Talk:Gypsy Rose Lee/Archive 1

Mother
The article says:
 * ...their mother, who had opened a lesbian boardinghouse ...

What on earth is a lesbian boardinghouse? A boarding house is your moms house! Dominus 14:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Reply: A lesbian boardinghouse is a rooming house that provides meals for homosexual women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.158.136 (talk) 06:27, 2 April 2004 (UTC)

Tagged
I've tagged this article for cleanup, because it seems to contain a very roundabout recounting of information that's far from useful and even farther from clear. Someone who knows more about Gypsy Rose Lee, or even just someone who can donate the time and effort, would be a great help in smoothing out this article's rougher edges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WesternActor (talk • contribs) 21:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Cuppa Rosie anyone?
Is this the Rosie Lee who gave rise to the rhyming slang expression for tea? If so, I think it deserves a mention - she is famous in the UK even though nobody knows who she was. If not, the rhyming slang article needs editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HairyDan (talk • contribs) 23:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The mystery novels
Just to note that it's authoritatively demonstrated that these two novels were indeed written by Craig Rice; the citation is from the most authoritative reference book around. Accounting4Taste 02:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It's true that Hubin's book is authoritative, of that I have no doubt, but this is about to become one of those Mankiewicz vs. Welles type of debates that is best understood through a compromise of mutual ignorance (in that both sides only know half the truth). If you read "Februrary House" by Sherill Tippins - a well-researched book in its own right- it spends a great deal of chapters explaining Gypsy's extensive writing process under the tutelage of George Davis. The G-String Murders was not merely "suggested" by Gypsy to Rice. The closest we can really assume is that Rice revised a novel that was mostly finished anyway. Suggesting that Rice completely ghost-wrote the novel is suggesting that Gyspsy had no literary skills of her own. On the contrary, she was more equipped than most people to write a novel. There was never any pretension that it was to be a great work of art, and to suggest that she couldn't pull it off on her own is ridiculous. Her shecule at the time of its publication (she was at the height of her fame) may have accounted for her seeking out professional advice, however. As if living in a house with W.H. Auden, Carson McCullers, George Davis and Klaus Mann and a number of connections at Harper's Bazaar weren't enough. PLUS, she did take nearly a year off her work schedule to work on the darn thing! I'm going to suggest that this be re-written to reflect this. Also, (and I'm afraid this will lead to a backlash of deleting my corrections) I put a citation need tag on the stub for "The G-String Murders" in hopes that someone will change that article as well. Despite it's being written as fact in Hubin's invaluable (for fans of detective fiction)bibliography it really shouldn't be over-simplified so. And it's worthy of further research. I mean, YES, a citation is provided, but that's only half the story. Wellesradio 19:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Wellesradio


 * This is certainly an interesting suggestion and one that had not previously come to my attention. My memory is not serving me well, but I seem to recall an advertisement for the novel, or perhaps a photo as part of a magazine piece, that showed Ms. Lee working away at a typewriter; I had assumed it was in the nature of a publicity stunt.  It is my understanding that Rice wrote 100% of the novel that was published as by George Sanders, but that was undemanding in terms of a specialized background.  It seems nearly certain to me that Ms. Lee had considerable input into the book because of the wealth of detail that could only have been garnered from someone who had lived in the milieu.  I would not object to the article stating that they wrote it together, but as someone who's very familiar with Craig Rice's work, there is a certain devil-may-care craziness about the novel that is very Craig Rice-ish.  I'll look into this further as best I can and comment when I have more information. Accounting4Taste 20:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Incoherent sentence in article needs straightening out
"Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister June Havoc continued to get demands for money from their mother, who had opened a boardinghouse for women in a 10-room apartment on West End Avenue in New York City, the property rented for her by Gypsy and a farm in Highland Mills, New York."

If I felt sure that I understood what the author was trying to say, I would correct it myself, but I don't. Maybe it means that Gypsy rented not only the boardinghouse but also the farm for Rose?? Nandt1 (talk) 12:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

PS Based on the Historylink, it does seem that Rose had two properties, the boardinghouse and a farm, so I've myself edited the sentence to make that a bit clearer. Whether Gypsy rented both for Rose or only the boardinghouse is not clear to me so I have left it as referring only to the boardinghouse. I see that Historylink refers to the boardinghouse as a lesbian establishment, which this article used to do but no longer does so. I don't want to reinstate that here, in case the other link got it from here in the first place. Does someone have a solid source that would clarify that issue?Nandt1 (talk) 12:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency in articles; what did Rose die from?
The article on Gypsy Rose Lee states she died of lung cancer, but the article on her sister, June Havoc, states Gypsy died of colon cancer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.189.37 (talk) 14:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Gypsy Rose Lee died of lung cancer. Her and June Havoc's mother, Rose Thompson Hovick, died of colorectal cancer. Jim Michael (talk) 01:59, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Gypsy Rose Lee's age?
The article says:

"Gypsy Rose Lee (also known as Rose Louise Hovick and Louise Hovick) (February 9, 1914 - April 26, 1970)" and "In 1970, she died in Los Angeles, California, at the age of 59"

Either she is born in 1914 and died at the age of 56 or she is born in 1911. I thought I knew the answer but I can see that people do not agree on whether she is born in 1911 or 1914.

If you read Gypsy: a memoir, she talks about her mother tampering with Gypsy and her sister's birth records to make them old enough to play in Canada. She supposedly replaced the original documents with very good forgeries. So she was probably actually born on the later date, 1914, and so died at 56.

I changed the age of death to 56 because if we're gonna use 1914 as the birth year, than math dictates she died at 56. It seemed silly to use two ages of death. I think it's worth mentioning in the article that is some ambiguity about the whole issue. Just say something about how in Gypsy: A Memoir it gives 1914 as the most likely birth year.--DarshaAssant 03:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The article says that June was a) born "several years" after Gypsy (i.e., after 1911 or 1914), b) got married at 16, c) later had a child, in 1930. Unless we assume the 1911 birthdate is correct and that June was born in 1914, at least one of these facts is incorrect. Can anyone who's more knowledgeable about the subject reconcile them? --Deusnoctum 20:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK. I think I have it (or maybe not, but I'm giving it a try).


 * Gypsy has a February birthday; June's is in November. If they were born two calendar years apart, they'd actually have almost a three year age difference, which would account for the "several years." So 1914 and 1916 as birthdates for Gypsy and June would work.


 * As per DarshaAssant's comment above, it's right on. In Gypsy's memoir, she does mention that her mother had forged documents made for June, to try to circumvent the child labor and customs laws. The magic age needed in Canada was 12. June was 9 at the time, so forged documents were made in Vancouver. According to Gypsy, Mama Rose actually managed to get the forgery, which advanced June's age by three years, into the Public Records office and steal the original birth certificate. So anyone attempting to verify June's age would actually come up with the forgery and not the original records. There's no mention of a forgery being made for Gypsy, but that makes sense--if June were 9, Gypsy would have been 12, and would have been fine with her legal documents. The other forged documents were vaccination certificates for Rose's dogs.


 * June eloped with Bobby in 1929. She was 12 for most of the year, but her legal age would have been 15 and she would have turned 16 at the end of the year. If she were seeking to marry, she would have undoubtedly used the 1913 birthdate in court, which would account for being "married at 16". Having a child in 1930 would mean she became a mother at age 13/14--wow, but it's possible.DanielEng 09:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Some more data relative to the Gypsy Rose Lee birth year: There was a passport application on Ancestry.com for Rose Elizabeth Hovick (dated Feb 12, 1925). Information from that passport: People listed as accompanying her:
 * Rose Louise, born in Everett, Washington on January 8, 1908
 * Ellen June, born in Seattle, Washington on November 8, 1910

The passport says that she was divorced but it lists the name of her husband as John O. Hovick. It seems to say that they were married in May of 1907. The birth locations listed on the passport application are also at variance with the locations listed in Wikipedia for Rose Louise and Ellen June

The ancestry.com site requires a fee, however if somebody would like me to email an image of the passport application, just send a request to davefoc@gmail.com.

I would have posted the image into Wikimedia, but I was concerned about copyright issues. The document itself is a government document that is undoubtedly in the public domain, but I'm not sure Ancestry.com's image of the document is in the public domain.

I noticed in poking around the web that Gypsy's birth year is 1914 on her tombstone.

Davefoc (talk) 21:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The birth date listed in the article is probably wrong
The birth date listed in the article for Gypsy Rose Lee (January 9, 1914) is almost certainly wrong. Gypsy Rose Lee was the older sister of June Havoc (this seems to be an issue not in dispute). So if June was born in 1913 Gypsy was born before then. Noralee Frankel the author of Stripping Gypsy discusses the birth date of Gypsy and June on pages 3 & 4 of her book and concludes with these two sentences: "To add to the confusion, Rose registered Gypsy for school in 1916 using the name Rose Louise and a birth date of January 9, 1911. Such evidence strongly suggests Gypsy was born in 1911." from: http://books.google.com/books?id=O2xxhFcOXfwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=stripping+gypsy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wyn0Togc5NGIAuXjmIAN&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stripping%20gypsy&f=false

June Havoc appeared in a short film, On the Jump, that starred Harold Lloyd in 1918. This is a link to a YouTube video of a small part of that video that features June Havoc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dFFFfPa0Mo It is clear from that video that June Havoc is substantially older than 2 years which eliminates 1916 as a possible birth date for June. The age of the girl in the video looks to be about 5 or 6 which is consistent with either the 1912 or 1913 Birth dates most commonly documented for June. Since Gypsy was about two years older than June this puts the birth date of Gypsy in about 1911 which is consistent with Noralee Frankel's conclusion about her birth year.

Annette Lloyd, the author of several books on Harold Lloyd (including most recently, Magic in a pair of Horn-rimmed Glasses) provided me with this information via an email which provides further evidence that the birth year of June is about 1913.
 * June does not appear in the extant versions of "Hey There" although she was on the payroll ledger for the film. So it isn't possible to assess the credibility of June's birth year based on what she looks like in "Hey There".
 * June does appear in the Harold Lloyd 1918 film, "On the Jump" and Annette Lloyd feels that June's apparent age in that film is very consistent with a birth year of 1913 for June.

The current version of the June Havoc Wikipedia article lists June's birth date as November 8, 1912. I think that might be right. It is consistent with June being about two years younger than Gypsy if Gypsy was born on January 9, 1911 which is the date that Noralee Frankel suggests. --Davefoc (talk) 07:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Her date of birth is difficult to determine definitively. Just spotted this post and don't really have time to investigate 'til perhaps next week, if this issue can wait a few more days? RashersTierney (talk) 10:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's a link to a passport application for Rose Hovick in 1925 in which she lists the ages and birth locations of her children: https://picasaweb.google.com/109328117361721097794/MiscImages02#5689411595319535426 I would not consider this definitive evidence of the ages or the birth locations since Rose seems to have lied about that more than once, but it does provide evidence that Gypsy was older than June and it provides a divorce date of August 20, 1915 for Rose which makes a birth date for June as late as November 1916 unlikely. --Davefoc (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC) 64.222.239.176 changed the date of birth in the article to 9 January 1911. I agree with the change and barring any future discussion this issue is closed. --Davefoc (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)