Djurgården that would equal Seurasaari area in Helsinki.
 * Free electric bus from Helsinki city to Seurasaari and Sibelius Monument, Helsinki City Art Museum, Museum of Ethnography, Finland, Didrichsen Art Museum, Villa Gyllenberg and Tamminiemi would serve both locals and tourists. Carl Gustaf Ehrnrooth is a member at least in the Foundation of the Didrichsen Art Museum which deserves advertisement. The Museum of Ethnography close to the Didrichsen would give extra value, since Didrichsen has as well ancient art collection.
 * Moved chapter of plans for Katajanokka deserves in my opinion place in the article since it revealed the town planning opportunity. In my opinion the town should be planned before construction proposals. How many Garden Plans have you seen among massive construction proposals in the architect competititions? None. The architect competitions have the problem of excluding the other opportunities. Now is running the library building plan with no options to situate the library in the Post House (Helsinki), old Helsingin Sanomat building Ludwiginkatu near Erottaja, Makkaratalo, Tennispalatsi or Lasipalatsi. In my opinion in the centre is needed more free space, parks and less traffic. Opportunity to more free space is competitive advantage of Finland compared to many other European countries. I included the ref to support the plan. Katajanokka has less parks than in the Helsinki districts average. Many arguments support a park alternative that could be now fixed in the town planning : It would decrease flooding, light and air pollution and traffic noice in the market place and coast line. I find myself innovative and finding new perspectives. However, since the most ideas have been proposed many times earlier, more refs are likely to be found, if needed, easily with time.


 * This (your talk here) is the thing called Spam (electronic). Altteri1 (talk) 17:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not agree, since this does not link in any spam site and the addition is linked to the article content. You need better arguments, otherwise it should in my opinion be returned. Definition of spam does not fit here. Spam (electronic): Wiki spam is a form of link spam on wiki pages. The spammer uses the open editability of wiki systems to place links from the wiki site to the spam site. The subject of the spam site is often unrelated to the wiki page where the link is added. In early 2005, Wikipedia implemented a default "nofollow" value for the "rel" HTML attribute. Links with this attribute are ignored by Google's PageRank algorithm. Forum and Wiki admins can use these to discourage Wiki spam. Watti Renew (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * "While the most widely recognized form of spam is e-mail spam, the term is applied to similar abuses in other media: instant messaging spam, Usenet newsgroup spam, Web search engine spam, spam in blogs, wiki spam, online classified ads spam, mobile phone messaging spam, Internet forum spam, junk fax transmissions, social networking spam, television advertising and file sharing network spam."Altteri1 (talk) 17:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Janne Gallen-Kallela-Sirén
Please include the claims of non neutrality of director of Helsinki City Art Museum Janne Gallen-Kallela-Sirén and the investigation of it. Gallen Gallela Siren position in the board of drectors and his wife work in the company owned by Ehrnrooth family members was discussed to effect his neutraliy to the real estate decisions. It could also, as I understand, influence his position as to continue as Museum Director after evaluation. Watti Renew (talk) 16:49, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Estimation of visitors
There is no need to speculations of numer of visitors. It can be calulated from Espoo. Guggenheim BMW auto exhibition was in Espoo Emma museum. You can calculate black and white from the statistics the number of visitors and turists compared to any other years.

I point out that Guggenheim is not neutral in terms of energy policy. As I understand in the cities most transport should be done by collective trafic. In Espoo transportation is among largest climate gas emittor. BMW is also nuclear power constructor by it fully owned Rolls Royce. Fortum signed an agreement with Rosatom and British Rolls-Royce Motor Cars that is a wholly owned English subsidiary of German automaker BMW to develop nuclear power in September 2013. Fortum inks nuclear, wind power deals with UK firms yle 5.9.2013 Watti Renew (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Contract
As I understand this is a political project to support construction in the middle of Helsinki where town should have a public park in the sea shore. There are too many buildings and very little parks in the area. E.g. this create social problems and increase the noice of the traffic. The view from the precident casttle will change for ever. Guggenheim has made repeated demands for public funds. We do not want Guggenheim, Guggenheim wants to come in Helsinki. What has Finland demeanded from Guggenheim as compensations and guarantees?

What are the demands of Finland for Guggenheim if the project continues? Have politicians learned anything? In Espoo Metsäliitto Finnforest build reacently a huge new head quaters for itself. The Espoo city decided that the Tapiola garden city principles do not apply for Finnforst. The company did not function in the building a single day. It sold the building forward while it was still under construction. Same can happen here. The building life time is at least a 100 years.

Watti Renew (talk) 17:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Have politicians made sure that Guggenheim will funtion in the building in question at all? What are the demands if Guggenheim withdraw before 100 years have passed? Have Guggenheim deposited sufficiently funds to remove the building if they withdraw?


 * Guggenheim claims there will be 500 000 visitors in each exhibition. Finland has calculated the benefit of tourism based on this. If the number of visitors will not be true, the income is less. The contract must quarantee sufficient annual compensations for the state and town for 100 years if the promised number of visitors will not be met. Also the expected number of exhibitions pro year must be fulfilled. Guggenheims expectations are ashtonishing since not even Pablo Picasso exhibition has collected any close to the number of visitors here each month. More so since many Finns will not visit the Guggenheim museum no matter what it will perform based on political disagreement. The demanded investment quarantee must be in correlation to the expected return from 530 000 visitors. Naturally all cost, including the end of operation cost, is in the responsibility of the Guggenheim. No permanent changes in the bedrock can be accepted. Watti Renew (talk) 17:35, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Yes, we note near the top of the article that the majority of Finns opposed the original proposal.  I am researching this article carefully, and I will be making changes soon to explain the controversy and the various proposals. Much of the information in this article is out of date, as the proposals have changed. Within the next couple of weeks I will be expanding, clarifying and updating the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


 * There are new proposals but the history is very relevant. The article may be continued but the deletion of the history is not neutral. Please feel free to include the content of new proposals. I am concerned that the purpose is to tide up opponents by this plan to prevent discussion on other actual teams like the climate change. Naomi Klein has pointed out in her books that this is used method to tide up activists. In my opinion the close contact to the oil producer country shows that this building project is linked to the interest to close the Fossil-fuel phase-out. The consructors have also interest to limit the actual discussion of the tax havens. Only two persons have been reported by name in the matter of tax hiding in the news: one member of the Ehrnrooth family is the other one. His family is also Guggenheim Museum Helsinki Plan idea initiator. According to the news Ehrnrooth has also funds in Luxembourg.    Watti Renew (talk) 16:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Ehrnrooth again
OK, now that I have been through the sources, it looks to me like the information about Ehrnrooth is WP:OR, unless you have a source that states that he stands to benefit from the construction of the museum. Otherwise, the fact that he owns a construction company and other real estate interests is purely speculative. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Support for the 2013 plan
Hi, I'm Mikayla and I work at the Guggenheim. I am adding recent support for the Helsinki project that surfaced in the last month in effort to add a balance of opinion. Happy to talk further.-- Mlynch345 (talk) 17:56, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Welcome, Mikayla, and good job with the addition – just remember to fill out the reference with all the bibliographic information, including the author's name and publisher name, even if they are mentioned in the text. Also, please review our guideline on editing with a conflict of interest, which you can see here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Real estate deals + the artistic freedom
User:Ssilvers you asked me to argument the Guggenheim museum critics and real estate deals
 * According to Finnish Art magazine in 2008 German born Hans Haacke exhibition was censored by Guggenhein Museum in 1971. The exhibition included critics of the art museum connections including questionable real estate deals

- The artistic freedom is one of the main requirements and richness to creativity. According to Helsingin Sanomat in Russia artists have more restricted freedom to criticize the leadership and society than in Finland. Based on Hans Haacke, as in reference, Guggenheim Museum does not approve critics of society in conflict with its own interests. It is very serious for any museum. - Museum plan was in front of Presidential Palace, Helsinki and to be 100%  financed by Finns. No other place was possible. Even if Finns had no interest to give this valuable place to this project, we could make the cultural exchange better the other way around. Ateneum, Finnish National Gallery, is excellent in art. I suggest that Washington, D.C. would give Finland equal size Museum, build it and pay all running costs in front of the White House in Washington D.C.. There many people could see artworks from Finnish artistic freedom.

In my opinion the critics deserves place in the article. Please add more info of Hans Haacke exhibition. Watti Renew (talk) 16:45, 19 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi. I do not understand how this material is related to the Guggenheim's Helsiniki proposals.  Perhaps it belongs in some other article about Helsinki, or perhaps it does not belong in an encyclopedia, but in some kind of book or magazine. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

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