Talk:Gwenllian of Wales

Untitled
Ahm. Would the title of this article seem to be a POV and an endorsement, of a pretender or actually a reconstrued pretender???? 217.140.193.123 21:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Your question doesn't make any sense as presently phrased, so I doubt you will get an answer. Deb 21:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess the person might have meant a pretender to the throne. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 23:22, August 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * That doesn't get us much further. Deb 17:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Princess in heading and in text
The more I consider this issue, the more convinced I am that the "Princess" is wrong. It seems to me that at her own time, (almost) no one used the title "Princess" of her. It is probable that only in recent centuries, some nationalists and/or romantics have designated that title to her. As sort of "last representative of the welsh sovereigns". And, had she been called Princess by some in her own lifetime (which is not very probable), that would have meant only a pretension to the throne of a fallen state. It is clear that in those times, the title Prince/ss was not used even of members of royal families. There were no "Prince Edmund, Earl of Kent" or likes, that sort of usage began only centuries later. As a non-reigning daughter of a reigning prince of Wales, Gwenllian would not have been called princess in those times. Here in Wikipedia, we do not endorse pretenders in article headings, nor do we use titles that are anachronistic. All this should be remembered even in the text of this article, but the most important thing is that the heading should not contain the "Princess". I will remove it as soon as I have considered what would be an appropriate heading with sufficient power of disambiguation. Arrigo 17:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is correct. Whoever moved her out of the original article obviously did so for disambiguation purposes.  It wasn't a bad choice, because the activities of the Princess Gwenllian Society have given her a high profile in the past ten years.  However, in my book I refer to her as either "Gwenllian of Wales" or "Gwenllian of Gwynedd" to differentiate her from the other Gwenllian (who was, as you've probably noted, equally entitled to be called a "princess").  I would suggest that one of these alternatives would be preferable to "Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn", which is the only other obvious possibility. Deb 18:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn would be rather uncontestable choice. Gwenllian of Gwynedd would be ambiguous with the earlier Gwenllian, who was daughter of king of Gwynedd and wife of a lord of Deheubarth. Some people would even say that according to some application of NC for monarchical consorts, the earlier G would be G of G. I have only a small doubt about Gwenllian of Wales: namely, was she known by that designation in her lifetime. If not, then that choice should not be adopted. However, at this stage, I am willing to believe that she was known at her own time also as "Gwenllian of Wales". Arrigo 20:31, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Catherine Ferch Llywelyn
RESPONSE

Dwnn, L. 'The Heraldic Visitation of Wales', Vol II., 1846 pp. 24.

The above reference records the visitations of Wales transcribed from original manuscripts between 1586 and 1613 by Lewis Dwnn, Deputy Herald at Arms and is the official record for pedigrees.

It says:

Mam Elnor oedd Katrin vh. Llen ab Gr: ab Llen ab Yeroth frwyndwn ab Owein Gwynedd.

Mam Kathrin oedd Elnor vh. Symont Montffortt iarll Lester.

Mam Elnor, vh. Sion brenhin Lloiger.

It couldn't be clearer that Catheriene was the daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd.

Page 54 of the above reference gives more information on the associated pedigree.

At the moment there is a lot of published mis-information on this topic and it must be clarified.

RESPONSE — Preceding unsigned comment added by NetworkAuthority (talk • contribs) 09:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC) I have checked all the original source material that I can find in the Public Record Office and elsewhere, including the Ancient Correspondance relating to Wales on this matter. Edward's financial records give a very clear picture. There is no mention anywhere in these documents that Llywelyn ap Gruffudd had a legitimate or illigitimate daughter named Catherine. Yes, there is a Catherine daughter of a 'Llywelyn' mentioned in records of a much later period, but the earliest of these do not say which 'Llywelyn', and there were many men with this name.


 * I removed the sentence about Catherine ferch Llywelyn. It was known when Glyndwr's ancestry was being done, researchers tried to connect him to Llywelyn ap Gruffudd mistakenly instead of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. Catherine daughter of Llywelyn II is most likely fabricated and cannot be proven. Cltjames (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Without specific proof and genuine documentary evidence, it is unfair to include material on the Wikipedia site. BrynLlywelyn 12:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC) RESPONSE I am adding back in information on Catherine ferch Llywelyn. It seems fair to mention that she did exist and that sources claim her to be another daughter of Llywelyn "the last". RosePlantagenet 18:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

RESPONSE

I have seen your comments about Catherine being a daughter of 'Llywelyn'. But which Llywelyn? I have checked through all the original medieval documents relating to this matter that I can find, and there is no suggestion that Catherine is a daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and his wife Lady Eleanor de Montfort. Gwenllian born on or about 19 June 1282 at Garth Celyn, Aber Garth Celyn, Gwynedd, is well recorded as being their only child. Edward certainly believed this to be so, and would have found Catherine's whereabouts and sent her to Lincolnshire with the other female members of the family if she had been a legitimate child of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd.

I cannot see Catherine being an illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd being born shortly after his marriage to Eleanor. Everything points to Llywelyn ap Gruffudd being honest and honourable in every way, and certainly being a man of his word. All the Welsh sources that I can find show that without doubt.

Later heraldic records pick up on Catherine by way of the Owain Glyndwr link, but the earliest documents do not say which Llywelyn (of the many by that name) is her father. Someone well down the line made the connection, but I cannot find on what basis this was done apart from being for possible prestigious reasons.

If you have original proof of Catherine's parentage I would welcome to know what it is. BrynLlywelyn 10:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)