Talk:H. Jones

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Heidijane 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Should this page be moved to H. Jones (currently a redirect here)? He was normally known by his initial and hated his first name. Dbiv 19:00, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

With no objection I've completed the move. It's astonishing how many pages were under the impression that he should be referred to as "'H' Jones". It was not a nickname, it was an abbreviation. Dbiv 19:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The first sentence is clumsy:


 * Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert Jones VC OBE (May 14, 1940 – May 28, 1982), who disliked his first name and was therefore known to his men and the public as H. Jones, was a posthumous British recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

Is there any objection to shortening it thus:


 * Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert Jones VC OBE (May 14, 1940 – May 28, 1982), better known as H. Jones, was a posthumous British recipient of the Victoria Cross.

Bastie 17:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Bastie, and would remove the word British from your otherwise excellent suggestion. Dave 22:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

The Regiment achieved the moral highground?
I presume the author meant something to the effect that the British had much higher morale after the Regiment's victory, which led to their domination in subsequent battles. Surely "[t]he British achieved such a moral superiority over the enemy" wasn't meant literally.
 * That's a quote from the Citation itself, I agree it doesn't make much sense by itself. Dan100 (Talk) 00:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Pissed on Wine
"because he was always pissed on wine" - shouldn't this be attributed somewhere, and better worded? I've changed it to drunk for now, but this needs to be checked. Mei 22:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to remove it for the following reasons: (1) The structure implies that the 'wine' remark is attribute to the mentioned book - but in fact the inclusion of the reference pre-dates the 'wine' remark (2) The statement was added by an anonymous IP editor who has recently been warned for adding potentially libellous material (User talk:62.56.70.164) (3) It probably violates WP:BLP--CIreland 16:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * not to critcise the removal, but how can it possibly violate WP:BLP if he has been dead for 25 years?--Jackyd101 01:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Name
Shouldn't the article call him by his actual name instead of the awful 'H'. Jones? The H-Man2 20:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote marks
Why does his name have single-quote marks around the H, even if he did perfer to go by initial, why the quote marks?Cromdog 05:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Family info
The Shropshire Housing Association ref only goes to a splash page, and even on entering the site, I can't find anything that relates to Jones or his family - is it possible to add a more specfic url, or a description of how to navigate to the relevant content. Since it doesn't seem to provide any useful info as it stands, I've commented it out. I've added additional references for Rupert's commissioning into the D and Ds, his current rank and MBE, but having trouble finding the same for David, as unfortunately David Jones is rather a common name, perhaps user:Maxburgoyne could provide some additional info on date of commissioning, promotion or middle names/initials which would help narrow the Gazette search results down to a manageable level. It would appear from the Prestel reference given that he had not been commissioned by November 2002 (Rupert's rank is mentioned, but none is given for David, though if he only had a short career he might also have left the army by then, thinking about it). Similarly it would be nice to have a definitive reference for Sara's CBE, but married women can be quite hard to find in the Gazette as the presentation of married names is far from consistent, so again a date would be useful, the SAMA (82) website I've added as a ref says 96 Birthday Honours, but she doesn't appear in the Gazette for that year,, so that must be a typo. David Underdown (talk) 10:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Reassessment
Hi guys, just re-assessed the article. I've kept it at start because of the Fieldhouse "recommendation" comment, it's unreferenced. I've added a tag to it, but it's a bit too controversial (see the criteria I'm assessing by here) to just leave unreferenced. If no-one adds a source I'd just suggest deleting it. Once that's all sorted I'll happily bump it up to a "B"!

P.S. Also a photo would be nice, but not necessary for a "B". If anyone's interested I'm sure any non-free images would easily meet the fair-use criteria. Ryan 4314  (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Controversy section
Following on from Ryan's comment just above - I've removed the paragrpah completely.

"Papers disclosed in 2005 have been represented by some as proof of an ongoing internal argument at the time the award of a medal was being considered. The commander of 3 Commando Brigade, Brigadier Julian Thompson, had "very strongly recommended" the award of the VC, but the overall Task Force commander, Admiral Sir John Fieldhouse, gave it "only" a recommendation"

The recommendation, along with that for Ian McKay is available on The National Archives website (unfortunately, unless you are onsite at TNA, or belong to a subscribing institution it will cost you £3.50 each to download the full pdfs). It is certainly true that the original recommendation put forward contained the words "very strongly recommend", though it's not clear who made this recommendation as the signature block seems to hav ebeen accidentlly covered up during the digitisation, and Fieldhouse does only recommend. However, exactly the same pattern is evident in the recommendation for McKay (which was made by Richard Trant, so in the absence of a cite for someone who has drawn this conclusion, I don't think it stands up. David Underdown (talk) 09:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL u wouldn't believe this, but I actually woke up in the night, n while I was trying to get back 2 sleep I thought to myself "I wonder if anyone's sourced that bit yet, otherwise I'll go remove it tomorrow!) I'll bump the article up t a B then. Ryan 4314   (talk) 10:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I'd been maeaning to do it for a few days, but kept forgetting at the times I actually had opportunity to download the recommendations free. David Underdown (talk) 10:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Paras.JPG
The image Image:Paras.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --04:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Narrative
I understand that it's a great time-saver, to have Jones' disastrous assault covered entirely by the VC citation, but I believe the article would be greatly improved by a narrative treatment of this incident. As it stands, the articles implies that he single-handedly launched the only assault on the Argentine positions, and was the sole casualty, whereas e.g. this page at Mod.uk notes that his adjutant was also killed, and that the enemy trench was subdued later with rocket fire. As for the "controversy" section above, there's more recent coverage of this here at The Independent, from May 2007, from a former paratrooper who argues that Jones' act was ill-concevied. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

While I'm bored, the "references" section ends with a short list of books (including, curiously, Scotland's Forgotten Valour). Given the short length of the article, and the (ref) citations in the most substantial sections, were these books actually consulted as references, or have they simply been added as a kind of "for further reading"? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 10:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good finds - there's a further issue in that the citation is still under Crown Copyright so we shouldn't really be using it in full anyway as it's not fully compatible with the GFDL. Separate "Controversy" or "Criticism" sections are also a bit of a WP:NPOV issue.  If we changed to a more narrative treatment, we could also incorporate some of the material better.  On the references issue, a lot of the VC articles were ported in from an external website, and I rather suspect that the books were jsut mentioend there, and so ended up being put on as general references on the VC winner articles.  Unless we can actually verify that Jones is mentioned in them, it might be better to remove them, or as you say, shunt them into a "Further reading section" David Underdown (talk) 10:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I support these changes. -- Ryan 4314  (talk) 16:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Who gunned down Colonel Jones?
Back in the 1996 it had been revealed it was Corporal Osvaldo Olmos, of the elite 25th Infantry Regiment, who had fired the fatal round or burst from his FAL automatic rifle. Does anyone remember seeing the British documentary at the time? If you read Spencer Fitz-Gibbon's book, Not Mentioned in Despatches: The History and Mythology of the Battle of Goose Green, it is clear that one man alone, a sniper, was doing all the real damage to A Company. I have a lot of reasons to believe that the 'sniper' the Paras refer to in the morning fighting was Olmos, a 601 Commando Company sniper on loan to the 25th Regiment. But then again Corporal Dave Abols claimed to have destroyed a machinegunner manning a trench from where Colonel Jones was shot. Hugh Bicheno, in his book Razor's Edge: The Unofficial History of the Falklands War, claims Corporal José Luis Ríos of the 12th Regiment, was the man responsible for gunning down Jones and that he later was killed by a rocket fired by Abols.--EmilioSnell (talk) 03:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Señores, disculpen que no les escriba en inglés pero no domino esa lengua. Al teniente coronel Herbert "H" Jones lo mató el soldado conscripto clase 62 Oscar Ledesma quien estaba a cargo de una MAG. Muchos años después de la guerra, le envió una nota de disculpa a la viuda de Jones. "H" pereció tras una carga imprudente sobre la posición del subteniente Juan José Gómez Centurión del Regimiento de Infantería 25 al mando del teniente coronel Mohamed Alí Seineldín. Al verse acosado por el fuego enemigo, Jones solicitó un "alto el fuego" para parlamentar. Hallándose acorralado aplicó esa treta y una vez frente a frente, solicitó la rendición de Gómez Centurión. Eso le permitió a su gente efectuar una serie de cambio de posiciones no contemplada por las leyes de la guerra durante un alto el fuego, y por esa razón su gente pudo salir de tan comprometida situación. Luego cargó mal, con torpeza y cayó abatido. Con él murieron o resultaron gravemente heridos el soldado Tuffen, de 17 años y los cabos Prior, Albols y Hardman. El libro de Hugh Bicheno es bueno pero contiene numerosos errores que en su momento le señalé a través de una carta. El oficial del Para 2 y teórico militar Spencer Fitz-Gibbon ha escrito al respecto y puesto en duda la condecoración a Jones. No deseo debatir, ustedes ganaron la guerra y eso es incuestionable pero esta es la verdad. Les recomiendo mi libro (en español) "Malvinas. Guerra en el Atlántico Sur" (https://guerraaltlanticosur.blogspot.com/), británicos y miembros de los países del Commonwealth que me han escrito me han dicho que es bastante objetivo Saludos para todos. Alberto N. Manfredi (h), 16/01/2018.- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.18.62.33 (talk) 14:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Citation
It's fairly common practice to include a VC citation in a biography, but in this case it has been commented out. I would like to restore it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC).


 * Concur - Done. Farawayman (talk) 22:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

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