Talk:Gypsy punk

Comments
Which is funny, since Gogol Bordello isn't punk. -Drevius

Gogol Bordello is a mix of punk rock with traditional Gypsy music. The punk influence is fairly obvious, especially on their latest album. --Every Dog&#39;s Day 20:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Gogol Bordello isn't punk, it's Gipsy punk RomanyChaj

Gogol Bordello DID NOT invent Gypsy Punk, it was originated in Europe back in the 80's when bands started to mix gypsy roots with punk attitude.

this track is definitely Gypsy Punk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0n74z18cEA

And it's 20years 0ld !!!!!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.161.67 (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

On that vague word "Gypsy"
Something more definite than "gypsy music" should really be said here. Roma music varies nearly as widely geographically as the folk music of the more "settled" residents of those areas. I get the impression Gogol Bordello is focused on a Romanian sound, but I'm no expert on the band. Good questions to ask would be relating gypsy punk to any other genres connected with Roma musicians, like manele.

Also, the other bands identified: do they also describe themselves as gypsy punk or do they use other terms? If GB are the only ones, this article may as well redirect. Bjart 08:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of Gypsies aren't afraid to be called Gipsy. Thats'n not a bad word if only you don't hate us. GB always use the word Gipsy when say about music styles. RomanyChaj

Neologism
This doesn't seem like a valid genre term at all. There seems to be a line of thought going around on Wikipedia that if a word appears before the word "punk" then it denotes a genre. Not only is that not true, but this article is based upon a misreading of the source. He doesn't call his music "gypsy punk", but "gypsy punk cabaret". And artists themselves are not considered reliable sources for their genre classification because of such terminology like this. I'd strongly suggest this page be nominated for deletion. WesleyDodds 22:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Might I suggest a redirect to the Gogol page? Bjart 20:31, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds fine by me. WesleyDodds 06:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The redirect Idea might be good. I certainly think it would be better than merging the Gogol Bordello Article with Gypsy Punk. that seems like we're just making it a footnote. it's an article about a band.Captainstoat 21:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I know several young Gypsy punk groups in Russia. I think that's a new genre. RomanyChaj
 * I think it should be a sub-genre of folk punkmtmoore321 —Preceding undated comment added 22:41, 11 November 2011 (UTC).

bla
gypsy punk is used by many that are not quite as familiar with this type of music to refer to music that has similar qualities. By merging the two pages or redirecting gypsy punk to gogol's page, you're basically telling people that gogol bordello is the definitive band/sound for gypsy punk. I think that's quite unfair to many musicians that would like to gain exposure for this type of thing even if there are more accurate or correct classifications. Just my 2 cents.gerstle 17:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is many things, but it's not a music recomendation service. If the term is being used outside of the Gogol context, we need good references to back up the article's existence, the definition given, and each artist included. Take a look at Dark cabaret and its talk page if you want to see what being too loose can do to an article. Bjart 01:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I see your point, but i don't necessarily agree that by accurately reflecting the way people are using a term we are recommending music. I have seen the term gypsy punk in a recent rolling stones article where they highlighted 3 or 4 cd's by different bands (no gogol bordello) and reviewed them.  I can't find the article online, but two of the cd's reviewed can be found here: Beirut and Devotchka.  Also, a new york times article  from 2005 entitled "The Rise of Gypsy Punkers" kind of gave gogol bordello the role of the fathers of gypsy punk; however, other bands fitting this description are also given props (Slavic Soul Party!, Romashka, the Hungry March Band and Guignol).  While being described as a 'russian ska band', i would also loosely include Leningrad as gypsy punk.  gerstle 17:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Very good points. That's what we've been asking for. I'll try to dig up some interviews to see if anyone's been given a chance to respond to the genre label. I can imagine Devotchka having a laugh about it. Bjart 21:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

i disagree. wikipedia should keep these two articles separate, because in time maybe there will be other bands classed as gypsy punk

I also disagree with the suggestion to merge the pages. It seems like there are two separate points of contention here: 1) whether gypsy punk is a legitimate term for musical classification and 2) whether Gogol Bordello is the only/the only definitive band with a gypsy punk sound. And I don't believe that #2 is true to the extent that it would need to be true for these articles to be merged. Thatotter 02:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)thatotter
 * It definitely isn't. Gogol Bordello, while one of the few (if currently) bands that emulates gypsy punk and has also gained popularity in the past few years, there are multiple other bands in the scene. If Spin was able to push out an article naming gypsy punk the Scene of the Year (which of course I can't find online), then there is no way that Wikipedia should be able to consider Gogol Bordello and gypsy punk as one and the same. Amphytrite 21:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Removing the merge notice. Thanks guys. If anyone can get ahold of the spin article who has the initiative, please update the gypsy punk article. It's needs some good indication that there's a scene, rather than just a grouping of bands who may not even listen to each other. Bjart 00:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey Guys, did you ever heard about a french Band, "Los Carayos", they were really the beginners of this kind of music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z1b56odOeg

Who invented the genre name?
In 2001, I discovered a Swedish group called URGA. Their music was described as "sigøynerpunk" in Norwegian which translates to gypsy punk. I do not know who came up with the name for the genre, but I doubt that it was first phrased in the interview sited in this article. It may be that the interview was the first time it was mentioned in the mainstream press. 195.159.201.103 23:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The appelation Gypsy Punks was use in France in the late 1980's to qualify Rock Band mixing Punk Rock with Gypsy music... The best example will be Les Négresses Vertes, their album Mlah (1989) is definitely GYPSY PUNK. I don't think Eugene Hütz invented the apelation!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.211.47 (talk) 12:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Extra Action Marching Band
Why is that link there? I fail to see a relationship explained on either page. Verdatum 14:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, deleted it Verdatum 15:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Beirut and Alamaailman Vasarat offshoots of Zabranjeno Pušenje?
Beirut and Alamaailman Vasarat are described as "offshoots" of Zabranjeno Pušenje. Why those two? Beirut is an American group, and Alamaailman a Finnish group; neither shares members with the Yugoslavian Zabranjeno. If offshoot is meant to imply that these two groups were inspired by Zabranjeno Pušenje, any of the bands listed on this page is such an offshoot since the former seems to be an early semi-exemplar of the genre. That is, unless someone can find a source expressly stating that these two bands were thus inspired. Anyone have an argument or a source? March1291 (talk) 15:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the sentence was supposed to say that the style of these bands' music is related to/an offshoot of the Gypsy punk genre, not of the band Zabranjeno Pušenje. —Zalktis (talk) 18:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You have the initiative I lack.March1291 (talk) 01:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there needs to be a more general article about Romany influences on/creation of pop music; whatever Beirut may be, they are nothing like a punk band.  Not that they shouldn't be mentioned;  just, clarification is needed. 69.49.44.11 (talk) 18:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, I'm going to take out Beirut (talk —Preceding undated comment added 20:14, 11 November 2011 (UTC).

Its Romani & not Roma and no this is not "Gypsy" music
The word Roma is the plural of Rom using Romani grammar. Considering that we are writing in English the correct spelling is "Roms". If we were writing in Romani it would be Roma or some write is as Rroma to emphasise the slightly rolled 'r'. It would therefore not be "Roms music" nor would it be Roms's music but would be Romani music.


 * On pluralization, there's no universal rule for this in English. Although it's true that most English words are pluralized by adding an 's' at the end, there are also older words from the Anglo-Saxon roots of English that use the same word (fish/ fish, sheep/ sheep), and loan words of Latin origin that denote a plural with an 'a' at the end (forum/ fora) or an 'i' (hippopotamus/ hippapotami). My point is that the plural usually follows the linguistic convention of the language the word comes from, so "Roms" would be incorrect, and I've always seen and heard "Romani" used as the plural of "Rom" in both spoken and written English.  Danylstrype (talk) 11:26, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Another thing is that "Gypsy Punk" isn't a truly acknowledged genre but is just an umbrella term used by the few. The music itself is punk that draws massive influence from eastern European folk music. Some of this folk music may be performed or influenced by Romani. This is misleading to say it is "Gypsy music".

Romani music is vast and ranges..

flamenco in Spain (flamenco was introduced by Romani into Spain in 1425ad where records show that Romani were accepted into Iberia and renown for their music. Recent studies have proved that it is of Rajasthani origin which is the homeland of the Romani. It uses the Indian 12 beat and dance and song structure mirror that of Rajasthani dance - a fact that has been signed and acknowledged by the Spanish government).

Gypsy Jazz which is a style of Jazz invented by Django Reinhart and is play throughout by many Romani.

Romani folk music is often guitar based similar in many ways to flamenco in the way it is sung and the guitar is often picked. Romani instruments are the Dauli drum (a drum hanging side on in front and played with sticks. much like the Indian Dhol drum). They use a type of horn

there is mouth music called 'bega'.

None of this is in "Gypsy Punk".

I think it is dangerous when trying to make umbrella terms sound as a recognised and correct genre. Please consider this when writing

Gogol Bordello for example are 1/16 Romani, 1/8 Chinese & 15/16 Gaje (non-Romani), Hardly a good example of what Romani culture is about. I am full Romani and know very much about Romani culture and its music, language and its taboos Tsigano (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * thanks for sharing your knowledge and Romani perspective here Tsigano. Although its widely acknowledged that the word "gypsey" (or "gipsey") has its origins in an old misunderstanding about the origin of the Rom diaspora, the word has been adopted into English, to describe a range of related things including; nomadic lifestyles ("van gypseys"); places where nomadic people are welcome to stay for periods of time ("gypsey camp"), house vehicles, particularly olde worlde ones with lots of wood and metal finishings and colourful soft furnishings, ("gypsey housebus"); colourful, flamboyant clothing, ankle bells etc ("gypsey dress"); and music with strong Eastern European or Middle Eastern influences ("gypsey band"). The word has loose connections to its point of origin, but it has effectively become a separate English word, similar to the way the word "hippy" is often used today to describe many of the same things as "gypsey", even though the original word had a much more specific meaning. From the Wikipedia page : "The word hippie came from hipster and was initially used to describe beatniks who had moved into New York City's Greenwich Village and San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury district".


 * Secondly, it is the nature of musical genres to spawn sub-genres over time, and for the more popular ones to eventually become genres in their own right. For example, grunge began as a sub-genre of punk, which in turn began as a sub-genre of rock, which in turn began as a sub-genre of blues. Yet nobody claims that grunge, punk, or rock are not musical genres. Punk has spawned a number of variations, usually by hybridizing with other genres, and many of these are now generally recognised as genres in their own right, including hardcore (punk/ thrash metal hybrid), ska-punk, and others, so I think "gypsey punk" is a reasonable genre name for the many bands that now play a hybrid of punk with Eastern European or Middle Eastern influences. As long as there are a group of "gypsey punk" bands who can be said to have some commonality of style or origin, and this has been described in the music press, I think it's fine for this to be explained in its own Wikipedia page.


 * Having that all of that, I agree that it's somewhat misleading to say that "gypsey punk" has anything to do with the Roma or Romani music, and there would need to be some credible citations to justify keeping those references in the article.  Danylstrype (talk) 11:26, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Unclear sentence.
The sentence "Because gypsy punk is a mixture of traditional music and popular music to the western culture, the Romani are colonizing and seemingly settling into a loose identity of their own." seems unclear to me. I can't tell exactly what it's supposed to mean so I can't try to fix it. Chuck Baggett (talk) 23:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

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Article name change proposal & other questionable wording
Hey, i’ve been informed that many regard the G word* when referring to Roma as a slur (and all other language variations), seeing as the article name in this instance contains said word, I propose that we change it to something like "Romani Punk" Also, parts of this article seem very fetishistic of Romani people/downright creepy sort of racism that really needs to be adressed..

comment added by Asdiapod (talk • contribs) 20:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * *P.S. i'm aware many Roma also use this term in reclamation and take great pride in it, and I respect that, I'm not Roma myself so specifically i'd like your input on this as it is a matter of your people above all else


 * I want to sign this as well. I believe that it would be for the best to call this "roma punk" in the tittle and then add something along the lines of "also sometimes known as "gypsy punk" in the article itself with perhaps some info on the fact that the term is considered a slur by many. Mx-Spoon (talk) 01:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)


 * WP:RGW; any change like this would need to be accompanied by sources. I am sure there are issues with the tone that should be fixed (and it would be good to mention is context as a slur) BUT I think the changes suggested here reflect a misunderstanding of the history and philosophy listed on the page. The use of the word in the genre name comes from Roma people reclaiming the term *and* it envisions the "gypsy" stereotype as something separate from actual Roma culture, a sort of romanticised ideal. I am not of Roma descent either so I cannot speak as to whether this is an appropriate or respectful move, but it strikes me as effectively "talking over" the people of Roma descent who pioneered and popularised that music. This is obviously a very charged issue but misleading people about this genre's history is not the way to smooth that over, imo. ~ fourths~! (talk) 20:32, 8 May 2022 (UTC)