Talk:Gymnasium (school)

Plural of Gymnasium
I would suggest that the plural of gymnasium should be gymnasia in this article and in any writing on the continental equivalent of grammar schools. It is morphologically correct, for one thing, gymnasiums looks rather ugly and only serves to confuse the reader with places of physical exercise, for which the latter form is universally employed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.59.159 (talk) 18:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Matura
In the Netherlands, there is no such thing as a matura or abitur. At the end of 6 years there's only a normal set of exams, just like other school types. Also, the only difference between a gymnasium and an atheneum (the two varieties of VWO (preparatory scientific education)) is that in gymnasium Latin and Greek (ancient that is) are taught. I could add this, but I'm not sure where to put it and where to move the abitur/matura info to. Is that specific to Germanic countries? -- Kimiko 20:25 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

Can anyone establish precisely where these terms are used? The only article we have on the Matura is about Austria. It was at Matura (Austria), but since there was nothing at Matura, I moved it there. If the term is also used in other places, the page can be moved back and a disambiguation page put at Matura. Having that page empty is not sensible... -- Oliver P. 14:20 26 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Sweden abolished the special examinations of the secondary education in the 1960s. Until that time it was refered to as "Gymnasieexamen". "Matura" and "Abitur" are German language terms. -- Mic 14:50 26 May 2003 (UTC)


 * I did the Matura in Austria and never heard anyone call it Reifeprüfung so I changed it. --80.110.75.104


 * The word Matura is also used elsewhere, but in the same meaning I guess. --Shallot

Correct. The term used in the Netherlands, I believe, is studentsexamen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.59.159 (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Add freely Serbia and Montenegro - 4 years, starting at 14/15, ending with matura.

saigon_from_europe


 * Doesn't Matura mean the exams after the school anyway? What is "a normal set of exams"? Thats Matura in my vocabulary... standardised. Guess I am missing something here= --Neikius (talk) 12:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Matura in Serbia
 * There are a few errors in Former Yugoslavia part of the article, or at least those parts pertaining to Serbia. Matura in Gymnasiums is a 3 part test consisting of writing an essay in Serbian, math or translating short text from a foreign language and a short paper relating to one of the subjects. The subjects are chosen by the student, and the teaching staff makes questions and grade each part of matura. This is a final exam and prerequisite to graduating. It is not used as an entry exam for university, as each one has it's own entry exam, and may also take into account the grade averages. Mala matura (little, small matura) is the final exam for elementary schools, and along whit grade average from 6th to 8th grade serves as entry exam for most high schools, gymnasiums included. Mala matura, unlike matura, is standardized. Gymnasiums focus more on general, overall education, while technical and vocational schools focus more on a specific area. Technical school, for example, may offer better base for a technical college then gymnasium. A student may enroll in university after finishing any four-year high school (there are also some high schools which last 3 years).

Katarina — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.87.220.203 (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Gymnasium in Denmark
Gymnasium differs from High School and Secondary school. As far as I've understood, secondary school finishes fundamental school in many countries, and it this definitely not the case with the gymnasium in Denmark. Gymnasium prepares pupils for being students, to study in universities, but you can finish school without going to the gymnasium. I find a merge inappropriate.


 * Please see my rationale at Talk:Secondary education. Basicly, each country has a unique education system. If Danish gymnasium is somehow different from American high school, it doesn't mean we can't compare them both under Secondary education. The specifics are already available at Education in Denmark, Education in the United States, Secondary education in Denmark, Secondary education in the United States. --TuukkaH 09:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, you don't have to "pass a test" to enter the gymnasium. Your primary school teacher just has to declare you fit for it. --dllu 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I did have to pass a test to get into gymnasium. (Look at Just a bit of Information on this page.) You have to get a high enough score on your CITO test. You can only go to gymnasium if your teachers give you VWO advice and you score above 545. (The maximum score being 550.) Paleoblues--Paleoblues (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But if he doesn't declare you fit for it, you have to pass a test. 62.66.189.118 15:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

No, for the test that all primary schools in the Netherlands do (the CITO) you have to get above 545 and get VWO advice. Paleoblues--Paleoblues--Paleoblues (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Lycée, liceum, grammar school, etc.
Are there any significant differences between the Gymnasium and the above terms used in other countries? If it's simply a difference of terminology for a selective secondary school with a university-preparatory, humanistic course of study generally concluded with an all-important exam, then I would suggest we combine all the above into one article that might also embrace, for example, magnet schools in the US, and other innovations in countries where there is some resistance to selectivity. --ProhibitOnions 13:21, 2005 May 22 (UTC)

Polish Gimnazjum, is not really a Gymnasium - it is a type of middle school, allowing to enter liceum or technikum. exe 09:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

High school
I thought that these schools were usually referred to as "high school" in English. Is there much difference anyway? Looking at the high school article, the term means many slightly different types of schools, many of which seem same as some in this article. Also, I don't know about other countries, but at least in Finland studying Greek or Latin is not normal in these schools. FWIW, the common translation to English in use in Finland is "high school" (sometimes "upper secondary school"). If there's no clear-cut difference, then maybe these articles should be merged? Note that upper secondary school redirects to high school, and even though the article says that the term refers to compulsory education, Japanese "high schools" are included and they certainly are not compulsory. AFAIK the Japanese and Finnish systems are almost the same, and I can't see why on earth they are in separate articles. 130.233.22.111 00:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the best international term for gymnasium would be 'prepatory school', they have them in the US too, these schools are specifically designed to get childeren an education they need to join university. 198.184.231.254 (talk) 12:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Links
I think it would be better if in the list of countries the liks were leading not to the countries' articles, but to the education articles (e.g. Education in Greece). Alensha 23:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that and did it for Greece! --Anastasios 14:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

German Bias
There is a German bias in the opening section, which gives details only relevant to German Gymnasia. Obviously, in other countries with Gymnasia such as the Netherlands and Czech Republic, these don't apply. --JamesTheNumberless 12:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

United States
I'm not sure about outside the states but, where I live, Gymnasium has always been used to refer to a room meant for physical education. I don't know how common that is but maybe it should be mentioned somewhere. In lower grades we would have a gym class where we would play sports and excersize. Until reading this article I never even considered thinking of an entire school as a Gymnasium.
 * see gym --Cjsk 06:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's already mentioned here: Gymnasium. --32X 22:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a life outside the USA....believe it or not......

different names in Germany
The text asserts that in Germany the terms "Realgymnasium", "Oberrealschule" and "Oberschule" are commonly used. I'm a German and visited a Gymnasium but have never heard of these names before. Any school that leads to the Abitur is called a "Gymnasium", no matter what kind of education (humanistic, mathematical, etc) is being taught there.--84.56.246.170 14:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I second that, there is no "Realgymnasium", "Oberrealschule" or "Oberschule". Just Gymnasium. FreddyE 09:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While the first two aren't known to me either, the last one is a typical East-German term. Since POS (Polytechnische Oberschule) is the equivalent to a standard 10 years "Realschule" but EOS (Erweiterte Oberschule) being a Gymnasium, I wouldn't use Oberschule as an equivalent for Gymnasium. --32X 22:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed that part now, since its totally wrong. FreddyE 10:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The German Wik talks about Realgymnasiums, and a Google search turns up a number of schools with that word in their names. Kdammers (talk) 06:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Realschule is the next best school, called thus because it presumably teaches real things (as opposed to the Gymnasium theoreticism...). Oberschule is not GDR-restricted, but traditionally a synonym for Gymnasium (previously, a collective term for all the schools now called Gymnasium), which is, perhaps, outdated. Gymnasium, historically, were only the humanist (Latin/English/Greek) and then also the musical (then called "German") forms of gymnasium. The Latin/English/French version was once called the Realgymnasium (now the extant-languages gymnasium), the Latin/English/additional-science version was once called the Oberrealschule (now the scientific-technologic gymnasium). There are also brances for additional economny and for additional social studies accompanied by housekeeping, the latter once restricted to (and still heavily populated with) girls and called the Lyzeum. But all conferred the Abitur (although you need a Latinum and a Graecum, i. e. a diploma of having had Latin or Greek, for some studies, and used to need them for more).--2001:4CA0:0:FE00:200:5EFE:81BB:D254 (talk) 15:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Merge?
Should the "gymnasium (school)" article be merged into "secondary education" totally?


 * Keep. There is too much detail to merge, especially considering the details about nearly 30 nations with gymnasium schools.  Similarly, I would have separate articles for American "elementary school" versus "high school" due to the details about high school course curricula, football teams, and clubs in the high-school culture, versus the details about recess and playgrounds at many American elementary schools.  Also, each article could list famous schools in the category, such as "Hollywood High School" (in California) or "Clear Lake High School" (in Houston) by keeping the extensive details in separate articles.


 * Also, it seems that different countries have a very different outlook to what gymnasium is. If we look at ages: some countries 10-14, some 11-15, some 16-19. Thats a very different school! This part in the "School structure" paragraph (from the start of the article) seems quite wrong in the light of this: "The gymnasium is a secondary school which prepares the student for higher education at a university. They are thus meant for the more academically-minded students, who are sifted out at about the age of 10–13. In addition to the usual curriculum, students of a gymnasium often study Latin and Ancient Greek." How can gymnasium be "secondary school"? If you go there from 16-19 in one country and 10-14. The problem I see is that "secondary school" does not mean only "the second school you go to", but has a special meaning in certain countries. Usually implying the age of its participants, while the gymnasium is not. --Neikius (talk) 12:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Brazil
The line about Brazil seems peculiar. E.g. what does recurses mean? --Etxrge 11:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> File 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> File 2

Just a bit of information.
I live in the Netherlands and go to the Vossius Gymnasium (one of the four in Amsterdam, Barlaeus, Ignatius & the 4e Gymnasium). I am in the first class and thought it might have some meaning to you if I would name the subjects we get.

Subjects 1st class Vossisu Gymnasium:

Latin - Greek - Geography - French - Informatica (Computers) - Biology - Mathematics - Technique - Art - PE - English - Dutch - Homework Class (Semi Optional, Optional) - Learning Class (Teaches us how to handle are homework and how High School works.) - Extra French (Optional) - Extra Latin (Optional) - Help French (Semi Optional) - Help Latin (Semi Optional) - Help Dutch (Semi Optional) - History - Culture History

Paleoblues--Paleoblues (talk) 17:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Following this example, i'll post some information about classes at "Het Barlaeus Gymnasium": (I'll post the dutch names and Abbreviations as well) 1st class:

Latin (LA; Latijn) - French (FR; Frans) - Dutch (NL; Nederlands) - English (EN; Engels) - Technique (TN; Techniek) (basically: Making simple machines and manquetes) - Art (Beeld; Beeldende Vorming) - P.E. (L.O.; Lichamelijke Opvoeding) - Music (MUZ; Muziek) - History (GS; Geschiedenis) - Geography (AK; Aardrijkskunde) - Math (WI; Wiskunde) - Biology (BI; Biologie)

2nd class:

Latin (LA; Latijn) - Greek (GR; Grieks) - German (DU; Duits) - French (FR; Frans) - Dutch (NL; Nederlands) - English (EN; Engels) - Drawing (TE; Tekenen) - P.E. (L.O.; Lichamelijke Opvoeding) - Math (WI; Wiskunde) - Phyisics (NA; Natuurkunde) - Geography (AK; Aardrijkskunde) - Biology (BI; Biologie) - History (GS; Geschiedenis)

I would post the 3rd class as well, but I don't know what all of the abbreviations stand for. Same goes for the 4th, 5th, and 6th classes, which at the same time gets too confusing for my poor self to handle. 83.163.27.139 (talk) 18:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Not only preparing for studies in sweden
This article says that a gymnasium is preparing for university studies. For sweden, at least, this is far from true. There are several "programs" that every student is able to choose among, and some of these (more specifically, the natural science program, the social studies program and partly the technical program) are indeed "study preparing".

Though there are a lot of other programs, focused on getting a job, as soon as you graduate. For example there is a building program, a vehicle program, a cook program, etc. This is just a natural sequel to primary school. Some choose to do a lot of studies, others choose to go for a job directly.. Is this the same in other countries in europe too, or is it only sweden with this kind of system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.211.81.151 (talk) 21:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Germany
I'm confused; the article states that a gymnasium is essentially analogous to a preparatory school and that the former are common throughout Germany, yet Article 7, Section 6 of the German constitution explicitly abolishes the latter. Jdtapaboc (talk) 20:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's an odd translation to the American ear -- "prep school" always means "college prep school" in America -- but I'm not sure what phrase would be better: preschool, maybe, except that preschool conjures up four year olds, and this rule is about seven year olds.  The banned "prep schools" (Vorschule) were expensive private elementary schools from before the first world war.  They featured an intensive academic program and were designed to give wealthy kids an advantage in admission to a gymnasium (not to university).  The rule relates to the "segregation of pupils according to the means of their parents" clause above it.  Basically, it's intended to ensure that all children in Germany have the same educational opportunities for the first four years.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification. This should probably be worked into the article somehow. Jdtapaboc (talk) 21:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

"pubils" vs "students"
I suppose this article was at least in part written by non-native speakers of English. I am also not a native speaker, but my experience is that the term "pupils" is most commonly used in the context of primary education (elementary school or even kindergarten), wheras the term "students" is used in the context of secondary education and beyond. Is this perception correct, or perhaps limited to American English? Anyway, if "pupils" is not the appropriate word for students at a gymnasium, it should be replaced with "students". --80.145.115.207 (talk) 15:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I can explain this: Its a translation problem I think. In german we only use the word "Schueler" for both instances. "students" is a false friend to the german word "Studenten" (wich means people who go to university). FreddyE (talk) 08:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The word pupil is not much used in modern American English. It feels somewhat archaic and perhaps a bit formal, although it is not so old as to have completely fallen out of use.  Pupil is not wrong:  it is uncommon.  Unlike the German word, anyone who attends any school is correctly called a student in English.  A musician teaching a three-year-old child will refer to that child as a student.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The UK part at the bottom.
True Grammar Schools aren't exclusive to NI, the English Counties of Kent and Lincolnshire also retained them along with other smaller areas smaller than counties. Kent has a simillar population to NI (1.6m and 1.7m respectively) so I think It should be mentioned.(Morcus (talk) 01:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC))

Pronunciation
The opening of the article mentions that "gymnasium" is "pronounced with IPA: [ɡ-] in several languages". But what's the English pronunciation? This is, after all, the English Wikipedia. Pronunciations in other languages can be given in the article for those other languages. Julesd 15:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The "English" pronunciation is unimportant, or perhaps non-existent is the better word, because no English-speaking countries use this word to describe any of their schools. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Julesd. Either gymnasium is an English word, in which case it must certainly have an English pronounciation. Or it is not - in this case this article must be deleted (or merged into "grammar school" or whatever is the proper English translation).--Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that a merge would be accurate. There seem to be some differences between the systems (indeed, differences between systems in each country that claim to be related and use the same name).  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> File %d

Religious education
It is really true. Religious education/ethics is compulsatory for students visiting a Gymnasium. However students are allowed to choose from a number of courses. At my former gymnasium we were allowed to choose between protestant religious education, catholic religious education, jewish religious education and ethics. People who could identify with none of this (like one muslim classmate) had to write a note why their concience would not allow them to visit one of this courses, why the could not attend religious education. She was gratnted a leave of absence then. I think religious education is only compulsatory for Gymnasien, but not for Hauptschulen, Realschulen or comprehensive schools in Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.201.83.191 (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It is compulsory for any schools. Also, you cannot choose. You go to your confession's course. If there is none, you go to ethics. You may volunteer for one of the courses in that case. You may conscientiously object the course (and then go to ethics, or volunteer for another). But you cannot choose primarily. Also it's compulsory everywhere in first and secondary education. (I'm not so sure about the Berufsschule, but I guess there too.)
 * I wonder why that is so wondrous to you (as I deduce from your first sentence). --2001:4CA0:0:FE00:200:5EFE:81BB:D254 (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Religious Education again
87.159.105.93 was totally right to point out a person does not have to study religious education. He may choose to study ethics instead. But according to what I know and also according to the source a person may not choose to study neither of the subjects. It compulsory to study one of that classes. I changed 87.159.105.93's edits a little bit, to make this clearer.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 14:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Former Yugoslavia
This term is not politically correct. By such terminology we can start using the terms like Former Nazi Germany or Former Turkish empire or Former Faschist Italy to simplify when referring to territories that these historic countries once covered. This is way too much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.107.154 (talk) 19:07, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * For me it does not matter that there write Former Yugoslavia. But if for some people for some reason this sounds provocative we can with the same real meaning use term Western Balkans.--MirkoS18 (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Split between Gymnasium and Grammar school articles
Because this article covers a diversity of systems similar to grammar schools in the UK as well as other types of school, its content should be split and merged into Gymnasium, which is a disambiguation and Grammar school article. Sarcelles (talk) 18:41, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Gymnasium is NOT academics!
This is a clear example of how horrid wikipedia is that they do not know basic English words. A "gymnasium" is a place to play sports. Has absolutely no relation to academics. DUH! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.155.130.147 (talk) 23:31, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The very first line in the arrticle: "This article is about the type of school. For the indoor sports facility, see Gym." You may also want to get a historical perspective on the use of the word by reading Gymnasium (ancient Greece). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:35, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

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Denmark
This article now has two sections on the gymnasium in Denmark, one under Nordic & Baltic countries, and a new seperate section titled Denmark. They contain slightly different info, e.g. the latter is missing EUX. --Klausok (talk) 06:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

"School structure"
Much of the information in this section does not apply generally and needs to be moved to the relevant country sections. Particularly: __Gamren (talk) 10:53, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "They are thus meant for the more academically minded students, who are sifted out at about the age of 10–13" (emphasis mine)
 * "physical education and religion or ethics are compulsory, even in non-denominational schools which are prevalent. For example, the German constitution guarantees the separation of church and state, so although religion or ethics classes are compulsory, students may choose to study a specific religion or none at all."

Wonky wording...
We have the statement that gymnasia are to be found in "many countries of central, north, eastern, and south Europe". A pretty unwieldy sentence that suggests they don't exist in the western end of the continent. This would already be prime for replacement with an easier to read statement along the lines of "many European countries, excepting those in the west"...

...but, a skim through the "list of countries with gymnasiums" shows they exist in the Netherlands, Switzerland (in fact they're two of the primary examples), Belgium, France (under a different name) and Luxembourg, all of which count as "west" (or north-west, centre-west) to my mind, and three of them border the Atlantic and/or North Sea (with the Atlantic being a mere couple of hours' sailing at worst).

The only countries that I looked for which aren't on the list are Spain, Portugal, Andorra and Monaco. So would it maybe be better changed to something like "many European counties, other than Iberia"? It seems like all compass points are well represented other than the south-west, so exhaustively reeling off a list of where gymnasia are found is silly and needlessly confusing/rambling, when a shorter sentence that merely states Europe as a whole with a single particular exclusion would work better as a readable and understandable summary. 80.189.129.133 (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Sweden admission
I'm proposing to add or atleast mention some paragraphs about the different directions you can take within the Swedish gymnasium, also that an admission program is used.81.234.225.197 (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Page Move Suggestion
The name of the page, Gymnasium (school), really bugs me. Can we please move this page to Gymnasium (School)? – SeaDragon1 (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:NCDAB: "To conform to the naming conventions, the phrase in parentheses should be treated just as any other word in a title: normally lowercase ..." Doremo (talk) 03:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)