Talk:HMS Crescent (1931)

Move to HMS Crescent?
Given that neither Crescent nor Fraser are more noteworthy than the other, it makes sense this article is moved to HMS Crescent (1932) (ie the name and date of ship build), with HMCS Fraser (H48) as a redirect, rather than the other way around. A few minor changes will also be required to the intro to indicate more fully the shared history. If there's no objection within a couple of weeks, I'll make the change. Shem (talk) 09:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Pennant numbers were liable to change until about 1948, and for numerous warships they were changed several times during the ship's lifetime; so the concensus we developed was that launch dates (which being historic data would not be open to change) would be used as an identifier for all British and other European warships. I appreciate that USN hull numbers are fixed and serve an entirely different function from the pennant numbers used for RN warships, so I will not comment as regards what US contributors wish to do for USN warships. But I strongly urge them not to try and use pennant numbers as part of the title of articles on any pre-1948 British warship. As regards ships which were renamed (such as the Crescent) it makes sense to have the article titled under the name which the ship had when launched, with a redirect for names which were acquired later in the ship's life. So I entirely agree with you that the article should be entitled HMS Crescent (1931) (NOTE 1931, not 1932 - she was launched 29 September 1931!), with a redirect from the later Canadian identity of HMCS Fraser (1937) (17 February 1937 was when she was formally transferred to her new identity). I don't think the "H48" has any relevence at all, and I'm sure someone trying to find the ship would not use that as an identifier. For most destroyers, the pennant letter was changed in 1940 (although this did not happen for "H" pennants). Rif Winfield (talk) 18:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mea culpa - I moved it to (1932) vice (1931) in the first place. I can't imagine what I was thinking (perhaps it was a simple typo?)  I suggest we wait until we're happy with the disambiguation by date discussion before moving it once-and-for-all. Shem (talk) 21:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 12:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

HMS Crescent (1932) → HMS Crescent (H48) &mdash; Pennant number is better disambiguator than year (per WP:NC-SHIPS). I can't move over redirect with history. — Bellhalla (talk) 11:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not uncontroversial. Pennant or hull numbers are recommended for modern ships "if they are well-known", not in general. There have been several discussions about this, and the consensus seems to be to use pennant numbers for Royal Navy post-WW-2 ships, launch dates for post pre-WW-1 ships, and no prevailing opinion for ships in between. Please go the proper way for possibly contested moves. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that I believe there's nothing well-known about HMS Ark Royal (R07), and that it should be re-named HMS Ark Royal (1981) to disambiguate it properly from other Arks, my opinion that this article should remain at its current name is probably of little value. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, I oppose the move. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shem1805 (talk • contribs) 17:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pennant number are NOT good disambiguators - they were quite liable to change during a ship's life, whereas a ship's launch date is a once-and-for-all historic date. (Mind you, it is not helpful that the date quoted is wrong - the launch date was 1931, not 1932 [see my note above in the first item of this talk section] - but that's simply someone's input error). Stephan's record of the concenus agreed is roughly correct, with 1948 being the operative date for "post WW2 ships". I would also remind you that there were as many pre-1900 ships to consider for the RN as post 1900 ships; and the former never had pennant numbers. Pennant numbers changed frequently during WW1; and many changed once or twice during WW2 (notably the flag superior part of the pennant) and again at the end of that war. Rif Winfield (talk) 18:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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