Talk:Hackney Diamonds Tour

Tour date table change
I feel like the tour date table should be changed. Most of the other concert tours use this format which I will use as an example below from the Sixty tour article.

Example 1:

Example 1 is the standard table used in most concert tour articles. For this article, this is the format which is being used.

Current Table:

With the examples present, the question is: if the other concert tour articles can use the format of Example 1, why can't we apply that for this article? In my honest opinion, I think if the majority of concert tour articles use Example 1 for most of their tables, then this article should use it as well. But I digress, as I would like to see if a consensus can be built.

Pinging users who have made previous changes to the article:, , , , and. HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree. Example 1 should be the used for this article also. Adding cities and states is understood by mostly United States residents, and could be confusing to list if the tour extends to other territories. Most tour tables only use city and don't name the state immediately after it. Mr00Mister (talk) 18:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, how is clarifying which city you're talking about by mentioning the state more confusing? ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, the differences are:
 * A lack of attendance and gross figures
 * Defined widths
 * Re: #1: sure, please do add them, if you have reliable sources. That would be great. Re: #2: there is no reason to define widths for these cells. In 2024, browsers are competent to render tables without being artificially told to fill them up with meaningless white space. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, we wouldn't necessarily add in the Attendance and Gross columns if there is no sources for them. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So you're suggesting that we need to define widths? I think not. That would only make the table unnecessarily wide and on some renderings, too wide to display without horizontal scrolling, which is the worst thing on Earth. I don't see the incentive for that. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is not what I said. I said nothing about the widths, I said that we do not need to add Attendance and Gross if there are no sources in support of them. If there are widths, they would be shorter. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, so what are you proposing we do differently? I had to tease it out of the example you gave. What are the changes you are proposing? You're making me work hard here to figure out what it is you want. Do you think we should have fixed widths on columns? ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What I am trying to suggest, is that we change the tour date table to something like this below. I will use the tour dates of this article as an example:
 * Suggested Change:
 * {| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"

! scope="col" style="width:12em;" |Date (2024) ! scope="col" style="width:10em;" |City ! scope="col" style="width:10em;" |Country ! scope="col" style="width:17em;" |Venue ! scope="col" style="width:10em;" |Opening acts ! scope="row" style="text-align:center;" |2024-4-28 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center;" |2024-5-2 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center;" |2024-5-7 Electric Mud
 * +List of 2024 shows
 * Houston
 * rowspan="15"|United States
 * NRG Stadium
 * Gary Clark Jr
 * New Orleans
 * Fair Grounds Race Course
 * N/A
 * Glendale
 * State Farm Stadium
 * Carín León
 * }


 * This is kind of what I was trying to talk about, and see if it would be changed to something like this. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see no reason to center text, define fixed widths, or put the year twice and see reasons to not do all of those things, which I've outlined already, so no, we shouldn't do any of those changes. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Then we don't have to have the year put in twice above in the column. HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If we don't put the year twice, don't center text, and don't have fixed widths, then I don't see what the changes are so........... sure. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Actually, the caption is worse. Have you seen MOS:TABLECAPTION? No, I think none of these are improvements. How are any of these any better? ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Then what about concert tour articles like The Eras Tour or Zoo TV Tour as examples which uses the format I had shown to you? How come this article has to be an exception to all of the other concert tour articles? If they can use the format I presented to you, why can't we use it for this article? HorrorLover555 (talk) 19:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Those articles should be changed. C'mon. Surely you know the difference between what is and what should be. I would wager most tables on Wikipedia also lack table captions and most images lack alt text. Should we remove those accessibility features because 50%+1 lack them? Most articles of x words or longer have at least one unsourced statement, therefore more unsourced statements are okay? Honestly, this is just silly. Do you have absolutely any reason for preferring centered text and defined column widths other than "other stuff exists"? Is there any sense in which those are an improvement and make for a better experience for anyone? ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, I get it. If there is to be no change, fine. But I will say at least in my opinion that the states should be removed from the table. HorrorLover555 (talk) 20:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If you feel like that is an improvement and others agree, then I have no objection and I appreciate your time and feedback. Thanks. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems like a third change is centering text. As I understand it, centered text is generally to be avoided for accessibility and legibility reasons (e.g. 1 and 2 and 3), so I'm inclined to say we should not have it, but I don't know of a source specifically about tables. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Please undo the addition of centered text per the above. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is it plausible that we could find sources?★Trekker (talk) 19:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have searched and when I made this table, included those columns but inside of an HTML comment so they wouldn't render. It's kind of silly to keep them there so I removed them when I failed to find any sources. :/ ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate that we can't find sources, it's relevant and interesting info.★Trekker (talk) 23:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 100% agreed and this is probably not a "we" problem, but a "me" problem: I'm not a very smart person. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:34, 18 July 2024 (UTC)