Talk:Guido de Bres

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heading
removed because I have been accused of promoting my book ieuan Sant 23:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is already an article under Guido de Bres and Guido de Bray will be merged within seven days (see below) - suggest you migrate any useful content to the original article here. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * NOte if your main puprose here is to plug your own book forget it. This encyclopaedia can be edited by anyone and you have no ownership of articles that you create. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I have no intention to plugging my own book and shall remove that reference to a book from my earlier message. I don't know who you are Jezhtwells but I think you are rude and have abused Wikki by labeling this an unclear ramble, this is a serious bit of research and very important to all people in the Netherlands and especially to the Calvin project. You make an accusation that i am plugging a book when I have no intention of doing so and the book will be free anyway so there is no monetary gain involved.ieuan Sant 10:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC) I don't want the article merged until the name has been sorted out.ieuan Sant 10:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ieuan Sant (talk • contribs)
 * OK, you don't want the article merged. That is your opinion, two others disagree so it looks like it will be merged. Both names are used for this person in various sources.  Wikipedia guidelines (Manual of Style (proper names)) state that Redirect pages can insure that all variants lead to the desired article.Content forking states: Content forking can be unintentional or intentional. While Wikipedia contributors are reminded to check to make sure there is not an existing article on the subject before they start a new article, there is always the chance they will forget, or that they will search in good faith but fail to find an existing article, or simply flesh out a derivative article rather than the main article on a topic. Wikipedia's principle of assume good faith should be kept in mind here. If you suspect a content fork, give the creator of a duplicate article the benefit of the doubt. Check with people who watch the respective articles and participate in talk page discussions to see if the fork was deliberate. If the content fork was unjustified, the more recent article should be merged back into the main article. There is clearly no justification for having two articles about the same person with different titles. The naming difference is likely just the difference in naming between Flemish and Wallonian. Now either you can co-operate in the merging by transferring content or not. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Merger
Obviously Guido de Bray has to be merged with this page, as we cannot have two articles about the same person. I propose to merge the content within seven days and then convert this article into a redirect. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment (moved from Talk:Guido de Bray)
removed irrelevant ieuan Sant 23:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Merge (moved from Talk:Guido de Bray)
This article should be merged with the existing article Guido de Bres, which has existed since 2007, and discusses the same person. Markussep Talk 16:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC) I have already explained that want to keep the name as the name is vitally important, his name is always Guy de Bray and not Guido de Bres. se my explanation with sources in my talk. He is refered to be lots of people as de Bres but without faoundation. See Dutch author Dr L. A. van Langeraad;'s explanation from original documents at that time.

Are you an official of Wikki and what powers do you have? ieuan Sant 23:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ieuan Sant (talk • contribs)


 * I'm not an official and do not have administrator rights. However, I am an experienced Wikipedia editor, and I speak Dutch, English, French and German. I already explained to you, quoting Wikipedia rules, that there really can't be two competing articles about the same subject. If you think the title of the existing article is not correct (and remember the title should reflect English usage: how is the man called in English, not in Dutch or French), you should use the Requested moves procedure. But the articles must be merged, and since the "Bres" article is much older and several editors contributed to that, your article should be merged into the "Bres" article. If you need help, I can assist you. Markussep Talk 07:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Then if you are not an official I would like someone to officiate on this problem, I don't want to merge because of your spelling of the name (de Bres), I have explained at length in an ealier post why De Bray is so important I have quoted several 16th century sources in detail and have given the page numbers from Dr Van Langerman's book on De Bray. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to bring light to a subject, I am presenting a valuable truth regarding De Bray's name as set out by a hugly respected Doctor of Theology from the 19th century. You cannot translate a name into English, a name is name and should be kept unless there are huge pronounciation difficulties. Guy de Bray is the name used by his whole family, it is registered on his birth documents and in later life he is referred to as Guy De Bray. It is hugly important to keep that name to the fore in the public domain and not drift into error with the name De Bres. ieuan Sant 10:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I will try to load the frontpiece of Langeraad's book so you can see the spelling and his page explaining his reasons. As he gained his doctorate with this he seems an eminately qualified biographer. ieuan Sant 10:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ieuan Sant (talk • contribsieuan Sant 10:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

De Bray is the name used in a Biography of Guide de Bray written as a doctoral thesis by Dr. L. A. Langeraad of Leiden University in 1884 at Zierikzee: S. Octtman en Zoon. Langeraad obtained his doctrrate from his work on DE Bray and was an expert on the subject. Langeraad offered his these entiltled: Guido de Bray Zijn Levem en Werken Bijdrage De geschiedenis van Het Zuid-Nederlandsche Protestantism to Academisch Profschrift Ter verkkrijging van den Graad van Doctor in Godgeleerheid op gezag van den Rector-magnificus Dr. G. D. L. Huet voor de faculteit Der Geneeskunde voor de Daculteit te Verdedigen.

DR. L.A. van Langeraad makes a very strong point on page p9 of chapter 1 of his book that the name of Guy is de Bray and not De Bres.

QUOTE Waarom(deze vraag dient eerst beantwoord te worden) Bray en niet De Bres? Op afdoende wijze is dit uitgemaakt door PAILLARD.; Bij het doornikshe predikant Ambrose Wille den 29sten Augustus 1566 een brief schreef: >>a son frere Guy de Bray, a Vallenciennes): dat te Mons, in oude stukken o.a. in de Geneaologgies bourgoises de Mons, well ontelbar malen voorkomt de familie De Bray, noit De Bres; dat in T.XXVII van de papiers du conseil des Troubles voorkomen Les interogatoires politiques de Guy de Bray, en eindelijk dat in al de processtukken van de broeders van Guy, geen andere spelling wordt gebezigd dan De Bray. END OF QUOTE

I hope this satisfies that the correct name is Guy de Bray and not Guido de Bray, Bres, Brerss or Bras. In my oncomming book I make the point of the languages used by Guy, Vlams, (Belgium form of Dutch), Walloon (type of French, Picard (Flemish variation, Latin (the Belgic Confession was written in Latin) and probably Greek and Hebrew. Ina letter to his mother Guy actually signs himself as 'Guide'. We don't know too much about the mother but it is possible she was more adept at Wallon than Say Flemish. In any event Dr. langeraad is convinced that the proper speling is Guy de Bray and I think we should adopt that usage.ieuan Sant 22:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ieuan_Sant"ieuan Sant 10:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * How many times do I have to explain this? If you think "Bres" is wrong, start a move discussion at WP:Requested moves. And don't start your own article at a different title. Any administrator will tell you the same thing. You have one 19th century Dutch source you keep quoting for "Bray", that's not enough for establishing English usage. See Naming conventions (use English) for more information. If you don't believe me, ask someone else here: Editor assistance. Markussep Talk 12:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no English Equivelent for Guy de Bray, Guy is used in English as well as the Netherlands, De Bray keeps the name aswel in English as in Dutch, Bres is French or wallon and no English, there is nothing English about Bres. I think you should drop your article as it is much smaller than mine and you use the name Bres which is wrong in my opinion. Other writers use the name Bray and not Bres. I appreciate that Dutch nationals speak several languages as does my wife, Dutch (mother tongue), English (near perfect fluency after 45 years), German, Gronings (mother tongue)and French. ieuan Sant 14:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ieuan Sant (talk • contribs)


 * "Bres" is not my article, and "Bray" is not yours either. This is Wikipedia, not your or my own book. There are several authors who use "Bres" in English: Guido de Brès, Guido De Bres, Guido de Brès, Guy de Brès, Guy de Brès, and of course there are also books calling him Guy de Bray, Guy de Bray. But that's not my point: there shouldn't be two articles about this man. Quote from Content forking:


 * While Wikipedia contributors are reminded to check to make sure there is not an existing article on the subject before they start a new article, there is always the chance they will forget, or that they will search in good faith but fail to find an existing article, or simply flesh out a derivative article rather than the main article on a topic. Wikipedia's principle of assume good faith should be kept in mind here. If you suspect a content fork, give the creator of a duplicate article the benefit of the doubt. Check with people who watch the respective articles and participate in talk page discussions to see if the fork was deliberate. If the content fork was unjustified, the more recent article should be merged back into the main article.


 * So that's what needs to be done: your text needs to be integrated into the "Bres" article, and then we can decide what the name of the merged article should be. If you have a problem with that, ask someone else for advice at Editor assistance. Markussep Talk 15:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * There are no officials, if you mean administrators, then they are just ordinary editors with sysop powesr to enable blocks and page protection. I propose to merge the contents of this page into Guido de Bres within seven days.  If you have any useful content here that you want to put in Guido de Bres then please do so. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have merged the content and merged the articles. Some tidying may be needed. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

After the merger
Now that we have one article about Guy/Guido de Bray/Bres again: do we want to open a discussion about the article title? In my opinion there is no "wrong" name, all four versions are used in English. I created redirects from some other versions, and "caught" a few red links that way. I'm not an expert on 16th century theologians, but from a general point of view, I'd say that Guy is the French and English version, and Guido the Dutch and Latin version. Bray and Bres are both French, and pronounced similarly in French. Markussep Talk 11:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It's all your markup, I will not contribute further until this issue is resolved, I feel very strongly that Guy De Bray is the primary name to be used in the English language. I have been studying De Bray for some time and feel he desrves expert treatment because of his importance to the whole history of the Reformation, Reformed Christianity, History of Holland, History of Belgium, further information re: Calvin, Luther and a Lasco, The Belgic Confession and other confessions of faith. ieuan Sant 23:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ieuan Sant (talk • contribs)
 * Well, the majority of journals and books I can find online in English say de Bres or de Brés, sometimes de Bray is given in parentheses. Also it looks as if most other references in Wikipedia say de Bres. So I disagree. Perhaps we should raise a request for comment? Please remember sign your posts by typing four tildes  ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button Insert-signature.png located above the edit window.  This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. Jezhotwells (talk) 10:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm from a Dutch background, which may reflect my thoughts on this. I have never heard of the use of 'Bray', although I have seen his first name as 'Guy' and 'Guido'. The ultimate decision could be made on how his name was registered; however, as long as readers are directed to the one page that indicates the variations to his name we should all be satisfied. Robeik (talk) 06:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)