Talk:Gulden (historical denomination)

This article probably needs moving to something like "South German and Austro-Hungarian Gulden" with just a link to the Dutch gulden. This was a single denomination (and standard unit of account), issued by many states within a currency union. It therefore makes sense to me at least to make this a single article rather than having separate articles for "Bavarian gulden", "Baden gulden", "Austro-Hungarian gulden", etc. Dove1950 13:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Mh. How about German Confederation gulden? That should be accurate enough, no? And to boot, the German Confederation re-formed itself in 1871, and subsequently, the gulden was abolished in 1873, so that should be historically correct... [[Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg|20px]] ナイトスタリオン ✉ 17:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The German confederation spanned all of Germany as it then was but did not include Hungary, so it wouldn't be entirely accurate. I agree that "South German and Austro-Hungarian gulden" is a mouthful but there doesn't seem to me to be a better idea. Maybe someone else can suggest something? Dove1950 18:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * on the Austria-Hungary page, the currency is listed as "Rhine guilder", which sounds nicer than "South German and Austro-Hungarian gulden", but I don't know how accurate it is. Another complicating factor is that Austrian florin and Hungarian forint are already separate pages (although Hungarian forint is just about the modern Hungarian forint). Perhaps the solution is to keep the pages separate with links to each other and a reference to the fact that it's just different names for the same currency? I don't really like that... Is there a name for the monetary union? That would be ideal, but it sounds like either there wasn't or we don't know what it was. Another complicating issue is that before 1867, it was Austria, not Austria-Hungary (at least according to Wikipedia sources Austria and Austria-Hungary). I don't know what currency Hungary used before then. Mom2jandk 01:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Part of why this topic confused me so much was that from the gulden article, it seems like the german gulden and the austrian (austro-hungarian) gulden had different amounts of silver in them (1/20 vs. 1/24 of a Cologne mark). That's what made me think they were different currencies. One more thing that confuses me is how the Vereinsthaler and Thaler fit into the picture. Did the vereinsthaler have a fixed amount of silver in different regions? Its page definitely says that it was worth a different number of guldens in different regions (germany/austria-hungary). Mom2jandk 01:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I missed the point of the complaints earlier. Sorry. I've revised this article and would suggest that it now be split into separate Austrian and German articles. The problem has been me getting confused by the fact that the German states issued coins worth half a Conventionsthaler which some called a Gulden. However, as these coins aren't mentioned, I think it's probably best to split up Austria-Hungary and Germany and then expand the German article to take these into account. Only problem then is, can we call the Hapsburg Empire Austria-Hungary before the establishment of the Dual Monarchy in 1867? Dove1950 17:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe that would be my fault. When I asked you to take on the Gulden page, I didn't explain exactly why. I'd been chatting on the Numismatics Project talk page with Nightstallion and forgot that you probably hadn't read that. Sorry. I like what you've done so far with the gulden page. Okay, as far as Austria vs. Austria-Hungary, I think I misunderstood the history before. Rather than Hungary joining Austria, it was more of a name and status change where before, Hungary was a part of the Austrian Empire, and after it was a Dual Monarchy, but the borders didn't change. Is that right? If so, I don't think it would be so wrong to call it Austro-Hungarian gulden. Mom2jandk 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It's rather complicated even for Austrian history buffs like me, but basically, yes, it was just an internal status change. [[Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg|20px]] ナイトスタリオン ✉ 13:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

So, we should probably split this? ナイトスタリオン ✉ 13:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep, let's split this into two. I think an article bringing together all the different silver standards used in Germany and Austria-Hungary might be useful, perhaps with a table? I'll have a think about how best to display this rather confusing information. Dove1950 17:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)