Talk:HMS Doterel (1880)

Aftermath and Causes
Should causes of the explosion come before the section "Aftermath"? Then the information about the siccative being discontinued would be moved to the aftermath section. Ryan Vesey Review me!
 * Ryan, I see what you're saying, but it would break the chronological narrative. I think it's fine as it stands.  What would be useful is to find out where she stopped between Sheerness and Punta Arenas so that we can fill out the "Service" section a little more.  Shem (talk) 08:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the problem I see is that I think the section heading I chose of "aftermath" has two major dictionary definitions.
 * A period of time following a disastrous event (the term of the word that is used now)
 * A consequence of a disastrous event (the term of the word that would be used if it was used for the information about xerotine siccative)
 * I feel like the discontinuance of xerotine siccative seems out of place. Since it appears that xerotine siccative was the cause of the explostion, maybe it would make sense to split the paragraph and use more information about how the xerotine siccative exploded.  If nothing contradicts this article it seems like it would give enough information for a second full paragraph.  Ryan Vesey  Review me!  14:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and made the change here. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  15:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Quote to be verified
I found an interesting quote from the captain at the bottom of this forum. I am attempting to verify the quote and thought I'd bring it to the attention of other editors. Ryan Vesey Review me!  15:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the letter you're looking for was reprinted in The Royal Gazette of Bermuda, and is available here. Great thing, the internet! There is also a high resolution picture of two envelopes which shows that Doterel called at Madeira and Montevideo before arriving at Punta Arenas.  Shem (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've hit a bit of a rich seam, and it will take a while to collate. In the meantime, if you want to incorporate stuff, try this and this.  Best of all so far, is this from the NYT describing the events of the day.  Shem (talk) 17:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Peer review
I've been asked to perform a peer review of this article, I will review it in light of the fact that it is nominated for GA consideration. I am not the GA reviewer though.


 * The lead is minimal and should include more on it's construction, naming, commanding officer and cause of explosion. Keep WP:LEAD in mind, the lead should be a summary of the entire article.
 * Done. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have any info on the intended use of the Doterel? Why was it down at Punta Arenas?  If there is no info on the mission of the Doterel perhaps there's something on what the Osprey-class sloops were used for.  I don't know if this info is readily available but it would augment what appears to be a rather sparse article.
 * Done. Doterel was a Doterel-class sloop, not an Osprey. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Can the crew section be combined say with the intro paragraph of the Design section? It's one sentence and one sentence is usually not enough to make a section.  Also the wording should be "Doterel would have had a normal complement of 140–150 men."  It did have a full complement when it sank, it's not hypothetical so remove the "would have".
 * Addressed - she sailed from Sheerness with 160 onboard, and I've expanded the point. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Were there other ships along with her when she exploded? Was there a rescue effort or how did the survivors get ashore?
 * Addressed. Shem (talk) 07:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In the Aftermath were there any official statements, memorials, remuneration for the families in England? I see the plaque at Punta Arenas I'm just wondering if anything was done back in England?
 * There's some stuff in Hansard about remuneration for the families. I'll dig in when I get a chance. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Good images.
 * I see your one book is by Winfield. Since you only use one page (as far as I can tell), go ahead and put the full reference into ref #4.  No need to split it out underneath since you only reference one page.  Does that make sense?
 * I've added another book reference. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * At the bottom is an info box that says Doterel-class sloops, but I thought the Doterel was an Osprey-class sloop.
 * She's a Doterel-class (which were a development of the Osprey). Where did you form the opinion that she was an Osprey?
 * Sorry I missed that she was a Doterel-class ship - missed the class part of that sentence. My fault.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 20:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Or does it need re-wording? Shem (talk) 20:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Overall you have a tidy little article. The writing is fine, sourcing is good, images are good, it's stable.  The issue the GA reviewer will likely have is with the comprehensive requirements of the GA criteria.  I asked some questions that may help guide you a bit.  You also need to beef up the lead.  I don't think it'll take much more work and with the wait time at GAC you should have plenty of time.  Best of luck to you and if you have questions please leave them on my talk page.  H1nkles (talk) citius altius fortius 15:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the short review - much appreciated. Shem (talk) 16:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Date confusion on main page
This is showing up on the main English page with 1861, but that should be 1881?

I'm slightly confused old boy...
Could any of you chaps shed some light on this sentence? - 'flammable oil drying compound called "xerotine siccative"' - I can't bally well make it it out. Does it mean it was a flammable compound used to dry oil, a drying compound made of flammable oil or a compound designed to dry flammable oil - it's dashed unclear. Also does anyone actually know what xerotine siccative actually is? Should it have it's own article? Thanks chaps, hope you can help. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 17:59, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't it quaintly Victorian? From the accounts I've read it was a compound provided to ships to "dry oil".  I imagine this means it was a powerful solvent, and clearly the vapours were explosive in the right conditions.  If I was guessing, I'd say it was much like modern petrol - a fairly light distillate of crude oil.  But that would be original research. Shem (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a brief mention of it in an 1899 American Chemical Society article. Here's a reference: EXPLOSIONS CAUSED BY COMMONLY OCCURRING SUBSTANCES. Charles E. Munroe J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1899, 21 (4), pp 317–346. It was an additive to oil paint to make it "dry" (that is, thicken and harden) more quickly. It consisted of an oxidizing agent dissolved in a "most volatile petroleum product." Little wonder that it exploded! I haven't been able to find its exact composition, probably because it was proprietary. Mahousu (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Outstanding - thank you. Shem (talk) 21:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Found a web link to the article here. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  05:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Outstanding! If you'll pardon the pun that 'dash' in the description makes all the dashed difference! Thanks chaps! Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 11:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A link to drying oil would be in order here. Reading linseed oil might help too.
 * I'm a furniture maker, so I have some familiarity with these oils and their fire hazard. Despite this though, I have no idea what a "xerotine siccative" was - I can guess at several things it could have been and at least three different chemical hazards that could have caused this explosion. Really it's impractical to say much more without some further referencing (probably to an old RN standard for their supply - it'll be in a filing cabinet somewhere in Pompey).
 * A drying oil is a vegetable oil prepared with a drier (usually a lead compound at this time, or a mixture with another metal salt). They cure by oxidation, which is an exothermic process. Wadded-up finishing rags discarded on a hot day often cause fires. In the right conditions, the heat of curing is enough to trigger ignition.
 * "Driers" (aka siccatives, even to this day) are often prepared in concentrated form, then added to a warmed raw oil immediately before use. This avoids the mixed oil going off in storage, it also reduces the risk of fire from the exothermic reaction of a drying oil, as described above. A typical recipe for such a siccative at this time would be mostly litharge (lead oxide, maybe some lead carbonate in there too) with maybe 1/8th part of manganese oxides. This is an oxidiser, so if it's suddenly mixed with anything flammable, there's a risk of fire. Mixed with turpentine (a much more common ingredient for paints at that time) it's practically a firelighter. Paint warehouses did regularly catch fire because of this stuff.
 * A preparation mixed with naphtha, or other light hydrocarbon solvent (modern white spirit), could be anything in terms of active chemistry, but the carrier solvent alone would be enough to cause a risk of fire in a confined space with naked flames. This is also the least viscous of the likely compounds and the most likely to leak rapidly from a cracked jar and then form a volatile vapour in a bilge space.
 * So the siccative is a credible and likely culprit, but we can't expand details of what it was and how it causes a fire without knowing more. Probably through the RN's specification for it. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have begun a page on Xerotine siccative at User:Ryan Vesey/Xerotine siccative. I won't have time to add to it for a long while; however, if anyone would like to add to it, the effort would be appreciated.  I have an accumulation of refs on the article, some of which require the user to be in the United States, but it could help you with your search.  Ryan Vesey  Review me!  22:52, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't do searches, I ask one of the chemistry house elves to do it for me. I'll post if he finds something. He also knows a chap in the USA who is an expert on the manufacture of authentic lead boiled linseed. Either of them might know about Naval potions.
 * I don't think we know what XS was yet, or whether it was the 2nd or 3rd mechanism that started the fire. Terebenes and petroleum distillates are both likely constituents and likely causes, but this doesn't tell us if 2 or 3 was the cause. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:07, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Unresolved Problems
This is the list of problems I'd like to get resolved before it is re-nominated to become a Good Article. Ryan Vesey 15:24, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Lead needs expansion. It should be two paragraphs at minimum to adequately cover the article
 * Note 3, about the Fenians, seems a little choppy (not necessarily a requirement for GA)
 * Sourcing quality
 * Wrecksite.eu currently sources the armament
 * Maritimequest currently sources "In September 1881, inquiries into the explosion determined that it was caused by the detonation of coal gas in the bunkers and that no crew members were at fault", part of "On 21 November 1881, an explosion occurred in Triumph caused by a drying compound called 'xerotine siccative'", "A surviving crewmember of Doterel, upon smelling the compound while on board Indus, stated that he had smelled xerotine siccative before the explosion of Doterel.", part of "Subsequent investigation revealed that just before the explosion in Doterel, two men were ordered to throw the jar overboard.", and part of "While cleaning the leaking explosive liquid from beneath the forward magazine the men may have broken the rule of not having an open flame below decks". It may be possible to remove the maritimequest citation from a number of those, some of the others can be sourced with this rather than maritimequest.
 * Patbrit.org is currently sources "Doterel was ordered from Chatham Dockyard", " 143 of the 155 crew members were killed ", "Reverend Thomas Bridges, a missionary at Ushuaia, presided over the funeral of the sailors killed in the explosion" and "A memorial plaque was placed in the "British section" of Punta Arenas Cemetery in 1936". I am entirely confident in the quality of the information presented by patbrit.org.  But we should double source what we can.
 * Overall sources and expansions note. The article could be greatly improved with the inclusion of some Spanish Language sources.  This is a great one that I just found.

Note that this is not a complete list of improvements and other editors are free to expand on it. Ryan Vesey 15:24, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

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