Talk:HMS Speedy (1782)

Fate
Added info on the apparent fate of Speedy following capture by the French Duncan (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
The infobox needs reworking. Currently, it give the impression that Speedy spent her entire career with the Royal Navy, which is not the case. One question that does need answering is what is the correct flag for the Papal Navy? Is it that of the Vatican, or a different one? Mjroots (talk) 05:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Using old flag of the Papal States as that is correct for the period. Infobox now expanded to show full career. Mjroots (talk) 13:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Speedy in Fiction?
The sections Cochrane, Speedy and Gamo and Later actions and capture neatly summarize the plot of the book Master and Commander in the Aubrey–Maturin series of novels by Patrick O'Brian, with Jack Aubrey as Cochrane and Sophie as Speedy. Mentioning the fictional counterpart is definitely worth mentioning somewhere, and in my opinion Speedy is more famous in fiction than in real life so it would be nice to mention this somewhere in the article, perhaps a Speedy in Fiction section? Kirk (talk) 13:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have access to the second reference at Master and Commander? - Dank (push to talk) 13:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I can get the hardcopy if necessary, also Sea of Words - Google Books version Kirk (talk) 13:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Any in fiction section would need to explicitly follow WP:MILPOP to the letter. -MBK004 14:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Normally, I'd be satisfied with a see also to the O'Brian book with a sentence in the lead and the Cochrane section; those changes would be a good start and Sea of Words is an authoritative source for the comparison.


 * However, Hornblower and the Hotspur also features a ship (HMS Hotspur) very similar to the Speedy and similar encounters and clear parallels between the main character and Cochrane (I don't have a source handy for this comparison). All popular culture sections are problematic but probably this is an example where it would be helpful for the reader and I don't think those two are the only examples of Speedy in Fiction, just the ones I know about.  Kirk (talk) 16:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I agree Kirk, but don't quote me on that since I don't know what I'm talking about :) - Dank (push to talk) 20:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

About the action of Oropesa
According to Spanish accounts about the event, the convoy was composed by 8 small merchant craft, 3 lightly armed feluccas and a 160-ton, 16-gun privateer xebec. Moreover, it seems that Speedy and Kangaroo failed to achieve their goal, since the Spanish commander, Fernando Dominicis, ordered all his vessels to be driven ashore, where 2 cannons of Oropesa's tower gave them additional cover, contributing to reject the attack. Except two vessels which were taken by the British and later set fire and abandoned (being one of them salvaged by 4 Spanish schooners), the convoy continued its passage unmolested and having lost only 1 sailor killed and another 2 wounded. The account given in the article is very different... ElBufon (talk) 07:18, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Caprea
Where should the word link? The city of Koper (historically called Caprea)? --Eleassar my talk 00:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Times
A search of The Times digital archives reveals a few more snippets of info on Speedy, including movements and dates. Is this worth adding in?
 * Can you be more specific with a link? It may be the same thing as Winfield; it might be a different Speedy Kirk (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with The Times is that it's a subscription service. I can access it foc through my Kent County Library card. Depending on where in the UK an editor is, it would be a different link for each county or unitary authority. This link is for those who have paid for a subscription.
 * A search for "Speedy" from 1-1-1785 to 31-12-1801 returns 96 results. Not all of them refer to HMS Speedy of course, but there appear to be a number of references to her, possibly extending into the teens. There was at least one merchant ship named Speedy during this time. Use cite newspaper The Times when sourcing from that paper. Mjroots (talk) 05:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Any editor who can access The Times would do well to check for "Speedy" on 24-4-1786, 23-11-1789, 1-4-1791, 17-11-1792, 10-6-1793, 29-7-1795, 5-10-1795, 18-7-1796, 13-11-1797, 31-1-1798, 7-2-1798, 2-4-1798, 23-9-1799, 26-10-1799, 5-8-1801, 7-8-1801, 12-8-1801, 19-10-1801 and 23-11-1801. A search of the London Gazette from 1-1-1781 to 31-12-1801 returns 27 results for the term "Speedy" and "brig". Some of The Times entries listed above refer to the London Gazette, which is a freely accessible website. Mjroots (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The sources in the article used those sources for their research so I don't know how much value there is in doing this, and of course be aware of WP:Primary;anyways, I looked at a few of the Times entries; 13-11-1797 says Downman captured the Palma off Porto, a 2 gun privateer with 4 swivels, on 18 September 1797, 31-1-1798 he captured another privateer on 16 December 1797, and 7-2-1798 says yet another tiny privateer captured 4 January 1798. Feels like primary research to me...Kirk (talk) 11:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How is it primary research? The Times is completely independant of the Royal Navy. At the dates mentioned, it was current news. Nowadays, it is a historical record of events. Similarly, The London Gazette is independant of the Royal Navy. Both easily pass WP:RS. Mjroots (talk) 12:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * When a contemporary newspaper prints a handwritten letter verbatim a day or two after it was received, and those articles are then reprinted in another newspaper a few days later, that second newspaper is still a primary source - its still very close to the events, and hasn't been checked against other sources. Also see WP:Summary - you don't have to cover every single minute detail to write a good article.Kirk (talk) 14:02, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Peterel or Peterell?
My change of Peterel to Peterell has been undone. The spelling of the ship's name at the time was Peterell (London Gazette). We should not rewrite history by changing names to suit the modern parlance. Mjroots (talk) 12:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See WP:PSTS. Spellings were much more flexible in the 18th century than now, and historians know not to take spellings from newspapers of the time as definitive.  That's why Wikipedia has a "secondary sources" policy: to remind us that we're not trained as historians, and we need to accept their opinions, rather than reading the original documents and making our own calls.  Does anyone have additional scholarly secondary sources that give a spelling? - Dank (push to talk) 12:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, someone already asked to verify the spelling in the FAC earlier and I did; I checked multiple sources and the spelling matches the source cited. Kirk (talk) 13:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Also spelled Peterell in contemporary issues of The Times, such as 20-5-1788. As we're discussing a C18th ship, we should use C18th names. Mjroots (talk) 13:36, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your reasoning - the idea behind WP:PSTS is to rely on professionals to do the synthesis for us; you've decided to do your own research and synthesize a different answer. Dank, additional sources: Source1 source2. Kirk (talk) 13:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * My reasoning is that we don't change history. Therefore Greenwich was in Kent if we are talking about dates before 1888. Liverpool and Manchester were in Lancashire until 1974. We use historic flags where appropriate, instead of defaulting to the current one. Changing names to modern spellings, to my mind, comes under this. College is as reliable source as Winfield, is he not? Therefore we have a modern secondary source using the contemporary name, as well as the reporting in contemporary newspapers. Mjroots (talk) 18:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No my point is that what we do not have here is a contemporary spelling and a modern spelling. We have two alternative spellings. Churchill's The life of Lord Viscount Nelson, duke of Bronté, published in 1808, used Peterel, as does a volume of the Universal Magazine published in 1796. Nelson, in his dispatches, uses Peterel on a number of occasions, and he'd be one to know since she was under his orders at the time. Some modern sources use one version of the spelling, some use the other. Benea (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, you've convinced me. If Nelson used both spellings then maybe a note in this article re the alternative spelling would suffice. The issue of the naming of the ship can be fully covered when an article is created on the ship. Mjroots (talk) 04:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This is not as clear a situation as saying we have an eighteenth-century spelling that has been changed to suit contemporary spelling. Colledge uses Peterell for this craft, and Peterel for all others, Winfield uses Peterel. This is a similar situation to HMS Hinchinbrook (1778). When I wrote that article I did some careful research into the spelling, as variations existed, not just in contemporary accounts but also modern scholarship. Hinchinbroke, Hinchinbrooke, Hinchingbroke, Hinchingbrook and Hinchingbrooke all appear, though Hinchinbrook predominates slightly, hence the current title. Spellings were flexible at the time, as long as we are consistent in the text, we can deal with it if necessary with a note, a la Hinchinbrook. Benea (talk) 14:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think a note is necessary in this case; maybe if the article for that ship ever gets created beyond a stub it could be noted, or maybe a note in the DAB article, since its HMS Peterel, and using that spelling for the first two versions, and cites Colledge. Kirk (talk) 14:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Australia
So Lord Cochrane was appointed in March 1800,  and in May 1800 he was involved in actions near Italy. But the article about George Caley, the botanist,  claims he arrived at Sydney on this ship in April 1800. Now speedy as it may be,  this ship cannot sail from Europe to Australia and back in two months. So something is wrong here.Eregli bob (talk) 05:52, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Could well be a different Speedy. Do you have a citation that would enable me to do some follow-up research? Acad Ronin (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)


 * No question that it's a different Speedy, this one was never in Australia. The link was made here by, changing it from the plain Speedy, which is another ship just of the same name, in existence in the same time period. There was another HMS Speedy (1798) in existence in 1800, he could just as well have linked to that one, and then have you wonder how that ship ever left the Great Lakes. The relevant entry in the adb has the same wording - 'Caley sailed from Plymouth in the Speedy, arrived in Sydney in April 1800'. It's a ship named Speedy, it's most likely this one - Speedy (1779), which is recorded as having arrived in Sydney on 15 April 1800. Another good example of how a little basic research when making links in the first place will avoid confusion. Benea (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Great job!
Great job making this a featured article! I'm a big P O'B fan so I got really excited when I saw the ship that inspired the Sophie on the main page - just wanted to let y'all know I appreciated your work. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:56, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in HMS Speedy (1782)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of HMS Speedy (1782)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "WR": From French frigate Sérieuse (1779): Wifield and Roberts (2015), p.125. From Action of 31 May 1796: Winfield and Roberts (2015 forthcoming), Chap. 9. 

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Large pockets : question
"Seven pieces of four-pounder shot in his pockets" Cochrane has the largest and the strongest pockets in the world, to carry fourteen kilos of metal in his trousers... Is this really serious or is this an old marine joke ? Or maybe i didn't understand the term "pockets"...--Sammyday (talk) 19:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The page does not say that it is in his trousers. Most likely in the pockets of his coat. The year is 1800. And the fact (true or not) was notable enough to have been noted. So, yes this is serious.--Joe McNeill (talk) 09:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

"French ship Saint Pierre" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect French ship Saint Pierre and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 7 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC)