Talk:HMS Swallow (1745)

Images
I've tried to find images of the ship. I found a stamp, and there is also this image of Dolphin and Swallow (drawn by Samuel Wallis, published no later than 1968, should be public domain even in the US). I can try to make a higher resolution scan from the edition of Carteret's journals. But which of the ships is Dolphin and which one is Swallow? —Kusma (talk) 09:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I assume all of Wallis' images here show the Dolphin. A few of them are already in c:Category:Samuel Wallis. —Kusma (talk) 09:09, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Difficult to tell with the resolution. If I was to guess, I'd say that the right ship is Dolphin, but it would be a very weak guess. Perhaps a higher resolution image would help; if the drawing is accurate then one would be able to identify them from their number of gun ports. One might hope that there's a caption somewhere identifying them? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure the original sketch is accurate enough to count gun ports, and the caption doesn't tell me who is who. I'll try to ask the library that supposedly holds the drawing for further information. —Kusma (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * While in the process of writing my query, I finally found the original: https://collection.sl.nsw.gov.au/record/9WZMPOzY/NZMDGGrB8xk6g There doesn't seem to be any caption for it. —Kusma (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Those are some great drawings. I suppose if we know that the image of the two ships is certainly Dolphin and Swallow then it can be captioned and included as such, even if we don't know which is which. Annoying, though. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:58, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Helen Wallis, the editor of Carteret's journals, seems to have been certain. I've uploaded a crop and put it into the article. —Kusma (talk) 17:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you think it would be possible to crop the stamp picture so that it focuses more on the ship? Would probably be a better illustration of Swallow for the infobox image than the construction plans. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The resolution isn't high enough. Another stamp that could be used (anything British before 1969 is ok) is this Pitcairn one: We could crop out the image of Carteret and the Swallow from that one. —Kusma (talk) 17:07, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Wow, if anything that's just a better image! I'm not sure if keeping Carteret is necessary because he's got at least one nice portrait available already, but I certainly agree that the crop would be worth doing. I would note that I'm useless at this kind of thing, and I'd be very grateful if you'd have a look at it..! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't see a way to get just the ship out without actual work by someone who knows how to use their image manipulation program. So not me. See above for crop. —Kusma (talk) 17:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That's great as-is, thank you! I've added it in. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This shows the route Swallow took on her voyage and thus might be useful, but I'm not well versed enough with the route to say if it's totally correct. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:18, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll check at some point in the future. I have to finish some IRL stuff and answer to comments on a GAN, but then I'd like to insert Carteret's opinion that this was the worst ship in the Navy. And if you won't nominate this article for DYK, I will :) —Kusma (talk) 20:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll leave the DYK to you, I'm pretty terrible at that too. I've got some stuff to add about a partial mutiny in 1761 which might be vaguely interesting, though. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Did the DYK nom. Sorry about mixing sfn's into your sfnp's, should have paid more attention. —Kusma (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

A few notes and source links
There is probably enough material to write a separate article about Carteret's circumnavigation, but one thing at a time. —Kusma (talk) 14:13, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Book review of the edition of Carteret's journals, including some overview of the voyage: Also quite critical of Helen Wallis.
 * Pacific Place Names and the History of Discovery: mentions that some(?) of the Santa Cruz Islands are called "Swallow Island(s)" Author was unable to find where the Carteret Islands are, though. Seems he did not have access to Wikipedia.
 * Swallow Islands are now called Reef Islands and "Swallow Island" is Matema Island (a rather underdeveloped article like most of our Solomon Islands content):


 * I'm intending to expand coverage of the journey using this history of circumnavigations, which seems to provide a good overview of the expedition, and the thoughts and circumstances behind it. Wallis and Carteret were clearly not on good terms for most of their time together, and the disharmony present on the voyage should certainly be noted! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:54, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Certainly. It seems to be that Carteret had more relevant experience, yet was given the far inferior ship, crew and provisions, and then achieved far more than Wallis. And then both were completely overshadowed by Cook.
 * If you need me to check anything in Carteret's (or Robertson's) journals, let me know, happy to search for confirmations (or juicy quotes). I'll try to write more about the story from the publishing end (An Account of the Voyages) for the moment. —Kusma (talk) 16:37, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Have written up what Wilson has to say on the expedition prior to them reaching the Pacific. If you have anything that might improve what I've included please do add it! I hope to write up the rest of Wilson tomorrow, which will hopefully mean a much more detailed account of the expedition for you to attack! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I realise I've managed to completely ignore the presence of the store ship Prince Frederick for the first part of the journey, and will add her part in tomorrow as well. Not sure whether or not this ship and HMS Prince Frederick are one and the same, however. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Have very belatedly finished off the exploration part of the article - can only apologise that it took me so long to get back to! Do you think there's anything else that needs adding or addressing in more detail? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * @Pickersgill-Cunliffe, I think you have most of the important points about the voyage (more detail like all the islands seen (some more here) should probably be in an article about the circumnavigation, not the ship). You could say something about Carteret meeting his colleague Louis Antoine de Bougainville, though, who had come to Tahiti just after Wallis did, and made some remarks about Swallow when he and Carteret met. Bougainville wrote "Son navire étoit fort petit, marchoit très-mal, & quand nous eûmes pris congé de lui nous le laissâmes comme à l’ancre. Combien il a dû souffrir dans une aussi mauvaise embarcation !" or, in Johann Reinhold Forster's (more probably Georg Forster's, actually) English translation, "His ship was very small, went very ill, and when we took leave of him, he remained as it were at anchor. How much he must have suffered in so bad a vessel, may well be conceived."  —Kusma (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * And there's absolutely no need to apologise. I haven't kept my promises to write about Hawkesworth's book either (allowed myself to be distracted by a couple of other fun things). I am very happy that we have so much more about the ship and the circumnavigation now. —Kusma (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll add the Bougainville meeting soon - I had read about it, but for some reason the significance didn't hit me. What a great quote! Hoping to put this up for GAN after I've done that and maybe expanded on a few earlier details. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * You could also consider some "legacy" like the island names I mentioned above or the publication of Carteret's journal in An Account of the Voyages (there are likely more complaints by Carteret about Swallow and the Admiralty in that book). For GA, you should probably expand the content about the circumnavigation in the lead section to a full paragraph. —Kusma (talk) 11:40, 1 March 2022 (UTC)