Talk:Gunpowder/Archive 1

Added this. deleted some portions, edited the one with Roger Bacon
"There is no direct record of how gunpowder itself was invented, or how it came to be known in Europe and Asia." "Quote by Roger Bacon"

There are numerous documents recording the recipes of gunpowder, along with "early blackpowder/basic salt peter explosives" packed into rockets from as early as Han dynasty (approx. 220 BCE~200 CE). True gunpowder was invented in the 9th century Tang-China. Furthermore, the earliest cannon dates back to the 13th century Song dynasty.

Regarding the quote by Bacon - he never claimed credit for its invention. Its recipe was already known in Europe by his time.

I added this quote from an encyclopedia: "In Europe, the first written mention of the composition of gunpowder in express terms was in Roger Bacon's "De nullitate magiæ" at Oxford in 1234. In Bacon's "De Secretis Operibus Artis et Naturae" in 1248, he states: We can, with saltpeter and other substances, compose artificially a fire that can be launched over long distances... By only using a very small quantity of this material much light can be created accompanied by a horrible fracas. It is possible with it to destroy a town or an army ... In order to produce this artificial lightning and thunder it is necessary to take saltpeter, sulfur, and Luru Vopo Vir Can Utriet. "

This is the first document of gunpowder in Europe - this was not the first document of gunpowder in the world.

Added this portion, from dictionary.com's encyclopedia: http://www.reference.com/search?q=gunpowder

"The origin of gunpowder was probably Chinese, for it seems to have been known in China at least as early as the 9th cent. and was there used for making firecrackers. There is evidence suggesting that it came to Europe through the Arabs. Roger Bacon was long credited with inventing it because a formula for making it is given in a work attributed to him, and some German scholars have credited its invention to the alchemist-monk Berthold Schwarz. However, it is now generally agreed that gunpowder was introduced and not invented in Europe in the 14th century.

It is the oldest known explosive, a mixture of sulphur, charcoal and saltpetre (nitre, potassium nitrate). Invented in China in the 9th-c, the Chinese had guns by 900, rockets and grenades by 1042, and cannon by 1259. Gunpowder was first used in Europe in 1325. Gunpowder mixtures have a range of properties, depending on formulation and granulation. It was the principal military explosive until late in the 19th-c, and is still valuable in primers, fuses, and pyrotechnics."

User:intranetusa 21:25, 10 May 2007 (EST)intranetusa


 * Actually, it is the first recorded recipe for gunpowder, as we defined it above, from anywhere in the world. If you are claiming there was an earlier one, please produce it for the world. Needham surveyed 25 centuries of Chinese literature, and he could not find one. He presents a view that all the previous recipes for protogunpowder were merely experiments with different forms of "carbon content," an appelation under which he lumps honey, realgar, ammonia (which has no carbon) and a million other things that Chinese alchemists put in their "gunpowder." But his first recorded Chinese recipe for actual gunpowder (again, following the definition we already gave) is from the 17th Century. Bacon's recipe is from the 13th Century.


 * I might be alright with rewriting the definition, but we should make clear what the early Chinese recipes were, not just call them all "gunpowder." I'll change Bacon's recipe to specify "black powder." Ocanter 17:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted early Chinese "gunpowder" to "saltpetre explosives," but I also changed European gunpowder to "black powder." That way we make the actual technology clear and let the reader decide if he wants to call it "gunpowder."

Discussion has enough parts where menu seems appropriate
And the menu has shown up all auto-magically.Opalpa 16:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC) Although people are getting pretty passionate about who invented black powder, in its original form, it was pretty useless for guns. Demixing occurred under the effect of vibrations, e.g. in the knapsack of a marching soldier. As a result, the powder sample poured into a gun did not have the right proportions of the three ingredients. The same volume of powder, depending on its vibration history and whether it was sampled from the top or bottom of the powder container could either fizzle or burst the gun barrel. Corning is the process that made black powder reliable for use in guns. It was invented in Europe, probably in France or Italy, when someone mixed a bit of wine with black powder. Stable granules were, then, formed. Each granule contained a mixture of the three ingredients with nearly optimum proportions. Demixing could no longer occur. 129.100.229.166 21:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)Cedric

Cannons first in Europe
Removed the comment that cannon were first seen in Europe unless someone provides a citation. I know cannon were used extensively by the Mongols in the conquest of Southern China.

Ratio of Elements by weight, volume, other measure?
Hello, the ratio of elements necessary for gunpowder fails to note whether the ratio is by weight, volume or a different measure. I'm suprised that almost all internet references leave this out. As someone deeply confused by this I'm inserting by weight, even though I've only found one reference after some extensive searching. Opalpa 16:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The measurements are by weight. By volume, the components are roughly equal as both carbon and sulphur powders are less dense than potassium nitrate. THE KING 08:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The article now makes this clear.Cwiki 09:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Smokless Powder
Umm, I thought that smokeless powder was not considered to be an explosive. Unlike black powder, it doesn't produce an explosive effect (only rapid combustion) when burned in free air. The heightened pressure of a gun barrel plugged by a projectile is necessary to produce any sort of dramatic effect.

Kat 02:08 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Blackpowder just burns in free air also. Rmhermen 04:56 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

When was gunpowder discovered in Europe?
User:68.110.171.226, please provide a cite for blackpowder still being used in mining. Until then, I'm removing it. &mdash;Ben Brockert (42) UE News  00:21, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * There are plenty, but here are two:
 * ,
 * If you're complaining about the present-tenseness, yes, do change that. I'd meant historically, obviously we've got better explosives nowadays. (ie: Nobel prize comes from the innovator of a better explosive for military and mining use).
 * ~ender - 2005-03-18 12:45:MST

Not exactly "Discovered" in Europe
It was not "discovered" in Europe. The Arabs transmitted technology from the east to the west. The same applies to printing and paper making technologies.

-intranetusa

Muslim contributions
Does anyone know if the addition of material about the Muslim background of gunpowder is real? Clearly it should not replace the history information that's already there, but if it holds it should at least be merged. The source given says:

''Mir Fatehullah Khan is known to history as the inventor of gun and gunpowder. The presumption that gunpowder was first made by the Chinese does not stand the test of historical research. Writing in his book Arab Civilization, the author says that "gunpowder was a great invention of the Arabs who were already using guns". Guns were used by Arabs in 1340 A.D. in the defence of Al-Bahsur, when Franzdol besieged it. The statement of Dr. Leabon about the invention of gunpowder by the Arabs is further corroborated by Mr. Scott in his well-known work, History of the Moorish Empire in Spain.''

Interesting, at least. I'm not convinced of the source though &mdash; guidance anyone? For now I'm going to try and merge them, but I'm still not convinced of the source given. &mdash;Zootm 11:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, I've just removed it, it was neither informative nor salvageable. If anyone wants to try and make sense of the source (or give a better one) that'd be good though. &mdash;Zootm 11:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Cannon were made in Ghent in 1313 and Florence in 1326. The earliest Chinese cannon to survive has been dated by Howard Blackmore to 1332. Guns may have been used by the Arabs in Spain in the 1340's. "Mir Fatehullah Khan " - never heard of him. With Khan as a surname he sounds like a Mongol, not an Arab. How can guns predate gunpowder? I suggest it is the confusing terminology of the period. The words applied to guns, gunpowder and bullets originally had other meanings. There is ample evidence for the Chinese invention of gunpowder in the 9th or 10th century. However it was the Arabs or Europeans who realised the importance of saltpetre content in increasing explosive force enough to make cannon practical and deadly (rather than frightening). Read Prof. Partington's History of Greek fire and Gunpowder for the full arguement. I'm sure there are many Journal articles published since his book came out arguing the pros and cons of the Chinese/arab/European debate.&mdash;benvenuto 17:25 18 November 2005
 * The earliest Chinese cannon to survive dated back to 1298,see Huochong Ksyrie 21:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Condescension at its height. Gunpowder development was an evolutionary process, and so to say that since Europeans or Arabs developed more powerful recipes of gunpowder, it must have been because they somehow realized its importance while the slightly more dull Chinese did not, is both Eurocentric drivel as well as historically inaccurate.  The Chinese developed the first recipes that powered their cannons (which they used with lethality against the Mongols, not merely to serve as frightening devices), and the Arabs and later the Europeans improved on the design as Chinese technology began to fall behind that of the West during the 14th and 15th centuries.  The psychological and cultural spindoctoring which you impart on history is rather telling, I must say. Meatwaggon 03:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The Chinese used gunpowder to make firelances and to shoot projectiles from bambee tubes before the date mentioned in the article. The Mongols and the Jurchen Jin dynasty in China used bombs and rockets during the 1200s.CHSGHSF 22:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pressure
The article says, "Unlike smokeless propellants, it acts more like an explosive since its burn rate is not affected by pressure..." Is this correct? My understanding is that the burn-rate of both black powder and smokeless powder does vary with pressure, to the extent that it will detonate if confined. Does anyone have a good reference? Tom harrison 16:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Who invented it
wikipedia: cannons "Fire lances", gunpowder-propelled arrows, were used in China from at least 1132. The first documented record of artillery with gunpowder propellent used on the battlefield is on January 28, 1132 when General Han Shizhong of the Song Dynasty used escalade and Huochong to capture a city in Fujian. In 1221, cast iron bombs thrown by hand, sling, and catapult are mentioned. Somewhere around 1249, the Chinese of the Song Dynasty began to load early gunpowder in the middle of thick bamboo as a projection firearm, firing clay pellets like a shotgun.

Around the time of the wars between the Mongols and the Song Dynasty (1268-1279), mortars with bronze tubes or bronze first appeared.[3] (However, the earliest certain example is dated 1332). Additionally, the Chinese and Mongols took up the use of "true" gunpowder instead of the slower-burning older mixture - which made this early cannon, known as the Huochong, more reliable and powerful. During wartime, the Chinese used the early gunpowder weapons in defence against the Mongols, mounting more than 3,000 bronze and iron casted cannons on the Great Wall of China. The weapon was taken up by the Mongol conquerors later, and was also used in Korea. Many of the earliest weapons seem to primarily have functioned as psychological weapons, a trait gunpowder..."

-intranetusa