Talk:Gulliver's Travels/Archive 1

Genre
My english literature teacher told us "the travels..." can be considere the very first "high fantasy", but I think it is more like a a kind of "proto-high fantasy" (check out the high fantasy article to find why) so it could be considere also a "fantasy book" since thereare many things that can fit within the fantasy genre rather than being list as a science fiction book (Verne wasn't born yet...lolz) Can we add fantasy to the the genres and change the category? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.173.147.73 (talk) 03:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Error in second paragraph
In the second paragraph, it's stated; Alexander Pope stated that "it is universally read, from the cabinet council to the nursery" However, from my own research it appears that it was not Pope, but John Gay who said this. I'm not confident enough to change the article myself, but perhaps this will bring it to the attention of someone more knowledgeable on the subject than I.


 * You're correct, the quote is from a letter dated Nov. 17, 1726, from Gay to Swift, despite any number of references attributing it to Pope (none of which cite a primary source). The confusion probably stems from a source that quoted Pope's letter to Swift the prior day, then goes on to quote Gay's letter. I made the correction and added a footnote. Gr8white (talk) 00:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There is also some "gibberish" in the second para of "Faulkner's 1735 edition", to wit: This edition sometimes it was great an added piece by Swift,... Which makes NO sense as far as I can tell. I'm not even sure what it's trying to say so I left it as-is so that someone could decipher it who was more familiar with the subject matter OBloodyHell (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I restored the text from a previous version. Gr8white (talk) 05:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

tiny changes
I find it impossible to believe that the writers of Futurama and Anthony Burgess had Gulliver in mind, so those references had to be taken out. Head meaning 'Gulliver' wouldn't add anything and the 'playing god' theme comes up in South Park and Simpsons. Also- the fourth part doesn't definitely show a society that's "better" than England, and Gulliver is ridiculed for becoming obsessed with a set of values that revolve around enslavement of humans and eating oats. Maybe someone could revise the analysis.


 * In A Clockwork Orange "gulliver" is just a corruption of the Russian word for head. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.86.142.36 (talk) 15:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

POV
"It is interesting that this fourth voyage seems to have been the one that has most engaged literary critics over the years." whether it is interesting or not is opinion...

Just my opinion
I pulled the sections from the book that still make me howl out loud laughing, and which strike me as being close to quite universal truth. Feel free to cut it back.

I also can't write about Swift without being sarcastic myself, although I do most certainly agree with him about almost everything the man ever wrote.

This book is the beginnings of modern culture, probably uniquely so, with its free written satire and blunt critique of every concept of human "justice"... very few books of the time, with the exception of More's Utopia, would hold up to a reading today as well as this.

I don't think it can possibly be overestimated as an influence on the English language and culture.

But that's just my opinion.

British?
I put "British" to describe Swift, but this doesn't do justice to his Englishness; yet merely to say "English" omits his strong connection with Ireland. Can anyone find a brief yet informative expression? (The aristocrats were joining together as one group of more than just the English ones at that point, though it was well short of complete as the Camerons among others were yet to show.) PML.


 * "Anglo-Irish" would be a better term to use for him, after all he was born in Ireland and spent most of his life here. -Dubhthach

Royal Society
It is widely supposed that Laputa was a strict satire of the Royal Society, which Isaac Newton also despised 

Is there a typo in that sentence somewhere ?

Newton was President of the Royal Society so it seems unlikely that he would despise it. --Imran 20:50 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Editorializing
The article says:


 * They also rely on showing each other visible objects rather than speech in words wherever possible, considering it "purer". It is not recorded whether any of them ever spelled out "Welcome to Macintosh", but it seems likely.  Again, Swift's satire stands to this day.

That's funny, but it seems to me that it's editorializing. -- Dominus 19:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Merge?
I don't like the current situation, where there's separate articles for each section of the book and also much detail about each section in this article. Somebody should either move the details to the sub-articles or fold the sub-articles into this one. (But which? That's the question...) --Paul A 06:48, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree. There should be a page dedicated to the discussion of Endianness. That would create a great discussion!! --DannyM 17:07, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Brobdingnag on Votes for Deletion
There is a proposal on Votes for deletion currently to delete Brobdingnag and redirect it to the main article. In my view, this section of Gulliver's travels is of such importance that it warrants its own page. I have cast my vote on the Vfd page and I would encourage people with an interest in Gulliver's Travels to have their say. Capitalistroadster 00:17, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why deletion?
Why did the last edit delete some information about adaptations? If they cannot justify this I may revert?

By the way, what is the procedure for removing the "cleanup" categorisation? PatGallacher 11:43, 2005 Feb 5 (UTC)


 * The deletion appeared to be simply vandalism; I have fixed it. As for removing the cleanup tag, I think it requires someone rewriting the rather verbose article and cleaning up the tone. I'll try it if I get some free time, but anyone else is more than welcome to do so as well. --b. Touch 14:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm wondering how/why the page needs "cleaned up"? As GT is, in my opinion, one of the ifinest books ever written in English I'd be happy to have a go but I'd be interested to know what's wanted : a complete new article, a root canal of the existing one or just a buff and shine?

I'll have a go, whatever, but I don't want to raise any hackles as I'm new to this wiki thing.

Rewritten in toto
I rewrote the entire article. It still needs extensive polishing, spellchecking and better attribution of sources (I need to get to a library to consult the collected correspondence for instance) but I reckon it's better than what was there. The article I rewrote contained some useful information but also felt like a Lit Crit piece rather than an encyclopedia article and I distinctly doubted its NPOV.

I'd welcome all improvements with open arms (or the wiki equivalent) AxS 21:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Book 1
I removed a comment saying that only the first part is well known, what evidence is there for this. I think a case could be made for this being the most popular, although we cannot mention that in this article, but I would not say that it is any better known than anything else in the book. Also it seems odd making comments about the undeniable popularity of this work then saying that the first book is very well known and the rest is not, it seems bizarre that people would stop reading such a popular book after the first section. Rje 15:06, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Comment on the first book was mine -- the first voyage is extensively bowdlerized as a work for children and many people read this in their childhood and never bother with it again. Vide Samuel Johnson's comment on GT : "Once you have thought of the big people and the little people the rest is simple" (or words to that effect). Most people think of solely the first voyage or maybe the first two but the third and fourth will only be known by people who've read the book proper.

Having said all that I accept that the comment may have been inappropriate to the article. AxS 12:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have checked this myself occasionally and children's editions invariably consist of the first 2 books, except that very recently somebody has produced a version for children, I assume made "child-friendly" but based on all 4 books. PatGallacher 16:19, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Orwell's expression
Would a normally careful writer like Orwell really have used the sloppy phrase "six most indispensable books"? PatGallacher 18:37, 2005 July 16 (UTC)
 * Yes, he would -- the context was something like "If one were to make a list of six books that were to be saved (...) Gulliver's Travels would certainly be on the list". It's quoted on the back of a recent "Classics" edition of GT.  The phrase "six most indispensible books" is quoted in the introduction to the Oxford World Classics edition.  I don't have it to hand (but I'll check over the weekend) to give the absolute source but I believe it was a radio interview, so he may not have crafted his words as carefully as he otherwise might. AxS 11:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Got it. It's from "Shooting an Elephant" (1950) AxS 10:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"If I had to make a list of six books which were to be preserved when all others were destroyed, I would certainly put GULLIVER’S TRAVELS among them." - POLITICS VS. LITERATURE: AN EXAMINATION OF GULLIVER’S TRAVELS (1946), http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79e/part43.html

Suggestion/Gulliveriana
It might be worth adding a section on Gulliveriana (I'm not sure this is a real word), those works produced after Swift's that provide further adventures of Gulliver, or differing versions of the originals. As Gulliver was immensely popular (especially the first two books) many people wrote books and poems about the character(or other characters and locations from the book). These things are alluded to here on the talk page, but merely as adaptations and bowlderizations. Granted, such things certainly existed, but not all (or perhaps even most) of them were bowlderizations. A section discussing these productions (including the bowlderizations) might be valuable, and moreover, would attest to the cultural significance of Swift's work.--MS
 * I support this idea. Myself, I will be able to add two entries on obscure Gulliver-inspired novels that I read. Trapolator 18:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * How about a related section in or around the publication history? Such things as the "Lilliputian Odes" (vaguely obscene poetic parodies produced in 1727) or Gay's poems about the book could go there?  I'm sure there must be other stuff produced in the 275+ years between publication and today.  I'll see about finding a bibliography if you think it's relevant. AxS 11:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Allusions
I was hoping to find many of Swift's allusions to British politics. For instance, I understand that the episode where Gulliver urinates on the Queen's palace, thus putting out a fire, and is surprised that the Queen is ungrateful, indeed hostile; is an allusion to an episode where he wrote a pamphlet in defence of (I think) Queen Anne who hated it and became his enemy as a result. 220.238.81.162 04:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Generally, any modern edition would do that for you. If you're a UK reader, I recommend the Oxford World Classics edition, it has a heap-o-footnotes and is reasonably priced.  (As a sidenote, Anne was not a friend of Swift and it's reckoned that the urinating on the palace epiode is a mix of "putting out a fire by irregular means" (relating to Bolingbroke's secret peace negotiations with France) which were later declared illegal, as was Gulliver's urination, and Anne's prudishness about Swift's satiric writings). AxS 10:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Cavehill claim
Quote : "The idea for Gulliver came from the profile of the sleeping giant profile of the Cavehill in Belfast."

Did it? Says who? Certainly there's no mention of it in any of Swift's correcpondence and, given that the "Giant" part of Gulliver's Travels is only 1 part in four, this strikes me as an unattributable attestation made by Belfast locals (Swift lived and worked in Dublin for the last 33 years of his life). I've qualified the sentence heavily but find me any proof that Swift was inspired by the Cavehill and I'll be happy to have it reverted back. AxS 12:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Swift lived awhile in Belfast; from the Jonathan Swift article: "Then, apparently despairing of gaining a better position through Temple's patronage, Swift left Moor Park to be ordained a priest in the Church of Ireland and was appointed to a prebend in Kilroot, near Belfast in 1694". Swift would have been more than familiar with Cavehill, as is anyone who has lived in Belfast. The outcrop at the top is called "Napoleon's Nose", as it looks like a giant profile of Napoleon; it seems that people have been aware that it looks like a sleeping giant for some time. Also, it is mentioned on the BBC's website here (bottom of page). I know none of this is concrete proof, but I hardly think it is beyond the bounds of possibility that a man who wrote a story featuring a giant man was inspired by a landscape he was familiar with that looked like a giant reclining man. My grandparents who grew up in Belfast tell me they remember hearing the story about Cavehill when they were young, so if it is an invention, it is not a recent one. Like I say, not "proof", but food for thought. Martin 01:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Length
Why is this article so much shorter than it used to be? Any rejections to restoring it to it's original size? Sinatra Fonzarelli 00:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Maps
This article would probably benefit from inclueding the original maps, but the only scan I can find on Wiki right now is commons:Image:Moll_-_Map_of_Lilliput.png, maybe not the greatest... AnonMoos 16:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Relative sizes
I have a problem with the scales and/or dimensions given in the main article. First, it states that the Lilliputians were 20 cm high. If the average height of a man is assumed to be 180 cm, that's a ratio of about 9:1. Next, the Brobdingnagians are described as being 12 m high. That's about 6.7 times higher than the average human. The article goes on to state that the scales were 12:1 and 1:12. Something's wrong. It's been a few decades since I read the book, and my memory is certainly fallible, but I think the ratios in the article (1:12 and 12:1) are correct and the given heights (20 cm and 2 m) are incorrect. Can someone check? Thanks. Steven marzolian

If I remember Michael Foot's introduction correctly, Swift states that the Lilliputians were indeed a twelfth of the size of normal humans, a size which he normally sticks to, but he breaks this in a few places e.g. when he has the Lilliputian cavalry drilling on Gulliver's handkerchief. PatGallacher 21:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Flappers
I'm at a loss to see how mention of these useful people can have escaped this article. The word itself is used by those who study politics, politicos, and political ways; as in so many things, Swift made concrete and memorable a social pattern seen up and down the ages. I shall quote the text at length:

"I observed, here and there, many in the habit of servants, with a blown bladder, fastened like a flail to the end of a stick, which they carried in their hands. In each bladder was a small quantity of dried peas, or little pebbles, as I was afterwards informed. With these bladders, they now and then flapped the mouths and ears of those who stood near them, of which practice I could not then conceive the meaning. It seems the minds of these people are so taken up with intense speculations, that they neither can speak, nor attend to the discourses of others, without being roused by some external taction upon the organs of speech and hearing; for which reason, those persons who are able to afford it always keep a flapper (the original is CLIMENOLE) in their family, as one of their domestics; nor ever walk abroad, or make visits, without him. And the business of this officer is, when two, three, or more persons are in company, gently to strike with his bladder the mouth of him who is to speak, and the right ear of him or them to whom the speaker addresses himself...."

Flappers are seen in and out of goverment offices; exactly as in Laputa, people often demonstrate status by refusing to hear or speak until permitted to do so by their flappers. No educated person should be unaware of this reference; I'll add it to the article when I can find the place for it -- and a decent citation of the analysis. John Reid 05:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Visiting this page on 11/19 I discovered vandalism in a few passages. I am not sure what the intended meaning of the phrases would have been, so I have not made any changes, but I bring it to your attention.

Anyone seen this?
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_14-8-2005_pg9_1

Sequel
There was a sequel written to it, said to have been written by Gulliver and brought to print by David Shacham (though I'm quite sure David Shacham wrote it himself, since computers and planes are mentioned...), titled The Travel of Gulliver to the Land of the B'Blonghi (or something like that) (Hebrew: מסעות גוליבר לארץ הבבלונגי). Should it be mentioned? 瀬人様 20:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There have been many "sequels" to Gulliver, starting immediately after its publication. Many of them are more notable than this one. RandomCritic 06:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Anagrams
The section on anagrams, except for the examples themselves, comes from a footnote to the Penguin edition of Gulliver's Travels, written by Robert Demaria Jr. It's somewhat paraphrased, but probably not enough to avoid being plagiarism.See Google Books, if this link works. I have to say it sounds like anagram looniness to me--there's a couple in the list that are obviously anagrams, but if you're allowed to substitute letters when you're decoding anagrams you can find absolutely anything that you're looking for. Maybe this theory is not really so notable? I don't find much discussion of it online except for this footnote, though you do find Clark's book for sale several times. Nareek 04:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed from article
I don't believe that the following citations are either significant enough (either in relation to the work they appear in, or to the Travels) or, in many cases, clearly enough connected to Swift's work, to be included. RandomCritic 13:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Uses of names

 * The Japanese animated film Castle in the Sky features a flying island called Laputa. Hayao Miyazaki has stated the name comes from Swift's book.
 * In the Stanley Kubrick film Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb, one of the B-52 bomber's target in Russia is a missile complex at 'Laputa'.
 * In the Nintendo game by Shigesato Itoi, MOTHER 2 (EarthBound in the US), the second "Your Santuary" is named Lilliput Steps. It is a series of extremely tiny footprints.
 * In Kingdom Hearts II at the Timeless River, a small area is called Lilliput, which is a very miniature town.
 * Larry Niven's Known Space ARM stories feature a character from a club of elderly people devoted to longevity called the Struldbrugs Club.

Parodies and inspirations

 * Sylvia Plath's 1962 poem "Gulliver" makes an allusion to the tale.
 * A parody of Gulliver occurs when Ben Stiller's character in Night at the Museum is tied down with ropes in the same style as Gulliver by 3 inch tall westerners.
 * Another parody of Gulliver occurs in Death Cab for Cutie's music video for their song Crooked Teeth, in which the main singer is tied down with ropes by small figures.
 * In the film Army of Darkness, a parody of the Lilliput scene when protagonist Ash Williams is tied down by miniature demons.
 * In the children's film The Pagemaster, the book Horror is tied down by small figures in a reference to A Voyage to Lilliput.
 * Science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein made his own comment by inverting the scenario in Starman Jones, where a stray spaceship lands on a planet where carnivorous horse-like creatures dominate all other fauna, including human-like creatures resembling Swift's Yahoos. Some readers consider these "horses" the story's clear villains; they not only butcher and eat humans (local and extraplanetary alike), but also practice euthanasia of old and weak members of their own species. Much of the plot is devoted to the Earth humans courageously fighting them.
 * Laputa inspired Isaac Asimov's story "Shah Guido G.", in which a future Earth is groaning under the tyranny of a flying city.
 * Laputa influenced L. Frank Baum's Isle of Phreex in John Dough and the Cherub and his Sky Island.

Quotations
(There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of quotations from the Travels in various works of literature)
 * In Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, the main character, Guy Montag, reads aloud a quotation from Gulliver's Travels. In the dystopian setting of Bradbury's novel, all books have been banned. The specific quotation - "It is computed that eleven thousand persons have at several times suffered death rather than submit to break their eggs at the smaller end" - illustrates the novel's theme of nonconformity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomCritic (talk • contribs) 13:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Lions and Tigers in Africa error
I deleted an erroneous paragraph in the Cultural Influence section. The paragraph claimed that Jonathan Swift wrote about tigers prowling the coast of Africa and that this error had caused the misinformation to enter public knowledge. This mistake was actually made by Daniel Defoe in Robinson Crusoe, not Swift.

Why this book was banned in ireland?
why? it should be included in the article --217.147.37.113 (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Odd?
right i know this sounds like im making this up

in my edition atleast

the very first page

he mentions Master bates on the ship "swallow"

i mean come on...

did that mean anything back then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.73.41.70 (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Brobdingrag
Gullivers Travels is sitting in front of me and in "A Letter From Capt. Gulliver to His Cousin Sympson" Gulliver is requesting that Brobdingnag should be spelt "Brobdingrag" (note the R)but in the notes relating to this Letter it mentions that this Letter didn't appear until the "Faulkner Edition" and I'm no expert on Gullivers Travels so I won't change anything. -Joe


 * Who are you, Joe? -Joe  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.28.88 (talk) 15:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The interpretation is probably wrong
If the book is a satire of e.g. Robinson Crusoe, then why would Swift take the pains to have the manuscript recopied, then transported in secret to london, to a publisher that would print like made and do the dirty deed of distributing & selling all copies in just 2 weeks ?? This makes no sense at all in this article.

At one point a few years back, perhaps on the radio, I heard that Gulliver's travels was a satire of a leader, whose name escapes me, maybe a british nobleman, whose noble goals and good character were completely suppressed by "the little people" in parliament, or maybe even the british general public. That would completely explain the great pains that Jonathon Swift took in secreting away the manuscript and having it published so rapidly - because the book was going to offend ALL THE POWERS in britain.

So, I think this article is in error. In the best light, it makes no sense. SystemBuilder (talk) 05:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you trying to say that Swift imported and recopied Robinson Crusoe? If so, an easy answer to that is this: Swift's confidence in his ability to perfectly attack and assert the opposite of Robinson Crusoe may have caused him to want to redistribute the work previous to his own (or during, or even after) publishing of Gulliver's Travels in order to gain a great deal of ground in terms of reputation.  It is not uncommon for writers to have used each other as political and economic tools, and certainly Swift didn't have the permission to print Robinson Crusoe himself.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.28.88 (talk) 14:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Lack of Specific References
Specifically concerning the "Major Themes" section as an example, this article is heavily lacking references for the literary claims presented. Excuse me if I am mistaken in thinking this is an issue, but in order to understand these ideas, shouldn't we also have the ability to know the source from which they are taken? Some people have issues with people citing Wikipedia. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. (I could personally use a reference for those Major Themes - mergum_flergum@hotmail.com) 24.126.28.88 (talk) 14:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Isaac Gulliver, Dorset, etc.
There's no mention on the article, or in the Talk page so far, of Isaac Gulliver or Dorset.

I don't know if there is any evidence that Swift knew of the Gulliver family or ever visited Dorset in England. But there are some things that seem either strange coincidences or tenuous unproven connections.

Isaac Gulliver was one of a family who lived in Wiltshire/Dorset in the 18th century onwards. The most significant Isaac was born in 1745 to Isaac and Elizabeth Gulliver. Isaac was eventually a respected citizen but was for some years a smuggler of repute. He established several "safe houses" in the Dorset area, particularly between Wimborne, Poole and Christchurch, making use of the then desolate area now occupied by the conurbation of Bournemouth and Poole. There is a district of Poole called Lilliput. It does not derive from Swift's book, but from a farm and separate house that existed in the general area of present-day Lilliput and Sandbanks. It is entirely likely that the area of Lilliput was used by Gulliver because it is on a direct line between his house in Kinson and the coast but there's no proof that the name predated Swift's novel. Gulliver's smuggling operations ceased in 1782.

Seeing that Swift began the novel in the early 18th century and published it in 1726, it seems that his writing was in progress prior to the life and activities of Isaac Gulliver the smuggler. There may or may not be a connection whatsoever between the novel and the real life Gulliver family. I have no idea for further investigation to see if anything may be turned up about this, but I think it is important enough to note on the talk page. So here, I have done it. JH49S (talk) 22:25, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Sinbad Influence?
Did anyone notice there are influence from Sinbad the Sailor tale from Arabian Nights in Gulliver's Travel? Like the stories of several voyages told from first person, or the main character's transformation from mere professional (Sinbad is a merchant and Gulliver is a surgeon) to ship's captain, or even bombing reference (Laputa)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.244.252.163 (talk) 11:35, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Significance of the temple/home ?
In the section on the first voyage there is the following sentence: "The building of residence that Gulliver is given in Lilliput is of note, as in this section he describes it as a temple in which there had some years ago been a murder and the building had been abandoned!" What is the significance of this temple/home? Why is it "of note" and why the exclamation at the end of that sentence? Is there some contemporary structure or event in Swift's time of a church/murder that this alludes to? 66.97.213.202 (talk) 18:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)