Talk:Gwynedd

2001 census and housing

 * This entire section is duplicated in the Llyn_peninsula article. This indicates that the content should be un-branched or merged with similar articles.  Fluidhomefront (talk) 16:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have now split this section as discussed on Talk:Llŷn_Peninsula. The content should not remain duplicated but for the sake of diplomacy I will leave the duplication for now.Fluidhomefront (talk) 16:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is just not acceptable. Whilst I would agree that the text on the subject both here and in the Llŷn article needs revising as it's not as coherent as it should be, the subject itself is entirely appropriate to this article, and the Llŷn one as well. Your proposal would in effect excise the topic from these two articles and bury it in an already long article on the Welsh language and an obscure new article that few people are likely to look for or read. The issue is dealt with in the article on Wales itself; if we were to follow your line of reasoning it would be conveniently excised (censored) from there as well. I shall bring the issue to the attention of the Wales wikipedia project so that other people's views can be heard. Please refrain from any move(s) or further edits here until this matter is discussed and resolved. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In order to keep the discussion of your controversial "merge" proposals together in one place, please comment at Talk:Llŷn Peninsula rather than here or Talk:Welsh language or Talk:Welsh Housing Crisis (pre-2009). Enaidmawr (talk) 00:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

School league table
I removed the 'league table' of school results because Estyn doesn't inspect schools annually, so the exam results cited won't necessarily be directly comparable. People may be aware that since 2001, the Assembly Government hasn't published individual school performance information. Information on individual schools is still available in prospectuses and governors’ annual reports, but adding them all together to produce a local league table may violate WP:SYNTH. Pondle (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

who gets to define 'full'?

 * ... the approximate territory of the Kingdom of Gwynedd at its fullest extent.

I changed fullest to greatest, because I'm skeptical of the implication that there exists an objective set of boundaries which, if reached, would have made Gwynedd "full". This was quickly reverted. —Tamfang (talk) 08:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It is normal usage and I assumed it was not normal usage in your locality. However there does exist an objective set of boundaries which were reached and made Gwynedd full, that kingdom's historical maximum limits - when it was at its fullest. A full moon fits in somehow doesn't it. Eddaido (talk) 09:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * When the moon is full, all of the visible part is lit: 'full' has a natural objective meaning, which can be defined without waiting until the moon ceases to exist. For a territory other than an island, is there some definition of "full" that is not – pardon the pun – circular?  Before Gwynedd reached its greatest extent, did anyone describe it as incomplete?  On the other hand, can you be sure that it never overflowed? —Tamfang (talk) 07:31, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gee! well . . . I think a full moon is regarded as having moments when it is considered to be at its fullest. That was my intended reference. Eddaido (talk) 12:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Please support the assertion of "normal usage". —Tamfang (talk) 20:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Eddaido adds: ''a kingdom, like a presidential career, waxes and wanes just like a moon. Fullest, it tells us more.'' A moon waxes to the same fullness (and then wanes to nothing) in a predictable cycle. Does a kingdom do that? (How do you measure the "fullness" of a career?) What more does "fullest" tell us that "greatest" does not? Again, I'd be willing to call a kingdom "full" (though such language raises the disturbing notion of manifest destiny) if it reaches a natural limit, as the moon does. So: what is the natural limit of Gwynedd? A river? Offa's Dyke? The North Sea? The Himalayas? Cape-to-Cairo? —Tamfang (talk) 20:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

You are concerned that the word fullest means only full and full as used with a glass of water, or if you want the geographic, puddle of water. Can I just say that I agree in principle with almost all I have seen you do though I'm blessed if I can follow why you trouble to go to the lengths you do—not at all my cup of tea. Occasionally your. . . enthusiasm just carries you away, this is an instance. By slicing to the irreducible minimum you also in this case slice off the great big good part - its like you're tossing out the baby instead of your usual bathwater if that makes sense to you.

Going back to presidencies and kingdoms. I think the analogy is sound. There is a definable moment when a full moon is at its fullest - probably, I don't know, when it is closest to the observer. Similarly there are moments in a US presidency when he, or maybe one day she, seems to be able to do no wrong, all demands on legislatures are met, all legislation just shoots through without quibble, acclaim for the good president is apparently almost universal. He/she will be remembered as a US Great and then it all begins to go wrong through no fault of the president (though it might be and it probably was not his fault he had such a good run until then). Kingdoms - the same. I now feel quite sure you will have understood what I say.

Now the kingdom of Gwynnedd must have had good times and bad (it is no longer), the writer of the article refers not only to its geographic extent but to its prosperity, its power, the happiness, the contentment of its people, its high culture, its generosity to neighbours, its. . . .  OK? But no you seem to want to limit the simple apt expression to its geographical limits and in this case that is to be simple-minded. That shouldn't be like you. Eddaido (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The Moon is fullest when the observer is nearest to the line between the centers of the Moon and Sun. (I thought all educated people knew that, though most would express it differently. Then I found that my mother confused phases with eclipses. One evening, I pointed out the half-moon on the meridian, and the setting sun, and invited her to consider the geometry; I think she gets it now.)
 * When I see nonsense on my watchlist, I oppose it, because I've little better to do. What's your reason?
 * Do you normally describe happiness or culture or generosity as "extent"? —Tamfang (talk) 11:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

PS. I'm a Grey (on your list and mine) and have grandchildren. But you've probably realized that. Eddaido (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You overestimate one facet of my intelligence. ;) —Tamfang (talk) 11:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Origin of name?
Does anyone know where the name of the county comes from? Is it anything to do with being "white or fair" (from gwyn)? Is it in any way related to the name Gwyneth, or is that just coincidence? Thrapper (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a section at Kingdom of Gwynedd that discusses this - it is referenced, but there's no certainty over the place name derivation. It seems to be related to (but may pre-date) the Roman name for the area, Venedotia.  Maybe some of that section should be copied into this article.  From that text, there doesn't seem to be a direct connection with the name Gwyneth.  However, over at Toponymical list of counties of the United Kingdom there is a suggestion that the meaning may derive from words meaning "the place of white-topped mountains".  That suggestion is unreferenced, and seems likely to me to be a dubious folk etymology - but I'm no expert.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

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Pronunciation
in this edit you change the IPA template to Welsh and then add the edsum If it is a Welsh word, then it shouldn't use the English IPA. Are we heading in the direction that only Welsh pronunciations are allowed? The answer to the second question is easiest. No, we are not saying only Welsh pronunciations are allowed. Gwynedd has one pronunciation in English or Welsh. Subtleties of dialect and accent are specifically not relevant here, and the broad IPA transliteration should be quite simple. We are not asserting Welsh only. We are saying that this is the pronunciation. The first question is a tad trickier. I left the IPA-en template in and removed the Welsh one. That template is for English words, but whether a Welsh county name in English, which has no other meaning other than as the Welsh place county name (and the historical kingdom) can be called an English word in any sense is unclear. I am neutral on which IPA template we use because IPA is IPA. I just left the lang parametr off so we didn't call a Welsh word and English one. In any case, I think the transliteration used should be the one I left in, because even in Welsh, it is /gw/. The /ɡu/ we are using on the Welsh version is unnecessary. W (double u) is a semi-vowel, and in unstressed position, the sound is represented as gw. That is how it is in this source for instance, and although that source talks about distinctive North Wales sounds, note that it is not the w that is distinctive in that dialect, but the voicing of the velar plosive itself. Such subtleties are deliberately ignored in the IPA we use on Wikipedia, so it is /ˈɡwɪnɛð/ whether we write it in English IPA or Welsh. I think the IPA-en template was fine. All we want to do is tell people how to pronounce the word, and that template had useful help text for each letter. Would you be okay putting it back? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:03, 21 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The Welsh IPA is likely more representative of the correct pronunciation than an English approximation, if we need to choose one, and how to guide readers to the one most correct. Doesn't make sense to guide them to a page on similar sounds in English, if we have to only have one. (And there should be a consistent approach to all Welsh-named articles) Prefer if both are here, allowing readers to choose the more correct or more practical pronunciation (abeit a small difference), with one in a footnote if it clutters, but dispute either is "unnecessary".
 * Gwynedd is undoubtedly a Welsh name, so at minimum it should have the Welsh pronunciation, unless English speakers wholly reject that pronunciation. Once again, prefer both are here, MOS:DUALPRON.  Dank Jae  12:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * What is the dual pronunciation? There is only one pronunciation, isn't there? Also, on IPA, tehre is not really a Welsh IPA and English IPA at all. IPA is IPA, The guides merely provide additional notes about how to make the sounds that are represented in the template subset. The English IPA subset provides all the sounds and hints for the sounds that we need for Gwynedd. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Have done a minor tweak to the Welsh IPA by changing [ɡwɪn] to [ɡwɨn] as [ɨ] is more likely to be used in North Wales than [ɪ] as Help:IPA/Welsh seems to indicate. I had initially changed it back to showing a diphthong as "wy" usually represents a diphthong in most Welsh words, but partially reverted it to the current IPA version after reading the "Predicting vowel length from orthography" in the Welsh orthography article. And I do think if there are good sources to support it, then there's no reason why an English IPA can't be added alongside the Welsh IPA, otherwise if most people here support just the Welsh IPA, then I am happy with just the Welsh IPA. Broman178 (talk) 13:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)