Talk:Gyula (title)

Please provide reference for the initial meaning of "Gyula"

 * Originally gyula was a Hungarian word referring to the war leader or military warlord of the Magyar tribes.

if this is true, then it would be awesome, BUT... it may well be propaganda, which would be awfull -- Criztu 15:44, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I read it in a modern history book, which I'm sure would not contain crude propaganda. However, I have an etymological dictionary of Hungarian somewhere in a box. If I can find it, then it should provide a good description of the etymology of gyula and an indication of how well supported by evidence the etymology is. I'll let you know... Scott Moore 12:35, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * i've seen some e-maps with Gyalu foldje(land), this link 1 speaks of south tibetan Gyalu=head of family... i think this is the "connection" the hungarians base their Gyula meant "chieftain", hmm... -- Criztu 15:07, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Criztu, what evidence do you have for this? There is a possible link between gyula in Hungarian and in. But a Tibetan connection seems rather obscure to me. Actually at least two Gyulas (Latin: Geula) are mentioned in Gesta Hungarorum (I only have access to a translation into Hungarian, which refers to the Latin words at certain points). The author describes one as the grandfather of Tétény. Another is referred to as the younger Gyula who opposed King Saint Stephen.
 * However, I have read ERDÉLY TÖRTÉNETE, AKADÉMIAI KIADÓ, BUDAPEST 1986 that the author mistook titles for names. Both Gyula and Horka, both regarded as given names by the author, were in fact titles during the time of the Magyar migration into the Carparthian basin. They only became given names during the time of the Hungarian Kingdom. Similarly he took Gelou from the name of a place.


 * I also found the reference to Gyalú (Latin: Gelou) the leader of the blasii et sclavi in Transylvania. I would assume that Gelu is the Romanian version of the name. Scott Moore 15:59, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, does anyone have any evidence of a connection between Gyula and Julius? I can't find any connection mentioned in Hungarian Websites (they all say that the given name Gyula was originally a title). I noticed here on Wikipedia, Gróf Andrássy Gyula is anglicised as Julius, Count Andrássy. I reckon that this came from 1911 Britannica, which has a habit of using the German versions of obscure foreign names. Britannica now refers to him as Gyula but says that Julius is his "German name". Scott Moore 14:59, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the Julius in place of Gyula is not a fluke at all, but is in fact a rather standard practice: here are three examples out of countless examples that came up: ; ;. The etymology definitely needs to be verified. 007 08:28, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * In Gesta Hungarorum, Gyula is rendered as Geula in Latin. Is there any connection between Geula and Iulius? Scott Moore 15:59, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Criztu, I don't agree based on common, comtemporary usage and the SZTAKI online dictionary (which is generally reliable). Kastély in Hungarian usually refers to a largle, non-fortified residential building (ie mansion in English). Vár is a general word for a large, fortified building and thus equivalent to castle in English. The English word citadel (a fortress commanding a city) is translated as fellegvár by SZTAKI and other online dictionaries. So, vár generally can be translated as castle, but could be translated as citadel. Scott Moore 15:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Etymology of Gyula
Here it is!

A Magyar Nyelv Történeti-Etmológiai Szótára, Akadémiai Kiadó, Budapest, 1967,1984

Summary of entry: Gyula is a word of Turkic origin. The original meaning was "torch" but it had already come to be a title before it was transferred to Hungarian (either directly from ancient Turkish or via Khazar). The word was used to describe the warlord of the Magyar tribes. The first written reference to the Hungarian word is circa 950AD as jila. A reference from 1075 spells the word as Jula. In Gesta Hungarorum it is Geula or Gyyla [I presume from different manuscripts]. The word was revived in the 19th century as a given name.

Related words in other languages include: Yula (Pecheneg) Yulaman (Bashkir) Kaltanjula (Altai) Scott Moore 10:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I already knew about that Turkic etymology, I was waiting to see what you had in mind. The Turkic etymology was discussed on a website I was reading recently, [http://www.gk.ro. 007 20:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Enter the bulgarian Dulo clan
since this "Gyula" is pronounced as "Diulo" in magyar, and considering the Bulgar connection that Gesta Hungarorum brings in connection with Gelou, Glad, Menumorout (who refused "with a bulgarian heart" the offer of Arpad) and Gyula, is it possible that the bulgarian Dulo clan to have any relevance in all this "intrigue" ? - see List_of_Bulgarian_monarchs -- Criztu 21:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting that you bring up the Bulgars, because I'm considering this scenario: the word may have entered not from "ancient turkish" or "from the Khazars", but may have entered from The Bulgar Turks or Avars specifically, or from some other Turkish group that invaded the Romanian area long before the Magyars. The word 'gyula' may originate, for example, from the Avars, and may have entered Magyar from them directly or via Vlachs. Vlachs encountered Bulgars, Avars, and Huns before Vlachs encountered the Magyars. What evidence is there that Magyars had the word already when they arrived in Europe? They may have, but not necessarily. This article should give the benefit of the doubt to magyars in this case (in other words, to lean towards the idea that the word is Turkic and it entered the Magyar language before they arrived in Europe, because of the Turkic frequency of the word), but this article aside, there are still many ambiguities.

But one cannot say the word is originally Hungarian, if it is originally and more specifically Turkic (not Finno-Ugric). 007 08:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the reasoning behind the hypothesis that gyula entered Hungarian from Khazar. But it seems as though there are two possible paths:
 * From the Kavar/Kabar tribes which joined the 7 Magyar tribes. According to Dr. Peter Hidas, "the Byzantine Emperor Constantine [Porphyrogenitus] tells us, that some of the tribes of the Khazar nation rebelled against their rulers. The insurgents consisted of three tribes, who were called Kavars or Kabars. The Government prevailed; some of the rebels were slaughtered but some fled the country and settled with the Hungarians who lived at this time in the Ukraine." According the Constantine, the Kavar/Kavar tribes taught the language of the Khazars to the Magyars, and both languages were spoken in Hungary (at the time of Constantine). In Wikipedia from the Avar discussion forum: "Also, the Kabars are recorded in all of the primary sources as tribes of Khazar Turk federation who joined the proto-Magyars during their migrations from the Ukranian steppes to the Danubian steppes." It has also been suggested that the Kabars may have introduced viticulture to the Tokaj region. It would be interesting to examine in detail the etymology of Hungarian words relating to viticulture, to see if this suggests a Kavar/Kabar connection.
 * Directly from the Khazars during the time that the Magyars were subjects of the Khazars. According Kevin Alan Brook ("The Jews of Khazaria"), the Rus and the Hungarians both adopted the dual-kingship system of the Khazars. Furthermore, again according to Constantine, the Khazars gave the Magyars their first king - Lebedias. If this is true, then it seems likely that the Hungarians would also have adopted some associated vocabularly.

Further evidence which may have been used to support this hypothesis: Scott Moore 15:25, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * According to Arnold Toynbee in Constantine Porphyrogenitus and his World "though the Hungarians have ceased to be bilingual long ago, they were so at the beginnings of their state, as testified by some two hundred loan-words from the old Chuvash dialect of Turkish which the Khazars spoke".
 * According to Gardezi: "... Their leader rides out with 20000 horsemen; they call him Kanda [Hungarian: Kende] and this is the title of their greater king, but the title of the person who effectively rules them is Jula. And the Magyars do whatever their Jula commands."

Further clarification of Gyula
I've just read a part of Realm of St.Stephen: History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 which is a recent work written by a Hungarian historian for the English-speaking market (it hasn't even been published in Hungarian). This has further clarified things and in some cases confirmed what I had already read elsewhere.

I'm going to change this from a disambiguation page, as the revised article will focus on the title/personal name Gyula. Scott Moore 16:06, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Criztu, GH does not say that Tuhutum was the son of Arpad. I deleted references to Oltenia, Cumans and Pechenegs because I don't see how this is related to the article. What has this got to do with Gyula the older? Scott Moore 15:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * from what i understand, Sarolt was a cuman/pecheneg name. it meant something like, "land of Olt". somehow Gyula came from Oltenia (according to Mircea Dogaru). and by the time of Gestas, lands from Oltenia and along river Olt were refered to as Tera Cumanorum or Terra Blacorum et Bissenorum (pechenegs). so this name is in relation with cumans and pechenegs, who are considered turkic people, unlike romanians or hungarians who are latin and altaic respectively. so adding info on Oltenia and cumans and pechenegs i think is a plus ; Tuhutum i thought was son of Arpad. np if he wasn't, i'll search for this info-- Criztu 18:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--

please provide as much reference to sources as possible. Don't say "according to medieval sources", but better "see: Chronicon pictum, see: Gardezi, see:etc"

what does it mean Gyula the old - transcribed variously as Geula, Gyyla, Gyla or Jula in the Hungarian Gestas ? why are you imposing the hungarian word Gyula over the original forms ? youre living in 1984 ? Gyula is the hungarian "presumed and propagated word" inexistent in hungarian chronicles. "hungarian historians base their theories on these characters (Gylas Geula/Gyyla)", not "GH and DAI transcribed Gyula as Geula/Gyyla and Gylas". note that the name Geula could come from a romance name Julius or romanian name Gelu. note that Gyula/Gyalu could come from a romanian word "Dealu" (hill). should i replace your Gyula with my Iuliu or Dealu or Gelu ? let's stay with the original Gylas - name of a magyar chieftain (who could have been slav, romanian, whatever, fighting for the magyars, as GH says "after the death of Gelou, his men sworn allegiance to Tuhutum"; and Geula/Gyyla - in GH -- Criztu 18:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Drear Criztu! The form Gyula has already appeared in the Chronicon Pictum (14th century). See the newly added picture! (Red letters: Gyula duce Transiluano) 81.183.150.84 10:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Gyula and Julius
A small point: Hungarian has many given names that have no equivalents in the major Western languages (English, French, German, Latin). So for a long time, it has been a practice to look for the most-similar-sounding Latin etc. name and use it as an "equivalent", although there was no etymological connection. So for example Jenő was connected with Eugenius/Eugen/Eugene/Eugène, Sarolta with Charlotte, László (a male name) with Leslie (a female name, no kidding, this was a mistake started by an otherwise brilliant and immensely popular English-Hungarian dictionary). So be careful, just because two names are used as equivalents doesn't mean they are etymologically connected.
 * what about Tibor ? who guarantees you Gyula is not from a romance name Giuliu/Gelou ? currently you can find the name Giulio - italian, and Gelu - romanian (i don't count romanian name Iuliu as it might be a revived name) -- Criztu 29 June 2005 21:43 (UTC)
 * what i said is no "proof" or whatever, I just wanted to point out that just because Gyula has been connected to Julius in the 19th does not automatically mean it is etymologically connected. It may well be, than it is a coincidence. But Scott Moore has already qouted that etymological dictionary, what's in it is probably the view of historical linguists as of today (which may be wrong, of course, but come on, those guys who wrote it are professional linguists, and we are all amateurs, why do we think we can outsmart them? Sarolta and Charlotte completely sound like each other, even the r-l change would be fairly typical, and still, we know these names are unconnected. So historical linguistics is more tricky than it looks, be careful and really let us not kid ourselves that we can be smarter than the experts who spent their who life researching this stuff. I mean, to do historical linguistics, it is not enough to be intelligent, you have to read and study a lot etc., just like any other science, it takes a lot of work, it is not only a matter of sheer intelligence)--Tamas 30 June 2005 09:50 (UTC)
 * if name Gyula comes from title Gyula, then i'd expect other titles to evolve into names. so, show me a hungarian name evolved from the titles Harka or Kende (just curious); i'm also curious about names evolved from titles in other languages if there are such. I thought a little and Cesar comes to mind, but that is an opposite process i think, name Caesar evolved into title -- Criztu 30 June 2005 10:00 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about the etymology of Gyula, I just wanted to make that small point. But anyway, Kende is used as a given name, although it is much less popular than Gyula.--Tamas 30 June 2005 10:28 (UTC)


 * Criztu, I got a question for you: do any Romanian linguists or historians question the Turkic etymology of gyula? If not, then you know the deal: no original research, etc.; though we can always add a note if need be that the Turkic etymology is the general etymology, but not "proven". It's hard to prove these kind of things though. 007 1 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)
 * don't know if any ro linguist made research about the title "gyula". About the name Gyula, well, also don't know if any ro linguist addressed the matter. that Mircea Dogaru talks about the frequency of romanian placenames: Giulesti, Julea, Gilau, etc. and relates them to Julius. this site http://www.behindthename.com/ who claims to use expert studies, relates Gyula to Julius  http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?terms=gyula&nmd=n&gender=both&operator=or


 * You made a point earlier about titles rarely becoming names, but I think it happens sometimes. 007 1 July 2005 08:31 (UTC)

Even if it is of Turkic origin it could be from Julius (perhaps through Italian Giulio). Turkic people certainly knew of Julius Caesar. Just remember: such Slavic names for king as Kral and Krol -- and Hungarian Kiraly -- derive from Karl (as in Charlemagne).Pbrower2a (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Reference for Gyula
I hope I use the wikipedia-editor correctly. I have never done this before.

There is an other reference of a Hungarian warlord mentioned as Gyula other than DAI or GH.

In the fifth book of Kitab al-Muktabis Ibn Hayyan described the Hungarian attack against Iberia in 942. He named some of the Hungarian leaders (There were seven). One of the leader called Gyula. But There is a problem. I have a copy of the translated text, but I do not know the original spelling of the name.

Bye, Laszlo

Pronunciation?
Could someone add an IPA pronunciation? pfahlstrom 21:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)