Talk:Guttman Community College

Education Program:CUNY, Guttman Community College/ENG 203.03 (Fall 2013)
For the Stella and Charles Guttman Community College Wikipedia page I have innumerous changes to make. I want to divide the article in sections such as History, Campus, Academics, Enrollment, Notable Faculty*, Student life, Current issues, and People. These sections will also be subdivided into more detailed sections. In order to find the information to put on this page, I will do some online research as well as find information on campus. Just as many other community college Wikipedia pages, there is a variety of subsections, however, Stella and Charles Guttman is so new that most of the sections we could include won’t have enough information or won’t be as important or reliable as it should. I believe that the historical part of this article will be the foremost important one as I can include information that will be mainly provided to me on campus. The other sections won’t be as big now since the college is technically working for its second year for the first time. For example, I can include a subsection for clubs in the Student Life section. Or include the Honors list in the Academics section. In addition to the Academics section, I could make a subsection called the “First-Year Experience” and introduce the materials the students see during that time period. These are just some small ideas I have for improving this article. (Oliveira46 (talk) 00:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC))
 * Sounds good! I think it would be good to have the FY Experience part, since that seems to be an important part of the curriculum, from what I've read.  It may also be useful to mention the conflict between founding faculty and the administration as part of the history.  I don't know too much about the college - I came here to find stuff out - but if you need to get a second opinion just leave a message with me.  Thanks, Walkerma (talk) 01:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Clean up - otherwise possible deletion of article.
This article is a complete mess from start  to  finish and is likely  to  be nominated for deletion. For full information  how to  correctly  build school articles, please see WP:WPSCH/AG. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I have begun cleaning this up. Whether or not the main contributors (who appear to be students at the college) intended it, this article read like a poorly written advertising brochure. The language was unencyclopedic commentary and did not adhere to a neutral point of view. The contents were overly detailed for an encyclopedia article. Much of the material was about proposed but currently non-existent academic programs, alleged future developments, non-notable and largely non-existent student clubs, etc.. It was referenced solely to primary sources (i.e. the college itself).


 * Please read College and university article guidelines for how to proceed in editing and expanding this article.


 * Voceditenore (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

If they  want  some examples of community  college articles, here's a rough  list  from  one US state:


 * Allegany College of Maryland
 * Anne Arundel Community College
 * Baltimore City Community College
 * College of Southern Maryland
 * Community College of Baltimore County
 * Carroll Community College
 * Cecil College
 * Chesapeake College - also  needs a serious clean up, above all  removing  all  the names of non notable students, and a lot of the superfluous detail. This was aparently  part of a Wkipedia edu  project -  obviously  very  badly  supervised.
 * Frederick Community College
 * Garrett College
 * Hagerstown Community College
 * Harford Community College
 * Howard Community College
 * Montgomery College
 * Prince George's Community College
 * Wor–Wic Community College

I'm not  saying  they  are all  good, because I  haven't  looked at  them  all, but  some should provide a clear indication  of what's required. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * While I agree with the concerns on style and sourcing, I would disagree that community colleges should be covered in a fundamentally different way from regular college articles; both are notable topics, and if decent sources can be found, we should cover significant aspects of student life in this article just as we would in the Princeton University article.--Pharos (talk) 20:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't  see where anyone is suggesting  that  Community  College articles should be fundamentally different  from  any  other college, university, or school articles. If  done properly  according  to  WP:WPSCH/AG  and College and university article guidelines, they  would all  be basically  the same and we would have consistency throughout  the encyclopedia for all  articles about  educational  institutions. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * They shouldn't be fundamentally different from any institution of higher learning. However, the coverage needs to be in proportion to the institution's scope and history. Princeton has a 250 year history, with a long time to develop student traditions etc.. Guttman was established two years ago and has yet to have its inaugural intake of students graduate. Princeton has almost 8000 students. Guttman opened last year with an enrollment of 300. Princeton is a residential campus, while Guttman and community colleges in general are not. Existing aspects of student life can be covered briefly, but in proportion.


 * The coverage of clubs posted by the students consisted mainly of the fact that the school digital newspaper was founded a month ago (the paper's website was launched 2 days ago) plus separate sections for each of four clubs that are not even due to be launched until next spring . Virtually all colleges have "student governments". Unless there is something particularly unusual about Guttman's, a section like this doesn't belong on the article. At most, it can be summarized in two sentences under the "Student life" section along with the school newspaper. Note that the Princeton article doesn't even cover student government and UC Berkeley's student government, established over 100 years ago and with an annual budget of $1.6 million, is only briefly summarized in the university's WP article. Ditto student services. All colleges and universities have various health, career, and academic support services. Unless there is something so unusual about Guttman's services that they have received significant independent coverage, they don't belong in the article or at most should be covered in a few sentences under "Student life". UC Berkeley's article doesn't even mention their student services, neither does Princeton's. Observe what was in the Guttman article.


 * I'll put suggestions for a future "Academics" section in the talk page section below. Voceditenore (talk) 10:28, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Still, I do think it would be valuable to develop a basic "Student life" section; it is one of the essential sections that every article of this kind should have, even if there are fewer secondary sources covering it (rather analogous to having comprehensive articles on both Oscar winners and small-but-notable independent films). These sections should be developed in the context of the secondary resources available, but they should not be exclusively limited to them.  It is certainly to my mind an omission when a university article doesn't mention student government at all.  I also think it might be good to start CUNY University Student Senate (http://cunyuss.org/), which would fit well in Category:Student governments in the United States.--Pharos (talk) 21:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Note to student editors from Guttman College
When/if you make any additions to this article, please do not paste in a complete over-write of the existing article as you did previously. In doing so, you removed all the categories, proper internal links, the navigation box for CUNY, and many valuable independent references. Work on gradual improvements, and source them properly, preferably to references which are independent of the college itself. The college has a fairly unique approach to higher education, which should definitely be described in the article. I suggest you source this to the two New York Times articles currently in the references—Santora (26 January 2009) and Pérez-Peña (20 July 2012). Do not write it from your own experience, impressions, or point of view. Articles here are written in Wikipedia's "voice", not your own or the college's. I also suggest you ask your course instructor, User:Gpscprof, to participate in the discussions here and to monitor the article's progress following the guidelines at College and university article guidelines. I'm also pinging the online ambassadors listed for this course: User:Pharos and User:Jami (Wiki Ed) – Voceditenore (talk) 18:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree with this, especially in preserving the previous good work on this article, and in making much greater use of the two New York Times articles (and other high-quality independent sources, if they can be found). Voceditenore, thanks for your help in clean-up and style, and advice to the students.--Pharos (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2013 (UTC):

So I am hearing everything the two of you are saying however it can be a little difficult to reference anything beside Guttman's own personal information pages because aside from the couple of NY Times articles there is not really any information pertaining to the college. Obviously following suit with the other local community colleges did not help so is there any specific section we should look at working on first that may be pertinent to the issue at hand? Rah neezy (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Rah neezy. The college's website can be used to source uncontroversial facts, e.g. dates, enrollment, number of faculty, student body composition, name of the school newspaper, etc., but definitely not for anything evaluative. For example, phrases like "a newly formed team of imaginative, inventive visionaries " do not adhere to our policy on neutral point of view. They don't belong in the article at all and give the impression of advertising. Two article sections you and your colleagues could work on would be a succinct "Student life" section along the lines I've suggested towards the bottom of the previous section here (Clean up - otherwise possible deletion of article) and one on "Academics", which I'll expand on in this section.


 * "Academics". Guttman's approach to community college education, the way its curriculum is structured and taught, is quite unique and has more than adequate coverage (for the purpose of this article) in the secondary sources. Both the NYT articles are quite lengthy. Take a close look at them. The planning process is probably currently adequately covered in the "History section". Intricate details of it—what majors they considered but rejected, the list of putative questions they asked, etc., sourced solely to the college, as in this version of the article is disproportionate and not of interest to the general reader, who can consult the further reading I've listed if they really want to learn more. To illustrate the notion of proportion, NASA is an infinitely more complex organization than Guttman College and eight years in the making. The planning of such an organization has filled many books. But for an encyclopedia, a succinct summary, referenced to secondary sources is what's appropriate. Even the separate article on the Creation of NASA is only 780 words, the same number of words that had been devoted to "Strategic planning" in the old version of the Guttman article. Ditto the Peace Corps article. There, the actual planning is covered in the "History" section and consists (quite rightly) of 340 words. Re the majors on offer... Only the actual ones should be mentioned and simply listed. It is inappropriate to write paragraphs on what the subject involves or what kind of careers are open to students who study it, as was done in this version. Simply link to the subject matter articles on Wikipedia, e.g. Information technology, Urban studies, Human services etc. As for yet further substantial sources for the "Academics" section, your college library can probably provide access to this article in a peer-reviewed journal:
 * Meade, Tracy (2012). "Dual enrollment lessons and the development of the New Community College at CUNY". New Directions for Higher Education, Vol. 2012, Issue 158, pp. 91–100,


 * Your library may also have access to this magazine article. If not, just email me and I can send you a copy:
 * Gilroy, Marilyn (22 March 2011). "CUNY's New Community College Gets Ready to Debut". The Hispanic Outlook in Higher Education, pp. 24-26.


 * Finally, I highly recommend these two guides to writing in encyclopedic style:
 * Manual of Style/Words to watch
 * Writing better articles
 * And although not specifically covered in those guides, strictly avoid meta-comments to the reader and addressing the reader as "you", and especially avoid speaking in the college's "voice", e.g.
 * " Now, in order for there to be the application of majors to the curriculum here at Guttman Community College ..."
 *  "As you continue to scroll down the page you will see these offered majors..."
 * Voceditenore (talk) 13:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey,Voceditenore, Wow, this is a lot of information but thank you for such an informative response as well as your tips and some of the guidelines to follow. Being that this is our first time ever attempting a Wikipedia article, so much of this is definitely overwhelming for us. I will be relaying this to my colleagues in hopes of revamping the Guttman site. Considering this is finals week for us, this may be a slow progression for the time being, however, I am determined to continue creating a complete, concise encyclopedic page for our college. Thank you again and when I have another portion completed if you don't mind I will look for your input as we piece this back together. Rah neezy (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)