Talk:Guy of Ibelin

Nomenclature
Would it make most sense to just disambiguate all these guys with dates? Srnec (talk) 06:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And I removed the hatnotes because I thought they were out of line with the manual of style (b/c the titles are not ambiguous), but I could see that they might be useful, so I won't object if they are put back. Srnec (talk) 06:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I fleshed out and sourced the bios, adding two extra Guys. Unfortunately the dates of birth and death are not known, so that is why, following the mass of other Ibelin articles on WP, I adopted "bishop" and "seneschal" for the two new entries. In both cases the secondary/primary sources use "Guy d'Ibelin, senechal de Chypre" (Mas Latrie/royal decree) and "Guy d'Ibelin, eveque de Limassol" (Jean Richard/royal decree) to refer to the two Guys. The date of death of the latter is known precisely, but so far it has not been possible to find precise secondary (or primary) sources for the former. The recently published "Lignages d'Outremer" or the hard-to-find article of Rudt de Collenberg on the Ibelins could possibly be useful. Some speculations of writers like de Cange have been superseded by more recent writers like Jean Richard. On the other hand Louis de Mas Latrie, whose work Peter Edbury is re-editing in English, seems to be a reliable and respected source. He refers to the Guy that died in 1308 as Seigneur du Chateau de Nicosie which I translated as "Lord of Nicosia". Since, in addition, his father and uncle were both seneschals of Cyprus, and the latter outlived him, and there seems to be no reputable academic source that names him as seneschal, this gives three reasons for rejecting him as seneschal (as claimed for example in the corresponding completely unsourced French WP article). It would be much safer however to find additional sources, if they exist. Mathsci (talk) 07:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * According to this entry on the French wikipedia, the son of Philippe d'Ibelin was seneschal and died in 1331 (not circa 1360). I don't know where they got their information. Mathsci (talk) 10:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If we cannot get a reliable source for Guy (d.1308) being seneschal, then we should just remove it. Since I compiled the entire Officers of the Kingdom of Cyprus list just from La Monte, it is clear that he did not list Guy (d.1308) as a seneschal. That is practically an assertion of the opposite, so I think there is a reliable source denying it. Srnec (talk) 20:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The real problem here is that I keep misreading the opening sentence of the Guy (d.1308) article... Srnec (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources have been added for Guy of Ibelin, seneschal of Cyprus. They are, as I have said, the prize-winning "Lignages d'Outremer" and Rudt de Collenberg's articles on the Ibelins. These are properly referenced on the fmg websites. The French wikipedia articles are inaccurate and unsourced. However, both these references are high quality. The Guy who died in 1308 was not a Seneschal but is mentioned in Mas Latrie, as the citation makes clear. The problem seems to be on the French wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 22:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Everything is fine. I just keep misreading the intro to Guy's article as saying that he was seneschal, not his father Balian. I was just providing one reliable source that shows he was not seneschal, but since his article does not claim that he was, this is not necessary. Srnec (talk) 04:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambig notes
Per discussion at User talk:Srnec, I went ahead and restored all the dab notes to the "Guy of Ibelin" pages. I realize that this is not standard practice per WP:MOSDAB, but these Ibelin pages have gotten so tangled, and the history books are often so vague, that I think it's a reasonable option in this particular case to inform our readers that there are other individuals with the same title. --Elonka 20:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)