Talk:Haibane Renmei/Archive 1

Quote

 * Some fans have made the conjecture that the Haibane are, actually, children of our world who committed suicide and were reborn into this world to atone for their sin... ABe has neither confirmed nor denied this idea...

I just got back from Anime Detour (Minneapolis, MN) which held a panel including Dr. Marc Hairston, Carrie Savage (Rakka's English voice actress) and Jonathan Klein (producer/director of the English version). One of them (Klein, I think) said ABe had in fact denied this, and it was only Reki's death that he had a clear idea of while writing, although he encouraged people to reflect upon their own interpretations. I know Wikipedia isn't the place for original research, but it's also not the place for false statements -- should the note about ABe just be removed? piman 07:39, 2005 Mar 14 (UTC)

Manga vs. anime
Hmm, bloody heck. I just realised that the text of the plot may have been based on the manga, not the anime. (I've only seen the latter.) Could I get confirmation on this? If so, I've just gone and mangled what might have been a fine synopsis of the manga with a synopsis of the anime. If it turns out that's what happened, I'd be happy to go through and separate out my changes into a 'differences between the manga and the anime' section. Is a large revert in order? And if so, is that just to the Synopsis section, or have I gone and mangled the Context and interpretation section, too? (I notice that at least one part of that section mentions 'the last episode', so maybe it's not so bad.) -- Wisq 05:39, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

Haibane and the Seven Deadly Sins
In a theory proposed by Otaku Sempai Seth Weiner and by Wraith on the Haibane Renmei fan website Sekai no Hajimari, the main character Haibane are said to be representations of the Seven Deadly Sins. The sin that each of these Haibane depict thus determines the nature of the trials that each of them must face. According to the theory, the Haibane-Deadly Sin depictions are as follows:

Reki - Pride

Rakka - Gluttony

Nemu - Sloth

Kuu - Envy

Kana - Avarice

Hikari - Lust

Midori - Wrath

Some of these combinations are not outrighly obvious. Hikari, for example, does not represent lust in the way many would initially think. In Weiner's version of this theory, proposed during an Otaku panel discussion of the Haibane Renmei series shortly after it was released, the depiction of lust through Hikari is entirely indirect, accounting for key aspects of her character including her innate clumsiness and mischievious personality. According to Wraith, Hikari's poor impulse control and short temper are also key indicators of Lust.

On the other hand, the representation of Avarice through Kana is much more direct. In Kana's case, avarice is represented, not as love of money, but as love of the mechanical over the spiritual/social. According to Wraith, Kana's trial is to learn how to 'stop and smell the roses.'

Again using Hikari as his prime example, Weiner also goes on to try to use this theory as an indicator to judge the relative length of time it will take for each Haibane to achieve their days of flight. In what he refers to as the 'Hikari Principle,' Weiner states that the length of time it takes for a Haibane to achieve the day of flight is directly relative to how difficult the sin depicted through said Haibane is to overcome. For example, according to Catholic scripture, pride and lust are two of the most difficult sins to overcome. This would explain extraordinary length of time it took Reki to overcome her trial and thus achieve her day of flight. If we apply this principle to Hikari (who is a four year old Haibane at the start of the series), it is plausible to assume that she could continue to remain in Guri for several more years.

Wraith's complete version of the above theory can be found at http://cff.ssw.net/index.htm. It is important to note that this theory, although extremely plausible, is probably not what ABe had in mind.

What Google tells me
Google translates the Japanese characters of the title as "ash feather", which I think is better than "charcoal" (has more resonance in English) - Eyeresist 08:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 灰 means "ash" (primarily). However, if ABe decided to translate it "charcoal", well, it's his work, so he can do that. Even though I agree with you that "ash" would be a better translation, charcoal usually being more black than ashgrey. Or "ashen", as in "grey like ash". Or you could follow the Japanese way of representing colour. 赤 designates the concept "red", from which you can derive things: 赤い means "red" (adjective), 赤色 "the colour red", or simply "red" (noun), 赤軍 "the Red Army", 赤松 "red pine". Since 灰色 is a common term for "(the colour) grey", you might as well translate 灰羽 as "grey feather" or "grey wing". I couldn't find 灰い in the dictionary, but then again "ashen" is not a very common word either. But original research is not allowed in articles, so I'm afraid we'll have to keep this to the talk page. Shinobu 06:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. My knowledge of Japanese is nonexistent, so I can't comment on that, but I would argue that in English 'charcoal' simply means 'burnt wood', whereas 'ash' suggests death or absolute destruction.  So possible ABe would change his mind if his English was better! - Eyeresist 03:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * For clarification, there is no such word as 灰い. The adjectival version is 灰色の. "Ash Feather" would be a better English translation of the Japanese word. "Grey Wing" is probably closest to the intent, and it's also what the name was translated to in other languages (e.g. "Ailes Grise"). But "Charcoal Feathers" is how ABe writes it, and he's the boss!
 * Perhaps. Shinobu 00:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese word for Charcoal is 木炭 which is quite different (and specifically refers to burnt wood) so I think that we are justified in changing the page to read "Ash". It doesn't matter if th title doesn't specifically state that it means the color of Ash as it could mean ash as in ashes. - perfectblue 19:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Manga still running?
The info box indicates that the manga is still running. To my knowledge, only five Haibane comics were ever released ("Haibane Renmei", "Haibane in Old Home 1", "Haibane in Old Home 2", "Haibane Diary" and "Haibane in Old Home Extra"), the last one being in 2003. Can anybody find a source that indicates it's still going on in 2006?


 * The Manga was never concluded, but I don't think that it is still in production. - perfectblue 18:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * ABe still releases sets of scripts with notes and line sketches called "Haibane Renmei Scenario Collections" at each Comiket since the series finished airing. The first of these was released at the Summer '04 Comiket, and has continued since then.  In that sense, he's still producing HR-related material.  Musashi1600 09:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Episode list
I've just posted a list of the episode titles, and I'm working on the kanji and romanizations right now. Almost done with that; I'm also going to check for the official translations of the titles and tweak accordingly. Does anyone know where we can find air dates? --Masamage 04:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Astonishingly, I found those in very short order and worked out my uncertainties with the Japanese, so it's all there! I'm 98% sure of it, but if anyone actually fluent in Japanese wants to check my work that would be much appreciated. I was mostly just working with a really good dictionary. --Masamage 04:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Now I'm working on expanding it with mini-summaries (I have 10 done) and maybe screenshots. Just FYI. If we put up a list of DVDs and albums it could even become a new List of Haibane Renmei media article. --Masamage 18:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've now finished this and added it to the article. We've got a Category:Haibane Renmei media now, too. --Masamage 20:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use troubles
None of the images in this article have fair-use rationales, and a few of them would be invalid for it even if they tried. Right now it's mostly just decorative screenshots.

I think the characters one is fine, though it needs to be shrunk significantly. I also think that, to add some variety and stay away from too many screenshots, the shot of Rakka and Reki should be replaced with the very pretty color picture from the doujinshi. We need a discussion of the doujinshi anyway (I think I can provide one), but for now I think it would be best placed in the Haibane section, since it's a clear image with their wings and halos. The picture that's there now, Rakka in sunlight, is extremely washed out and, I think, should also be removed and replaced with something else.

Those are my thoughts. I have the doujin shot ready to upload if there's no objection; meanwhile, I'll shrink the characters image. --Masamage 17:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing stuff
I think we should try and trim the "Context and interpretation" section down and then fill it back up with verifiable stuff; right now it's just packed with speculation.

I've already removed the "seven deadly sins" thing because the website that presents that theory states explicitly that it's "definitely not" what ABe had in mind. I'm also chopping the bit that tries to connect Days of Flight with the appearance of cocoons. Reki says there hasn't been a Day of Flight in a long time; meanwhile, there had been four "older" births in the previous five years, not to mention whatever number of the kids. If each of those births had coincided with a Day of Flight, even roughly, that would have been at least four such Days since Kuramori's, including one around the time Kuu was born two years before. That seems like a lot, and fairly recently, for something that supposedly hasn't happened in a while. All this being the case, the theory is extremely unlikely and would need verification to be notable.

The thing about them all being suicides should stay only if we can find the source where ABe specifically says that that isn't true, because that's useful information.

If anything else seems like it needs snipping, mention it here so we all know what everyone else is doing. --Masamage 22:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree - the Seven Deadly Sins is a rather implausible and strained interpretation to be sure, and is just some guy trying to advance his own theory which seems to be a series of huge reaches, attributing characteristics to the characters that aren't demonstrated, implicitly or explicitly. But think the page as it stands when I read it (early April 1) is fine and a good source to people who visit the page. I could understand if a separate article for interpretation was created though. I changed one thing - Under the section "Sin-bound Haibane, I changed anomie to "feeling of abandonment and isolation," which may not be the best descriptor, but anomie, which has a *measure* of legitimacy in its own right, to me conveys a sense of amorality that doesn't really apply to Rakka's state of mind. If anyone disagrees or has a better phrase, be my guest. 07:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Haibane Renmei Userboxes
I've created a collection of userboxes for those who like this series. Simmaren 17:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've just found out there's a page on Wikipedia that lists anime-related userboxes, so I'm including these there. Musashi1600 (talk) 11:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Midori
Can anyone find and add the relevant information concerning Midori to the "Character" section. She is as important as Hiyoko to the story and should be on the list. Simmaren 12:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can do that. I'm about to go offline, but I can get it in a few hours. --Masamage ♫ 16:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding this. The entry looks good. Simmaren 22:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Questions for Discussion
1. Consider the following language from the section "Haibane":


 * "Haibane may be any age when they come into the world. They always have a sense that they used to live in another place and were someone else, but they cannot remember where or who."


 * The first statement seems incorrect. Haibane (as opposed to the townspeople) appear all to be children or teenagers. Those who arrive as young children may grow into teenagers, but there do not seem to be adults among the Haibane. Perhaps adulthood is the threshold by which Haibane must either achieve their Day of Flight or go into exile?


 * Perhaps I am not recalling something, but the second statement {"They always have a sense...") seems to be poorly based. It appears to be true of Rakka, but I don't remember that others said that it was their experience as well. Even if one or two of the others mentioned similar feelings, that would not be a basis to make a universal statement like this. The third statement ("They cannot remember...") does seems to be generally true.


 * Let me know what you think (or what I've missed). Simmaren 01:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would agree about the children part. As for the other, I would think the amnesia bit is characteristic of all Haibane, but most of them just adjust and stop thinking about it. I believe Rakka mentions trying to remember stuff to Kana when they come back from the clocktower and Kana says something like, "You're weird to talk about stuff like that. I know what you mean, though." It's been a while since I've watched it, however, so I might be misremembering. --OGoncho 19:18, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

2. Consider the following language from the section "Haibane":


 * "Her [Reki's] dream is revealed to her as a gift from the Haibane Renmei, but its destructive nature only serves to drive her into a self-loathing frenzy."


 * I think what was intended here is a reference to Reki's "true name," which Rakka brings to Reki as a gift from the Communicator in the last episode. I'm not sure about the reference to "its destructive nature." Perhaps I'll watch the last episode again to try to untangle this. In any case, does anyone mind if I change the reference from "dream" to "true name"? Simmaren 23:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'd say "true name" is really what is meant. "To be run over and torn asunder" is how the dub translates her name, which is what the dream is about, and the dream is then called forth, so I can understand the confusion. --OGoncho 05:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I will look at this episode again and then try to rework the language to clarify it. Simmaren 11:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

We probably shouldn't make any assumptions about whether or not newborn Haibane can be adults, as there's zero evidence. It might just be uncommon, or it might never happen at all; since we don't know for sure, the article shouldn't contain speculation. --Masamage ♫ 05:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Your added language seems fine to me. Simmaren 11:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Context and interpretation section
Since that whole section has been tagged as needing citation for the past 6 months, I'm removing it entirely. At any rate, what it talks about is almost pure conjecture, particularly regarding the names of the haibane and nature of their wings and halos. The only part I see that can be saved is the mention of Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, but that will need a proper citation. Someone else can put that part back in once they have the necessary info. Musashi1600 09:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's a mistake to remove an entire section for reasons of lack of cite: how can anyone add a citation to text which doesn't exist? People need something to build on. Without the real world context such as literary origins the article becomes seriously unbalanced, being more of an episode guide than an encyclopaedia article. Samatarou (talk) 04:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem was that because it lacked references, the bulk of that section could've been simple conjecture from fans (like myself), and that does not belong in an encyclopedia article. If it was something published in a widely distributed magazine or a respected website, then it would be worth keeping.  Musashi1600 (talk) 07:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly right, and that's the rules anyway; the relevant policy is WP:OR. There is some study of it; it's just hard to find. I read a big magazine feature on Haibane Renmei recently, looking for this stuff, but they wouldn't spoil the ending, so they couldn't offer any theories. It was disappointing. :P Still, gotta keep looking. --Masamage ♫ 16:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're so inclined, the University of Minnesota Press publishes two collections of essays that critically discuss and analyze specific anime titles or certain aspects of anime, and one of those collections has an essay about Haibane Renmei. The ISBN you're looking for is 978-0-8166-5266-2, the editor is Frenchy Lunning, and the author of the essay in question is Marc Hairston.  (I haven't been able to read a copy of this myself, but it's a promising source of analysis.)  Musashi1600 (talk) 06:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have access to a major university library in Chicago and can obtain the Lunning book (titled Emerging Worlds of Anime and Manga) in a week or ten days. I'd be happy to undertake a review of the article and some writing based on anything it has to offer. If someone else has already started, please let me know. Incidentally, Mushashi1600, I'd be interested in information concerning the other title that doesn't have an essay specific to Haibane Renmei. Simmaren (talk) 18:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have started a "Bibliography" section and renamed the "References" section as "Notes" to better distinguish the two. Simmaren (talk) 23:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have at home the book by Napier listed in the Bibliography. It has a significant discussion of Haibane Renmei and makes comparisons with other contemporary anime - Lain, Spirited Away, and Revolutionary Girl Utena, plus a bit of Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World. If the Lunning book has as much material, there will be enough to "rough out" a good, well-sourced "Context and interpretation" section. Simmaren (talk) 23:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In hindsight, I probably should've included the title of the book I was referring to. The book you're thinking about is the first Mechademia collection, and the Haibane Renmei essay is in the second, which is Mechademia 2: Networks of Desire.  Musashi1600 (talk) 10:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. I will obtain the book and prepare a draft on a separate work page in my sandbox. When I have something worth looking at, I'll post a link here. Because I am at the moment heavily involved in revising the Jane Austen articles, it may be a bit before I surface with this. Simmaren (talk) 00:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)