Talk:Guitar Songs/Archive 1

Is Guitar Songs an EP or single?
It's only one song on the A-side and one song on the B-side. Itunes calls it a single for this reason. Should it be called a single or EP? Kart2401real (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC) 📝 "Don't get complacent..." 05:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I actually asked the same question in this talk page a few hours after its release (ping @Kart2401real). See this diff. However, there are a preponderance of sources that describe Guitar Songs as an EP - see the diff for three out of many - including the Official Charts Company (Billie Eilish surprise-released a morose new acoustic-led EP last week and its two tracks - TV and The 30th). When it comes to concerns like this, we go by what the majority of reliable sources say; as far as I know, relatively few non-streaming-service sources call GS a single. Even then, per SINGLESCRIT, having a release be marked as a single on iTunes or Apple Music is not necessarily indicative that the release in question is a single. To quote SINGLESCRIT, [in Itunes,] "single" is present next to all independent releases, official or not. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍  ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"

Why is Guitar Songs considered an EP despite not being extended playing?
It’s only one song on the A-side and one song on the B-side. Why is Guitar Songs considered an EP when it isn’t extended playing? Kart2401real (talk) 14:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

📝 "Don't get complacent..." 14:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Kart2401real, please look at the invisible comment in the article's source code. "Even though streaming services brand it as a single, *do not change* the parameter to single. A preponderance of RS, including Billboard (https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/billie-eilish-guitar-songs-best-new-music-1235117382/) and the Official Charts Company (https://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/central-cee-dominates-the-official-trending-chart-with-new-track-doja__36972/), say Guitar Songs is an EP." Note that you already asked this question in the talk page archives here. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍  ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"

Merge?
Continuing the discussion here. As said in the WT:FAC for "The 30th",


 * Oppose [FAC]: should be merged into Guitar Songs along with the only other song on that EP, 'TV'.
 * Indopug, respectfully, I invite you to take a good, hard look at WP:NSONG and to continue this discussion in Talk:Guitar Songs because this is way outside the purview of a FAC.

I assume you are attempting to evoke details these parts of NSONGS that say "Coverage of a song in the context of an album review does not establish notability" and "the only coverage of a song" must not "occur in the context of reviews of the album". The word "review" there is doing some very heavy lifting, because it can be interpreted one of two ways. Are we referring to critical reviews of Guitar Songs? If so, this immediately makes "The 30th" notable by Wikipedia standards, since so much of the information about it occurs outside of such material. But I want us to abide by the spirit of MOS, so let us add articles about the release(s) into the mix for consideration.

This paragraph summarises everything about my argument, so read this first before proceeding to the wall of text below. The coverage around the debut performance of "TV" is enough to make it individually notable. There is enough coverage around "The 30th" in articles centred around the songs themselves rather than the EP's "story", as I like to put it, to make it notable. The sources that tell said stories make the EP notable. All three articles are notable.

The two song articles exist because not only do we have enough coverage to flesh such articles out, the cited sources centre more on the details of the songs individually, i.e. a breakdown of the two, rather than collectively, i.e. analysing how these songs contribute to the EP's being. An album review gathers information about the songs, whether all of the songs or simply a sample, specifically to synthesise the commonalities between them and all we know about them into an overarching narrative. In this case, the notability goes to the EP itself and not the songs.

Let's get "TV" out of the way
Merging this is more misguided than merging "The 30th", and I feel the most confident in going against this. "TV" had lots of coverage from sources even before it was officially released through the EP. There are over 3 sources cited in its article that discuss it outside the context of the EP, and even when it was released, some articles still chose to focus on "TV" away from "The 30th", giving it individual notability. Case in point -.

"The 30th" is... more complicated
Since it is more complicated, this situation would require a more intricate analysis of the sources apart from a glance at the title to figure out notability. It does have this source : one that, similar to the NYT piece, strips it away from the context of "TV" and Guitar Songs. Without a shadow of a doubt, this counts towards notability and is the easiest one to explain away.

Meanwhile... Much of the others cited in the article have titles written in some manner of "Billie Eilish releases 'TV' and 'The 30th'" or "Billie Eilish" Releases Two Songs". Once again, this structure tells us the sources give notability to the individual tracks rather than, or perhaps in addition to, the EP.
 * I want you to read this Uproxx piece. It is titled "Billie Eilish Releases TV and The 30th" and has the sentence "TV is finally out today, along with a brand new track titled The 30th, both on a double-single dubbed Guitar Songs".
 * With this structure, we can surmise that this article will focus more around the songs individually than the collection of songs itself.
 * But the more notable thing to focus on is that "TV" is merely mentioned here in passing.This article does not contribute to the notability of "TV". There is way more coverage around "The 30th" that it might as well virtually be an article about "The 30th". This, in despite the cited lines "Finneas and I really wanted these to be yours as soon as possible" and the opening sentence "Both of the songs are stripped-down, gentle ballads where Eilish’s vocals and incisive lyricism are the driving forces," which would otherwise make the Uproxx source structurally about the EP.
 * Now, while the title doesn't explicitly suggest such a thing, take this Rolling Stone piece. The structure here goes as follows: the first paragraph introduces us to Guitar Songs, tells us what the tracks are, and uses the next six paragraphs---half of which go to either TV or 30th---strictly to talk about the two songs. We get superficial, virtually zero coverage on how TV and 30th create a story that is Guitar Songs---whether the angle be through the composition, the lyrics, the reasons why Eilish released them by surprise, etc. Using basic semantics, one gets the impression this is a somewhat disjointed commentary on the two songs that happen to be part of an EP, rather than a commentary on the EP.
 * American Songwriter called "The 30th" as Eilish's tenth best song here. Once again the focus is not on GS but rather the two tracks; the fact it was "The 30th" specificaly that was ranked should be enough.

For an outside example of how structure is important in determining whether pairs of songs from a certain release are notable on their own, let's look at this Uproxx source. Does this make the extended, web-exclusive version of the album notable? No; it focuses on the two tracks. The existence of such coverage contributes to the notability of "PSA" and "Open Arms".

And what would count towards the EP's notability are the reviews for the EP itself. Have at these ones from Variety and People. While there is a discussion on the two songs by itself, Variety and People intersperse it with coverage about the lead-up to the EP, weaving some overarching story on the two songs. They highlight facts like why the two songs were released out of nowhere (quoting the "I don't want to wait until the next album cycle to put these songs on an album" line and mentioning how Eilish found their voice memos one day which moved her so much she knew she had to do the surprise drop); who produced and wrote both of the songs; and how these two songs were the only ones after her last album at the time. We also have the Manila Bulletin, the Guardian, and another Uproxx reference to consider.

‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍  ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?" 📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 11:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC) 📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 09:13, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Per WP:PAGEDECIDE, "at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context (and doing so in no way disparages the importance of the topic)." A song might be notable enough for its own article, but that does not necessarily mean it is better to have its own article. I think it is more understandable for readers to combine all of them into Guitar Songs, which has plenty of room for expansion. Just add a couple paragraphs to the composition and critical reception sections. After that's done, there isn't anything that "The 30th" or "TV" would cover that Guitar Songs wouldn't, so there's really no need for separate articles and they can be redirected to Guitar Songs. Heartfox (talk) 01:32, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Heartfox. I had not seen that before, so I was wondering what the rationale for the oppose was. In that case, give me a few moments and I'll be overhauling this article soon. <b style="border-radius:3em;padding:4px;background:#37607C;color:white;">‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ </b> ‍ <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left"><sup style="font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline">💬 "Will you call me?"