Talk:Guy of Ibelin (died 1304)

Parentage
Which John of Ibelin is his father? John of Ibelin, the Old Lord of Beirut, married Melisende of Arsuf, and he had a son named Guy, but that family lived too early for this Guy. Adam Bishop 06:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind, apparently he was the son of the jurist (and Maria of Armenia, not Melisende of Arsuf). Adam Bishop 03:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm confused too. That John of Ibelin died in 1266.  So how could he be the father of Guy of Ibelin, who supposedly wasn't born until 1276?  Or did they have sperm banks back then?....   --Elonka 00:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Page move
I'm still not finding any confirmation that this Guy of Ibelin was born in 1276. More likely the birthyear is 1250. Until/unless we can find a solid source, I recommend that we move this page to Guy of Ibelin (died 1304). Any objections? --Elonka 02:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (followup) Since there was no objection, I went ahead and moved the page. --Elonka 03:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Deletions
Some important information from the Medieval historian Le Templier de Tyre about Guy of Ibelin was deleted a few days ago. Could someone kindly reinstate it? Cheers PHG (talk) 19:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC):


 * That information was removed because it's covered elsewhere, and it was giving undue weight here, to Guy's contact with the Mongols. See Franco-Mongol alliance, and Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance. --Elonka 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Deleting is not editing, and just putting a paragraph about Guy of Ibelin's involvement in the Holy Land can't be undue weight. This article is ridiculous small, and is in need of more information on Guy. Cheers PHG (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PHG, thank you for respecting the ArbCom restrictions which banned you from editing all articles relating to medieval history. If you would like to continue to participate on the talkpage in a civil fashion, and to provide other reliable secondary sources which have additional information about Guy, I would be happy to review them. --Elonka 06:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The first bit is (mostly) fine. The entire quote is unnecessary just like it is everywhere else. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. Maybe be we can just leave the quote in the references for anybody to be able to check easily. Cheers PHG (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The quote is a primary source that only mentions Guy of Ibelin in passing. I can't see as it would be a very useful addition to the article. --Elonka 19:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On page 811 of Sylvia Schein's article "Gesta Dei per Mongolos 1300. The genesis of a non-event", there is the following statement


 * This is a perfectly good secondary source, with two connected primary sources (mentioned in Schein). Mathsci (talk) 00:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Rudt de Collenberg
Rudt de Collenberg is one of the standard sources, but I think for some information he has been superseded by Hans Mayer. I can't remember the name of Mayer's article at the moment but he disproved some of Collenberg's conclusions, at least for the early Ibelins. For the later Ibelins (like Guy) I think he is still the usual source. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Does this help you any? (The Mayer reference isn't part of the preview, unfortunately, but maybe you have access to the hard copy.) Choess (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Never mind, I think I've found the reference: 'Carving up crusaders: the early Ibelins and Ramlas,' in Kedar, Mayer & Smail's Outremer. Choess (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, that's the one. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)