Talk:Haile Selassie/Archive 3

Modernization under Haile Selassie
Modernization under Haile Selassie is currently short and unreferenced. Shall we merge it to a section here, where it can have more eyes on it, hopefully to improve it? Thanks, Altered Walter (talk) 09:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * No, that article has just now been started and needs to be given a chance to grow. You don't rip up seedlings from the very minute they're planted (unless you are Sheriff John Brown) I don't understand why you have seemingly been antagonistic to this article literally within minutes of its creation by another user. An article with that scope could easily surpass the current size of this one; there are abundant references surviving from a long reign. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think I've been antagonistic, and I'm not proposing to "rip up" anything: just to move it to a section in this article. I have no opinion on the life and work of Haile Selassie, but "modernize" is a rather loaded term, and I don't expect every reader would see all the legislation listed as modernization. Since it's short and unreferenced, why not let it grow here, and when it's big enough split it away, with a more neutral title, such as Ethiopia during the 20th century or Ethiopia during the rule of Haile Selassie? Thanks, Altered Walter (talk) 14:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to merge as of yet, don't you get it? It hasn't been written yet. The only paragraph there was lifted from this article, so at this point, "merging" would be tantamount to outright deleting because you object to describing Haile Selassie's career as "modernizing". A move proposal isn't really the way to deal with that kind of objection. You need to allow a reasonable amount of time being patient while that article takes form, before you rush in and want everything done your way at once. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Want everything done your way at once" is not at all a fair description of what I've done here. I've changed no content at all, apart from adding category tags. I did tag the page for single point of view and unref, 20 minutes after it was created, and you removed the SPOV tag. Two days later I proposed merge here, and you removed that mergeto tag from the article too. Have I broken the letter or spirit of any WP guidelines? Please WP:Assume good faith: I am trying to improve the article. Altered Walter (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, would you be willing to give it a few days then, I am sure this can be developed into a full, multi-pov article in the new Ethiopian history series before long. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:29, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Certainly! Let's talk again in the first week of January, in case the article's creator is taking a break over Christmas. Thanks, Altered Walter (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I wlll expand this article over the next few weeks. This is an attempt to complete the History of Ethiopia series. Modernization under Haile Selassie is only a working title as that is what the info box referred to it. I will reconsider the title later. However, merging it would be completely counter productive. This article will have less to do with Haile Selassie and more about political and economic development in early to mid twentieth century. That is just too long a title right now. Sorry, I have been busy restarting the Ethiopia WikiProject. I will get back to this soon. አቤል ዳዊት (talk) 08:05, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Press photo available
There's another nice photo available. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Quotefarm
This article includes a large quotefarm, which is claimed to have consensus...somewhere (link please?). However, all of the quotes are on Wikiquote, and it would be more appropriate to leave that content on that site rather than include it here. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought this had been already discussed here once, but apparently not. If you read the nature of the quotes and their significance to understanding the topic, especially the thinking and philosophy of the Emperor, and to international world affairs during the time frame 1930-1974, I strongly feel shuffling them off to wikiquote where many readers are less likely to click, would be doing this article more of a disservice to learning about the topic, despite what someone wrote at WP:QUOTEFARM. One of the most important and notable things about Haile Selassie I is the quality of speeches he is remembered for giving, in his addresses to the United Nations, the U.S. Congress, etc. and this section is a sample selection of some of his most important teachings ever.  He is regarded as such a highly important figure in African History as one of the principle architects of Post-WWII Decolonialization and the OAU, that his words ought to be allowed to remain on his page as a notable exception to any generic guideline to the contrary, and I would be perfectly willing to request for comments on this to sound out wider consensus. Regards, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Til is right, the quotes are appropriate and of interest to the reader. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it would be more helpful to the reader to have the quotes contextualized and supported by article content, rather than isolated and unexplained in a separate section. Ideally, we would have reliable secondary sources discussing these quotes/speeches. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds fine. Just make sure if you want to remove a quote rather than change its context that you open a discussion here. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:55, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Date of the 1963 speech (the famous "War speech")

 * I realized that the date given in the article was wrong : it was originally "6 october 1963", as it appears in Important utterances of HIM emperor Haile Selassie I (p. 460-471). But this date is wrong. A quick look to the NY Times archives shows that Haile Selassie I adressed the general assembly on the 4th of October 1963. The UN photos archives tell the same. --Jahsensie (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Good work. The 6th was a Sunday, making it highly unlikely to have occurred on that day but please add your sources as refs to the article. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Haile Selassie I → Haile Selassie – Per COMMONNAME (No one says "Haile Selassie the first"). Charles Essie (talk) 17:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose - Most people in fact do say "Haile Selassie the First", because that is the common name and the officially correct name. On whose behalf are you speaking when you say "no one"? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * On whose behalf are you speaking when you say "Most people"? How do you know what most people say? Srnec (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I know what people say who know anything about it, I also know what people say who don't know anything about it or if they do get some infantile pleasure from forcing it to be wrong, and you don't seem to be in the first category. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:59, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I, too, know what people say who know anything about it. I cited some of them who've written books below. Srnec (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Since there is no Haile Selassie II and the name is distinctive (in English), there is no need use the numeral. Srnec (talk) 16:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * But it is not the correct name, it is incorrect not to use the correct and most common name. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What's incorrect about it? My brother I call "John", but his birth certificate does not say just "John". I suppose I am being incorrect? Srnec (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case the I is part of the name, unlike with King John, so it should not be omitted from the title. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about King John. I suppose you think his mother named him Haile Selassie I? I wonder how he ever got near the palace with such an auspicious name. Srnec (talk) 20:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't suppose anything like that. That's how you run off with a false premise.  His baptismal name is irrelevant fpr article title purpose, we are using his regnal name, which is unequivocally "Haile Selassie I" and was internationally recognised as such. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The protocol for British monarchs is always to omit any numeral as long as there is only one instance of the name, hence "John", "Mary" etc. rather than "John I" or "Mary I".  It would be incorrect to apply the British protocol in this case. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * We are not required to follow monarchical protocol in all cases. After all, James VI and I isn't his name any way you look at it. Srnec (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Adding the ordinal is superfluous and probably wrong, given that there is no HS II. I appreciate that it is used in many references (not all) but that does not make it correct. The usage is common because people infer incorrectly from the names of other monarchs, e.g. Elizabeth II, that the ordinal is required for someone of that rank. It could only be 'correct' if it can be shown that he was crowned as such, i.e. that his title in Amharic did in fact use the otherwise superfluous number. Imc (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are in error; that is not the reason "Haile Selassie I" is the most wp:common form in this case, and in the case of Ethiopian Emperors. The regnal name in Amharic is properly "Qedemawi Haile Selassie" where "Qedemawi" is a word that means "the First" and the standard protocol for translating this in proper English is always "Haile Selassie I" and never appeared without the I in any diplomatic or official usage, nor that of anyone familiar with this topic. So once again we should go with the name that is 1) more common and 2) most correct, and not an incorrect form. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK then, any references for the standard protocol including the numeral in Amharic? For myself, I lived in Ethiopia for a time as a child, during his rule, and as I remember he was always Emperor Haile Selassie in English (not saying that I would necessarily remember any use of the numeral). Imc (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How about the English translation of My Life and Ethiopia's Progress for example, I think it always has the I wherever the name appears. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 22:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: For what it's worth, a cursory browsing of contemporary news accounts shows both "Haile Selassie"  or "Haile Selassie I"  were commonly used. (Strictly speaking, wouldn't the correct name be "His Imperial Majesty the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Haile Selassie I, Elect of God, Emperor of Ethiopia?" Though presumably WP:HONORIFIC rules this out.) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * News headlines often get it entirely wrong out of ignorance, I saw one from 1935 reading "Haile Reserves Decision on Gamble" referring to him as just "Haile" so I doubt that method can settle much. Nobody is suggesting moving to a page with all of those honorific titles, which would be inappropriate per wp:honorific, and they are not really part of the name but titles.  But a dynastic numeral on the other hand -is- part of the name and should certainly be included where it is part of the name as in this case. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note also Haile Selassie I University, Haile Selassie I Theatre, Haile Selassie I International Airport that were all named after him and built under his auspices, often it is abbreviated HSI, or as QHS Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 00:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Support The proposed title is clearly the COMMONNAME and it does not require disambiguation. WP:NCROY is a guideline that explicitly admits of exceptions, not an inflexible rule. Neljack (talk) 02:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How is it clearly the COMMONNAME? Did I miss something?  The current title is clearly not only the COMMONNAME but the correct name of the individual, and the proposed name is a misnomer and less common. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * See this Ngram, which shows that it is the common name (even subtracting the red line from the blue) and that it refers almost unambiguously to this guy. Nobody is buying this "misnomer" crap. Srnec (talk) 13:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Srnec, you can only speak for one person, yourself. Why do you attempt to speak on behalf of everyone else by saying "Nobody is buying this "misnomer" crap"???  Congratulations, you just proved something is "crap" and a "misnomer" by using Appeal to Google. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC) Haile Selassie is also a common Ethiopian name, so I'm sure some references do not refer to Haile Selassie I. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:59, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a common name, yes, but it is almost completely absent from English books until after Ras Tafari Makonnen's rise (cf. Ngram). This suggests that it overwhelmingly refers to the emperor, as I said. Srnec (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * In the ACLS Humanities E-Book collection, I get "Haile Selassie I" 13 times in 7 monographs and just "Haile Selassie" 150 times in 46 monographs. Rastafari: Roots and Ideology by Barry Chevannes prefers "Haile Selassie", using the numeral only once when referring to his coming to the throne (not the first mention). "Hayla-Sellase" appears 85 times in 2 monographs, including A History of Modern Ethiopia, 1855–1991 by Bahru Zewde. Srnec (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Til. He isnt just a historical figure but a religious figure and the fact that as a religious figure he is known as Haile Selassie I (as can be demonstrated in secondary references) should definitely carry weight in this debate, I fear too little weight has been given to him as a religious figure till now in this debate. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 22:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What does his being a religious figure have to do with his regnal number? Srnec (talk) 13:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Err, common usage. As a politician and Emperor from almost 40 yrs back his name isnt used commo0nly much in 2013, as a religious figure, God for up to a million ppl, his name is very commonly used in 2013 and the common usage is Haile Selassie I (with the I pronounced as in the first person) so all these support using commonname as a justification are simply wrong. Very depressing to see such ignmorance and contempt for Selassie as a religious figure appearing on wikipedia, sigh♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You have provided no evidence of common usage. Others have provided reliable sources, results from Google Ngrams and results from searches on academic source collections. Moreover, calling him just "Haile Selassie" instead of "Haile Selassie the First" no more shows contempt for him as a religious figure than just "Jesus" (instead of "Jesus Christ") shows contempt for him as a religious figure. Srnec (talk) 04:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Err, Christ is a title, not remotely the same, You can try this though the best explanation fo the importance of the I in Haile Selassie I that I have read is in Joseph Owens' book, Dread. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct Squeakbox, and in logical terms, "Christ" here is a "flawed analogy" being used to drive a fallacious conclusion. 1) Regardless of how some prefer to read or pronounce it, the I is properly a dynastic Roman numeral translating Amharic Qedemawi ("the first"). 2) The I is part of the complete regnal name. 3) Wikipedia always includes dynastic numerals as part of the regnal name if they are part of the regnal name 4) It is part of the regnal name here, in this case 5) Some people don't like that fact (See WP:IDONTLIKEIT) Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:29, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The link SqueakBox provided says nothing about the importance of the ordinal in Rastafarianism. I have not read Dread, can SqueakBox quote a pertinent passage?
 * This all has nothing to do with Wikipedia's guidelines on naming, however. Can Til point me to a guideline that says "Wikipedia always includes dynastic numerals as part of the regnal name if they are part of the regnal name"? I cannot find it in WP:NCROY. Srnec (talk) 00:19, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * We use the regnal name by policy. That is why, if we have Juan Carlos I and John Paul I in the article title, there is no sound reason for omitting it here, for exactly the same reasons.  I is a dynastic numeral and if it is part of the regnal name, it is part of the regnal name.  This has come up a few times before if you check the archives. Imposing the convention for British monarchs on an Ethiopian king should not be acceptable any more than for the current Spanish king. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * So it's not in WP:NCROY? Got it. Srnec (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you want to selectively focus on your chosen "factoid" but if I say anything that doesn't support what you are attempting to foist, it's a case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Once again:  Juan Carlos I.  This article cannot be moved if that one is allowed to remain, regardless of what wikipedians vote. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well wikipedians are voting not to have any consensus here and the default is to not move♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 01:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This article cannot be moved if that one is allowed to remain, regardless of what wikipedians vote. That's not how it works, and you know it. (I have no idea what "factoid" you're talking about. Why don't you discuss the sources I cited that prefer to omit the numeral?) Srnec (talk) 02:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I know "how it works" according to you: Spain need not conform to the convention for British monarchs' regnal names, but Ethiopia can be made to. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 04:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That seems to be the part you have absolutely no knowledge of, but you will need to do some homework and research to find the answers because there is not enough room here. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is non-sense. Many people in Ethiopia can be named Haile Selassie, but Tafari Makonnen was crowned as Haile Selassie the first (Qedamawi), and nothing else. What if royalty was coming back in Ethiopia, with a king named Haile Selassie II (Degmawi) ? There should be another debate to rename this page ? --Jahsensie (talk) 13:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many people named Napoleon as well. Srnec (talk) 20:55, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Very strongly oppose as he was known officially in all languages with the ordinal, even in Amharic. There is no "requirement" whatsoever mandating in what contexts a monarch can or cannot use an ordinal. Indeed, in the British court case MacCormick v Lord Advocate it was ruled the British monarch had the right to use any kind of ordinal they so pleased. Obviously this does not apply to Ethiopia in any legal sense but it shows there is nothing dictating the usage of ordinals. So that is a wholly invalid justification. Furthermore, it is my impression that royals have their articles titled according to their actual title rather than common usage - i.e. Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge and not Kate, Duchess of Cambridge. Furthermore, one cannot use the occurrence of a more casual name as invalidation of the usage of the proper name - if one were to compare usage of "King Juan Carlos" to "King Juan Carlos I" the occurrence of the non-ordinal title does not negate the proper one! Finally, I brought it up elsewhere, but if for wikipedia Chelsea Manning's self-identification is paramount, why is it not here? I am in full accordance with Til Eulenspiegel  and shall making sure no move is made.--Simfan34 (talk) 06:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Much more commonly known without the ordinal than with it.--Cúchullain t/ c 22:49, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Where to contest improper move result
The result of this move did not indicate a clear consensus and also resulted in a title that applies British protocol to Ethiopia, while not applying it to Spain and her monarch Juan Carlos I. All of this was explained and the only reason offered in favor of the move was an ngram, illegitimate per WP:SOURCECOUNTING a well as skewered. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Given that if you read the RM it is clear that 4 editors oppose and 4 editors support this has to be the most disgraceful closure I have seen in my 9+ yrs at wikipedia, and certainly should be contested at Move review. I suggest solely contesting on the grounds that actually there is no consensus whatsoever. ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 00:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It was a good close. There was no actual response to the claim that the name more commonly appears in sources without the ordinal than with it.--Cúchullain t/ c 04:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That does not prove justification on its own. There must be a way to a place to contest this, I know consensus is not a requirement but this is shameful. Til Eulenspiegel, please keep me informed of proceedings. --Simfan34 (talk) 05:25, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have opened a contestation at Move review. Simfan34 (talk) 05:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Cuchullain, as long as there is a complete lack of consensus (4 supporting, 4 opposing) it doesnt matter what claims were made♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 14:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The strength of the argument absolutely does matter; this isn't a headcount. But even still I see 5 supports and 3 opposes, and one that makes no recommendation. The supports were also more strongly grounded in policy and provided evidence that the proposed name is more common.--Cúchullain t/ c 05:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

pictures
are they the right pictures? because it looks like he grows from a black child into a 50 yearold spaniard en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lij_Tafari_Makonnen_(edit).jpg  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haile_Selassie_in_full_dress.jpg

I never saw a Spaniard who looked like that. Selassie probably spent a lot of time indoors, safe from the harsh climate of Ethiopia. He still looks black though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.52.127.57 (talk) 21:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

1960s - "reform"
"The coup spurred Haile Selassie to accelerate reform, which was manifested in the form of land grants to military and police officials." That's not reform, that's the opposite! I appreciate the possible attempt at sarcasm but it's probably not appropriate here. Dichohecho (talk) 13:23, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Legacy
How come this article doesn't have a section dedicated to his legacy or contemporary assessments of his rule? Don't we always have something like that for articles about important historical figures? Charles Essie (talk) 02:46, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * please be bold and add the information which you think is missing. Jonpatterns (talk) 07:54, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Education missing
There is nothing about his education. He was educated by private European tutors and Liverpool University. I think this is worth mentioning. http:// www.notablebiographies.com/Sc-St/Selassie-Haile.html http://www.ethiopiancrown.org/emperors.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:5805:A00:9C9D:6AB3:CBF8:A317 (talk) 10:44, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Photo change
I changed the photo image of Selassie one that is clearer and more representative of the individual. The image itself also appears to have been a more "official" photo on par with that of Nicolas II and George V, and thus more appropriate for the article. Vivaporius (talk) 17:27, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

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Categories
I question the reason for the "categories" section of this article being longer (and in some cases significantly so) than those for folks like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Shakespeare, Gandhi, and Jesus. I seem to recall that, several years ago, some of this excess was reined in. But the page again seems to have become a devotional exercise by a few admirers rather than an encyclopedia article. PurpleChez (talk) 15:22, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * There seems to have been a tremendous improvement in this article. I hope it lasts. PurpleChez (talk) 15:14, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

What name for him should be used in the article?
I see "Ras Tafari Makonnen", "Ras Tafari", "Tafari", and "Haile Selassie". I may have missed a variant. We should only use one. Doug Weller talk 14:41, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The name used corresponds to what he was called during each period of time. --Varavour (talk) 11:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

hoax photograph
The photo that claims to be of Queen Elizabeth bowing was taken by Alfred Eisenstaedt in 1955 for LIFE Magazine. Queen Elizabeth did not travel to Ethiopia in 1955. If we put these two facts together, the statement under the photo is therefore unequivocally false. https://hoaxeye.com/2019/03/31/haile-selassie-and-queen-elizabeth-ii/amp/ (Unsigned - by Special:Contributions/86.13.132.116)


 * Thanks for this - I have removed it and reported the photo on Wikimedia. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Destruction of Haile Selassie statue in London
I just saw a breaking BBC story: Haile Selassie: Statue of former Ethiopian leader destroyed in London park.

The story may be relevant to editors on this page, as it relates to aligations that ethnic Oromos's were oppressed under the reign of Haile Selassie.

The story said that 100 people went to Cannizaro Park in Wimbledon and destroyed the statue. This may be related to Ethiopia over the murder of Hachalu Hundessa. Big Mac (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The Derg being referred to as CIA and Israel supported
As of Dec 26, 2020 4PM EST, the third paragraph of the article stated that the Derg was supported by the CIA, USSR, and Israel. The source provided (https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP97S00289R000100170015-5.pdf) did not make reference to any of these facts, except stating that the USSR was interested in getting closer to the new regime. Possible vandalization? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1tephania (talk • contribs) 21:22, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Dubious
When discussing exceptional claims of descent, such as at Emperor of Japan, wikipedia ensures that traditions or myths are framed accordingly. This article makes absurd claims about very ancient, mythical rulers that are not supported by any academic scholars. Anything before Yekuno Amlak is ahistorical, almost certainly invented later in medieval hagiographies. DrKay (talk) 14:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Titles and Styles
DrKay, the references in the section "Titles and Styles" you're concerned about are accurate. The issue was that the label "dubious" was applied by default to a newer reference because it was created just recently, it was a written transcript of the audio interview conducted by the Canadian Broadcasting Company in 1967 aboard the Royal Train which was already cited. Anyone can verify the accuracy of the transcript if they take the time to listen to the audio recording which is about two hours long. This is why I initially found it unnecessary to start a new section on the Talk page, I've reverted the edit back in once again thanks for all you do.

Audio of the interview: https://www.mixcloud.com/LightandPeaceonImperialVoice/light-and-peace-episode-5-him-emperor-haile-selassie-i-royal-train-interview-canada-1967/ Transcript of the interview: https://cbcroyaltraininterview.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-order-of-primus-st.html

Czar Petar I (talk) 21:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This doesn't address my opening comment. DrKay (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you're referring to then and I just noticed that Sir Charles Rey's book is now labeled "dubious" as well. That book contains an English translation of a numbered list of Ethiopian monarchs given to Rey by the Emperor which he then published which is why the page numbers are cited the way they are if that's what you were wondering, please let me know. Czar Petar I (talk) 22:00, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to exceptional claims of descent, as I pointed out in my opening comment. Selassie wasn't really the 334th ruler (or the 134th or the 225th). It was all made up later on, in the same way as other mythical royal descents. Such claims need to be framed appropriately: as claims not facts, as traditional beliefs not reality. DrKay (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok I see where the confusion was now, your subsection "Dubious" was in reference to the historicity of Ethiopian rulers got it. Well the Emperor Ezana is considered to be the first christian Ethiopian ruler so "134th Christian ruler" is actually considered historical by scholars as Ethiopian rulers are attested in record starting from the 8th century BCE. This does however exclude Menelik I (first Solomonic ruler, 10th century BCE) which would mean that the "225th Solomonic ruler" and "334th ruler of Ethiopia" would be questionable according to the archaeological recrods, you have a point.

POV
The current version of this article is a vast improvement on earlier versions, which were far too caught up in reporting Selassie's supposed divinity as if it were scientific fact. Nonetheless, some bits and pieces of that era remain. Perhaps the most obvious is the scriptural quote at the head of the "rastafari messiah" section. This passage is presented entirely out of context and has no apparent relevance to the topic being discussed. Rather, it seems to be an attempt to create an aura of holiness around the subject, which is completely un-encyclopedic. PurpleChez (talk) 03:12, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Who was "Lord Meork"?
I find the reference to Haile Selassie sending donations to the British National Distress Fund to deal with flood relief in 1947 almost tempting to dismiss as a vandalism but the presence of citation to a newspaper keeps me from doing this. Most incredible is that the letter was addressed to a contact person of the fund called Lord Meork, a title of which has not existed in the British peerages. (The name looks like one inspired by the fictional Robin Williams TV comedy character 'Mork from Planet Ork'.) I note the veracity of the charity letter is questioned in a now archived talkpoint.(titled 'Haile Selassie Charity Experience').Cloptonson (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion
Mutiple sources can't agree on Haile Selassie's father last name nor ethnicity (on his father side), several sources say Amhara, Oromo or Tigray. Makonnen Wolde Mikael only undisputed lineage is his Amhara mother, daughter of Sahle Selassie. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 10:23, 8 March 2022 (UTC)


 * If Haile Selassie's paternal lineage is disputed then the article should state that and include references. You cannot change the information without including sources. The source that says his father's father was Oromo has been included in the article, if you have sources that are different you need to include and state that his paternal lineage is disputed. Czar Petar I (talk) 10:30, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I can change that since numerous sources challenges it, lets reach consensus, no way your change would be agreed upon since numerous sources say something else than Oromo. Only certainty is his mother side. It's even disputed on Makonnen Wolde Mikael article. Added also Haile Selassie self identification Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 11:09, 8 March 2022 (UTC)


 * it seems almost certain that Makonnen Wolde Mikael was mixed, his mother a certainty, his father is disputed on even the name, let alone his paternal ethnicity with sources saying Oromo, Tigray (and Amhara). Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 11:17, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Dawit S Gondaria I've updated the section to reflect all the varying sources, let me know if it's acceptable. Czar Petar I (talk) 11:48, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Consensus is found, thank you! Happy editing! Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 11:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Suppression of Languages?
There are contradictory statements about the suppression of various languages under Selassie's rule. Any expert takers on fixing this? Jed (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I removed it. Amharic was the sole language promoted by the state as a result other languages were not tolerated. Magherbin (talk) 07:38, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Amharic was the language used in schools however there was no suppression of languages in day-to-day life, for example, there are videos of Afaan Oromo (one of the most widely spoken languages in Ethiopia) being used in a royal court:. There have also never been any official decrees banning non-Amharic languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EthiopianTarik (talk • contribs) 19:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I concur, I've edited the "Oromo language ban" information at the beginning of the page many times now. Those who continue to edit it usually refuse to have a discussion on the Talk page. Even the sources that I cite are incorrectly included in their edits to support their narrative. Sharia courts also continued to work after 1960 in Imperial Ethiopia and were formally recognized by the government in 1964 (circular n.ɪ/F/4721 of the Ministry of Justice). Most of the misinformation about language suppression seems to be politically motivated however. Every single language law and policy from the Haile Selassie era is explained and expanded upon in Bender et al.'s, "Language in Ethiopia" textbook from 1976. Article fourteen of Haile Selassie's Regulations for the Establishment of Missions, 1944 states: "The local languages may be used in the course of ordinary contacts with the local population. Article four of Haile Selassie's 1974 Draft Constitution, which was rejected by the Derg, reiterated: "The official language of Ethiopia is Amharic. However this in no way affects the respect accorded the other languages in the country." Czar Petar I (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * What do Sharia courts have to do with Oromo language? Magherbin (talk) 04:45, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I never said that the Imperial government's recognition of Sharia courts has anything to do with the Oromo language per se. I was simply emphasizing the point that EthiopianTarik had already made with regards to official court proceedings using different languages which further challenges the notion that other languages "weren't tolerated" as Sharia court decisions were written in summary form in Arabic. Tigrinya was also used in the Eritrean courts for example and foreign judges throughout the Empire wrote their decisions in English, Italian etc. Official laws were also drafted and published in English, French and Amharic to which judges would compare translations in cases where Amharic terminology was ambiguous with regards to western legal concepts. Czar Petar I (talk) 11:04, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The topic is Oromo not Tigrinya, English etc and I initially ignored tarik when he posted this, this is the users only edit on wikipedia which is to post a youtube video as evidence. Youtube is not a reliable source. Magherbin (talk) 05:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Motion to Add Context to the Persecution of Harari People
In the opening paragraph this statement is taken out of context from the book that's referenced: "During his rule the Harari people were persecuted and many left the Harari Region." After reviewing the source I updated the text to read: "During his rule the Harari people who aligned themselves with Islamic Somali nationalist political movements were persecuted and many left the Harari Region." You reverted it because "The alliance is irrelevant" even though it's a well-known historical fact that Islamic Somali nationalists were violent secessionists who were at war with the Imperial Ethiopian government. In subsection 2.6 "1940s and 1950s" it stated: "In 1948, the Harari Muslims of Harar peacefully protested against religious oppression; however, the state responded violently. Hundreds were arrested and the entire town of Harar was put under house arrest." However after reviewing that source for the statement I updated the text to read: "In 1948, the Harari Muslims of Harar with Somali allies staged a significant rebellion against the empire; the state responded violently. Hundreds were arrested and the entire town of Harar was put under house arrest." The exact phrase used in the source is "significant rebellion" yet it was replaced with the phrase "peacefully protested." The Emperor's regime continues to be heavily scrutinized and events during that era are misconstrued and taken out of context to this day; not because the scholars' and historians' abilities to cross-reference sources has improved but because of current political turmoil and tribal wars in the region. There's no justification for using the Haile Selassie Wikipedia page to spread political propaganda. If the persecution of Harari people who aligned themselves with violent secessionists and rebelled against the government is important enough to be included in the first section of the page above the fold then the context of the situation should be included. His Majesty said, "Since all men are born free and equal, invested by Almighty God with inalienable human dignity, it is only right and proper that the spirit of human brotherhood should reign supreme among all peoples who inhabit this planet, that differences of race, tribe, language pigmentation, religion, or sex should not be made instruments of discrimination between man and man for all men are equal before the law of creation. The human rights and fundamental freedoms we have mentioned constitute the cornerstones of the constitution of the Ethiopian Empire. The original constitution We voluntarily gave to Our people was clearly based on these same rights and freedoms. But the revised constitution, while not departing from the permanent foundations, amplifies the greater relief and strengthens the human rights and fundamental liberties of the Ethiopian people. In the revised constitution of Ethiopia, the guardianship of fundamental rights and freedoms does not devolve on the courts of law alone, but forms an integral part of Our duties and responsibilities as Sovereign." Therefore I motion to have context added to the persecution of the Harari secessionists per the source that was already cited or I'll accept the removal of the original sentence about their persecution.
 * Mentioning the Somali nationalist alliance is fine for the body but not the introduction and there were no violent uprisings, there were only protests. This source states specifically on p.134 "Kulub or Hanolato used methods of non violent action such as petition (to the government and internationally), marches, and other literary forms of dissent" . I suggest you read all the references before jumping to conclusions, and it had nothing to do with Somalis until after the oppression began, read p.201 and p.203 which actually states "marched peacefully" or "The SYC call for a greater Somalia was initially rejected by a majority of Hararis who supported Harar's independence on its own terms. After some time, however the SYC was able to garner increasing support, mostly due to the repressive government policies in the region" . We are not here to whitewash biographies even if some believe they were benevolent leaders that would do no wrong. This is about what Haile Selassie did, not about the secession movements nor their affiliates. If you want to dwell on that I suggest you create an article about it. Magherbin (talk) 12:29, 9 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't recall arguing here that Haile Selassie was a benevolent leader that could no wrong I merely quoted the man who the Wikipedia article is about (Haile Selassie). Again, the sources you cited are still being taken out of context as you referenced: "The SYC call for a greater Somalia was initially rejected by a majority of Hararis who supported Harar's independence on its own terms. After some time, however the SYC was able to garner increasing support, mostly due to the repressive government policies in the region" why did you cut it short here? The rest of the sentence says, "...repressive government policies in the region, which were a counter-reaction to the fact that a majority of Hararis had collaborated with the Italians from 1936-1941." The same page of the source even states that the UN got involved at one point and rejected any attempts of jeopardizing the territorial integrity of its member state Ethiopia. I take the opportunity to remind you again that context is important. The Hararis attempted to secretly contact a foreign government (Egypt) for support of their secessionist movement. Seditious demonstrations were illegal during Haile Selassie's reign (see Arts. 99, 481, 483 and 715 of the Penal Code of Ethiopia 1957). I encourage you to not conveniently omit information; name one nation on earth that doesn't criminalize sedition. Again, the line in question here is: "During his rule the Harari people were persecuted and many left the Harari Region." Context needs to be added that those Hararis were criminal secessionists who collaborated with foreign governments against the state or it needs to be changed/removed. Czar Petar I (talk) 14:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Attempting to justify why they were persecuted is not relevant, nowhere in the sources are they referred to as criminals you've just used WP:SYNTH to further that. As the sources state these were people who were requesting for rights to be honored, promised during the time of Menelik II and they were denied these rights, hence it escalated. Somalis were not persecuted in Harar during this period hence redundant. You've added the alliance in the body anyway which is fine but as I stated earlier, what you're suggesting doesnt belong in the introduction, the intro is already clogged up with Rastafarian divinity as it is. Readers dont want to know extra details about the Harari Kulub movement, they're here for Haile Selassie and his activities. One more thing you dont edit the article while you're in a dispute and your edit summary was misleading. I just noticed that you've used WP:SYNTH again elsewhere despite numerous references stating Oromo language was banned, you changed the introduction to make an argument that it wasnt banned. Here's the reference from oxford p.361 "seven decades during which writing, preaching, teaching and broadcasting in the oromo language was banned in imperial Ethiopia" & another p.71 "Afaan Oromo was the only language in Africa that was banned from being used for preaching, teaching and production of literature..."  Magherbin (talk) 15:35, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The source that you cited [2] absolutely suggests that they were criminals because they were arrested, tried and imprisoned. His Majesty granting amnesty to certain Kulub delegates in accordance with Arts. 240 and 483 of the Penal Code of Ethiopia 1957 also supports them being labeled as "criminals."[3] The reason Muslim Hararis were denied the rights that were granted to them by Menelik II in 1887 was because they illegally collaborated with the Italian colonialists during the Second Italo-Ethiopian War for five years. After they lost the war they escalated the situation by committing further sedition after being denied their original rights which were given to them when they were law-abiding citizens in 1887. Although many Muslim Somalis, Oromo and Hararis supported Italy's invasion not all Muslims fought on the side of the Italians which is why not all of them were grouped as traitorous criminals when the imperial government was restored.[10] The main reason why the line in question here needs context is because the Emperor is consistently slandered and wrongfully accused of discriminating against certain groups in the region on the basis of ethnicity. For example, the Oromo in Wollo, the Somalis in the Ogaden, the Eritreans etc. etc. context would definitely help the credibility of the article here. It's completely unacceptable as it stands, I suggest the following edit: "During his rule Harari secessionists who collaborated with the Italians during the war were persecuted and many left the Harari region."


 * I'm happy to discuss your sources about alleged language suppression however to keep the Talk page organized please file your language suppression comments in the "Suppression of Languages?" section on the Talk page. Czar Petar I (talk) 13:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The statement is fine the way it is, I think we are going in circles now as you dont seem to understand simple wikipedia guidelines such as using WP:SYNTH, I think i've explained enough here. Magherbin (talk) 16:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ignoring my rebuttals and incorrectly citing WP:SYNTH doesn't mean you're right, I motion for more editors' opinions here and if necessary WP:RFC. Czar Petar I (talk) 16:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Haile Selassie was persecuting Hararis prior to the Italian invasion, Abdullahi Sadiq is an example, Selassie was part of a coup that usurped the throne illegally after the Battle of Segale in which the legitimate Emperor to be Iyasu V was overthrown. I cant keep explaining this, it wasnt about secession in the beginning but autonomy, it only escalated to secession when autonomy was denied. This isnt where you argue or justify what is practically ethnic cleansing. Are we going to start justifying genocide? If we want to elaborate on the events leading up to their exodus, there's a section already for it in the article under the 1940 and 50s section . These weren't criminals or secessionists forced to leave their homeland but ordinary civilians. The arguments you've made here are reminiscent of the justification used by the current Chinese government to crackdown on the entire Uyghurs population claiming to weed out secessionists. Haile Selassie was actively discriminating non Amharic speakers and religious groups including Ethiopian Jews, , this is a fact and is likely the main issue at hand here as you're not aware of this. Magherbin (talk) 22:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The goalpost moves again. You're obviously an Iyasuist and political activist with an axe to grind, you want it to sound as if Haile Selassie discriminated against certain ethnic groups at the very beginning of the article. The "illegal coup" you're referring to was organized by "high-ranking soldiers, nobles and officials and led by Fitawrari Habta Giyorgis and the highest Ethiopian churchman Echage Waida-Giyorgis. They were eventually joined at the last minute by some of lyyasu's closest advisors including Yeggazu Bahabte. As Thesiger had once noted, 'there is always a strong tendency among the Abyssinians to hold back from any movement until they are sure the majority is on their side'. A public proclamation secretly composed by the plotters was read out at Menilek's palace in the presence of the Egyptian head of the Ethiopian Coptic Church Abuna Mattewos, on September 26th 1916 during the national Christian holiday of Masqal. The main accusations against Iyyasu involved various acts of apostasy for which Ahuna Mattewos excommunicated him. The proclamation ended by deposing lyyasu and in his stead appointing Menilek's daughter Zawditu as Empress with Tafari as heir to the throne."[7] The book that's cited from the Harari People Regional State Culture, Heritage and Tourism Bureau on Abdullahi Sadiq's Wikipedia article that states that he "died of illness, caused by the poisoning of Haile Selassie in the mid 1920[s]" on page 125 isn't a secular source at all and it's not corroborated with any other objective references; it's pure political propaganda. It's a historical fact that Haile Selassie was the first ruler of Ethiopia to ever criminalize genocide and war crimes against civilian populations (see Arts. 281-292 Penal Code of Ethiopia 1957). Your mention of the Muslim Uyghurs in China also demonstrates your Islamic political activism and a conflict of interest per Conflict of interest. The idea that Haile Selassie was actively discriminating against non-Amharic speakers and religious groups such as the Ethiopian Jews (also known as the Falashas), and the Harari people before the war is demonstrably false as the Somali interpreter for Haile Selassie in this documentary clearly states: "This wreath is laid down in memory of our fallen hero army soldiers who died in the defense of this nation."[11] The source you cited merely says that Ethiopian Jews were discriminated against in the country, it doesn't say that Haile Selassie promulgated any policies against them on the basis of their religion; the Emperor didn't control the individual attitudes and opinions of the Ethiopian people [7]. "The effect of Christian culture and traditions in the life of the country is a well recognised fact. This, however, does not remotely mean that there are any sort of restrictions on the activities of other religious groups inhabiting the country. On the contrary, His Imperial Majesty, who is defender of the faith, himself built mosques for Moslems where there were not adequate places of worship. The Emperor's approach to religion and tribalism was amply exemplified in a speech he made to the 'Haimanot Abew', a religious association of college students, in December, 1958. The Emperor said: Ethiopia is but a general name for a vast territory or state. In it live many tribes but the important idea is not the several tribes; it is the unity within the land which they all can call their own. One of the Emperor's main concerns during the post-liberation period was to ensure freedom of religion. This he not only incorporated as a mandatory provision in the Constitution but ensures that this is scrupulously observed. He makes it a point to address Moslem elders on their most important religious occasions. That there are today large numbers of people of Mohammedan faith, occupying various important government offices and freely engaging in commercial and business activities is a testimony to true religious liberty in Ethiopia, under the guidance of His Imperial Majesty. What is more, there are several members of the two Houses of Parliament who are of Moslem persuasion."
 * I'm going to ignore the false accusations and stick to the topic on hand. I know emotions can be high when there's possible beliefs that the subject is divine and you've actively enhanced those statements in the article. Not sure who has a conflict of interest here, someone who actively calls Selassie "his majesty" on the talk page or me. You're free to believe he is divine but we need to be neutral and provide the dark side of his rule, this is to be fair and balanced. The amount of medals he has received in his life which you have also improved are important as well. Haile Selassie bears responsibility for the human rights violations during his rule, attempting to absolve him of this, is not appropriate. Reading more about Selassie may help instead of dismissing anything negative as propaganda against the Emperor. Start here. Magherbin (talk) 10:46, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Again the only person who has mentioned belief in the Emperor's divinity here so far is you. You can ignore the accusations of being a political activist if they don't apply (there's really a political movement in Ethiopia whose members call themselves "Iyasuists" to this day) but you can't ignore the actual substance in my responses. You throw a book over the wall as if I'm unfamiliar with the Africa Watch Report, amusing. Questions concerning human rights are written about in the opening paragraph as well as subsection 2.8 "1970s" and are cited throughout the article already. Taking sources out of context isn't a neutral standpoint at all—that's the only issue here with regards to "Harari persecution". If you want to balance out the article with facts about the alleged "dark side" of his rule you'll have to find something other than treasonous Hararis to use as your example; no emotions required.
 * I'm not a mind reader to know if you read the Africa Watch report or not but this thought process of yours seems to insinuate a conspiracy to paint the Emperor in a bad light. Haile Selassie was a brutal dictator anyone whose researched his reign can tell you this. Here you want to tell us Oromo were dishonest regarding their language being banned or that Hararis deserved to be oppressed, and Somalis were violent. This is not 1920 theres no Ethiopian empire, most of these ethnic groups have ethnic states within Ethiopia yet you're spewing venom at them like an imperial mouth piece. Ethiopia was a colonial empire that invaded independent states and refused basic rights for natives, pretending otherwise is futile. Magherbin (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The sources you cite are biased and your approach isn't neutral per WP:NPOV. In accordance with Dawit S Gondaria's recommendation this topic has been escalated to the Noticeboards and we notify you here.
 * == Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion ==


 * Information icon4.svg There is currently a discussion at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Motion to Add Context to the Persecution of Harari People.The discussion is about the topic Haile Selassie. Thank you. Czar Petar I (talk) 13:04, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Which sources are not neutral? The references of Michael Feener and Tim Carmichael? Your recent edit is inaccurate, the source states Harari movement began as reaction to the crackdown on Italian collaborators, it did not occur prior to this. Regarding your NPOV board post, the persecution began after the peaceful protest that arrested a few leaders who had requested more rights in their homeland. You responded that protesting is illegal, well ofcourse it is in a dictatorship, you proved my point. Mass arrests on Harari citizens for a few requesting their relatives be released has nothing to do with secessionism nor Italian/Somali collaboration. Read Tim Carmichaels reference I cited for clarification. To note that this had little to do with Italian collaboration and more to do with the resentment that Italians granted more rights to Hararis than the imperial Ethiopian government, the governor of Harar at the time of Harari persecution was himself an Italian collaborator see p.210 yet he was rewarded with governorship of Harar thus it is no surprise that being an Amhara meant superiority under Selsssie's Ethiopia. Amhara provinces were even paying little to no tax under Selassie compared to other regions, this is stated by the Africa Watch report that I cited. Magherbin (talk) 02:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The sources I was referring to that aren't neutral are the book that's cited from the "Harari People Regional State Culture, Heritage and Tourism Bureau" on Abdullahi Sadiq's Wikipedia page and the Oromo literature that's cited in the Haile Selassie article with regards to the alleged language ban. I actually accept your revision to my recent edit which is why I thanked you for it, I even used one of the sources you cited here on the talk page for that edit because it adds context. The NPOV board post doesn't specify which occurred first it merely suggests that context be added in the spirit of neutrality. However you're not sufficiently versed in the knowledge of Imperial Ethiopian law as peaceful public protests were never illegal during the Haile Selassie era (see Penal Code of Ethiopia 1930, Penal Code of Ethiopia 1957 and Peaceful Public Demonstrations Proclamation 1967). Article three of the 1967 Proclamation for instance specifically states that a lawful permit is required for holding peaceful public protests; seditious demonstrations without permits were always illegal. Just because you feel as though Haile Selassie was a dictator and that his cousin Iyasu was better for making Afaan Oromo Ethiopia's national language doesn't mean that Haile Selassie was illegitimate. Church and state were inseparable throughout Ethiopia's ancient history and Iyasu fell out of favor with the church causing them to excommunicate him thus he lost the throne. Haile Selassie was part Oromo himself so how did he consider Amharas to be superior? It's a historical fact that every ethnicity was represented in His Majesty's government, your narrative is just typical lopsided political activist rhetoric and ethnic jargon aimed at slandering the Emperor—which is why I'll continue to emphasize that context is key especially for neutrality. Czar Petar I (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Even the biased book from the Harari People Regional State Culture, Heritage and Tourism Bureau that wrongfully accused Haile Selassie of poisoning Abdullahi Sadiq shows that eighty-one Hararis that were pardoned by the Emperor and twelve of their Harari elders admitted themselves that their acts were criminal, serious and didn't deserve pardon/mercy (translation): "We, the individuals who are pardoned by the merciful Emperor, understand that we are offenders and the offence which we have committed is not subjected to mercy and pardoned. [...] With the help of his majesty Emperor Haile Selassie mitigates the capital punishment which we would have been serving to prison. After we serve the prison for few days, the merciful emperor has pardoned us and we are let free. YourMajesty, We never forget all time your merciful pardoned you have given to us and it will be sealed in our heart forever. You will receive two wise blessing from the creator for your merciful deed. We are committed that we will serve our country Ethiopia loyally and diligently. We will never be engaged in similar offensive acts. We hereby extend our heart full gratitude to your majesty for your merciful pardoned you has given to us."


 * The elders' statement (translation): "Your Majesty, While we are ashamed and annoyed with the criminals act few members of our community, his Majesty who is merciful by nature has pardoned the individuals. Accordingly, we hereby extend our heart full gratitude to His Majesty for his merciful deed kneeling before the Emperor. Your Majesty, We cannot see His Majesty in our full eyes due to destructive act of our fellow brothers. We hereby sincerely stated that, the pardoned not only concerns the offenders but also it concerns to all Muslims who resides in Harrar. Your Majesty, It is normal for a child who commits a fault to ask his father for pardon. Therefore, we sincerely request your majesty who is the father of your people to give us absolute pardon even though the offense is serious." 20 (pages 410-416). The idea that Haile Selassie targeted, discriminated against and persecuted the Harari people because of their ethnicity is demonstrably false. Czar Petar I (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Skipping over the points i'm making doesnt assist in resolving this issue, and also discussions on Iyasu which is irrelevant to this discussion. I just brought up the point to enlighten you that persecution of Hararis existed prior to the Italian invasion, and Selassie was a usurper there's no sugarcoating this, he wasnt even chosen by Menelik to succeed him. Selassie may have been part Oromo but there's a portion of the Oromo population that were forcefully assimilated into the Amhara culture, these were the Shewans which Selassie belongs to. The elder statement you quoted above proves that under an authoritarian regime you need to state you're wrong or risk jail and even death by execution. Since you continue to cherry pick content in references which you dont believe are reliable, here is text from that very source you quoted which explicitly proves from government archives that Hararis were targeted for their ethnicity; "His advice to the government was to take immediate action to pre-empt another insurrection. He finally suggested uprooting as many Hararis as possible from their land and settling them into other “Amhara country” in order to quell their movements (Archive source). And accordingly, these transfers began to be implemented adroitly" p.144 . I have a suggestion to change the statement to ethnic cleansing instead of "persecution". Magherbin (talk) 22:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Which points have I skipped over exactly? Not only is the dubious book from the Harari People Regional State Culture, Heritage and Tourism Bureau biased propaganda but anyone that takes five seconds to read the passage you're referring to will see that you've taken it completely out of context as the previous page states that the Hararis refused to accept Haile Selassie's government for years and were allied with Somalis whose seditious political movements were illegal. "The elder statement you quoted above proves that under an authoritarian regime you need to state you're wrong or risk jail and even death by execution." Is that what the source stated or is that your interpretation and application of WP:SYNTH? The section about Harari persecution at the beginning article needs to be removed entirely as it's completely misleading, I won't even entertain rewording it at this point. Czar Petar I (talk) 01:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking through the reference you quoted, here is another passage; "it was during the reign of Blatta Ayyele Gebre that a large number of Hararis were imprisoned, flogged, their properties confiscated, their family lives shattered, up rooted and impoverished andabout 10,000 left their home into forced exile in far-away lands. However, though these atrocities were committed by Blatta Ayyele Gebre, it is obvious that the rule and policy, and order originated from the Imperial government, i.e., the emperor himself." p.141  hence the attempt to state they were not ethnically singled out by the Selassie regime doesnt make sense, they were obviously ethnically targeted. Magherbin (talk) 05:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ridiculous, you still think that source is valid? It's not, it's very flawed. Flogging wasn't a specific punishment inflicted exclusively on Hararis; the practice has a long history in Ethiopia: "Although the earlier emphasis on retribution is beginning to change today, certain strongly retributive institutions remain, the most obvious of which is flogging. Mutilation had been discontinued a number of years ago; flogging has, however, been retained in the Penal Code of 1957 (Flogging was also an enumerated punishment in the Penal Code of 1930, but with the provision in Art. 2(pt 1): 'The sentence of flogging is still in use with a few other governments. Though it is certainly our purpose that the sentence of flogging shall in the future be abolished in our country, for the present we have strictly reserved the sentence of flogging, as it has hitherto been administered, for the punishment of those who have committed some great crime which yet does not deserve sentence of death.') The drafter had excluded flogging from his original Avant-projet, but the Codification Commission and Parliament reintroduced the penalty. The strongest arguments given in its behalf were that it is in harmony with traditions of punishment, that its use is restricted to very repugnant crimes and that it has a strong deterrent effect (Procès-verbal of the Codification Commission, April 9, 1954 G.C. p. 3; Proceedings of the Senate, Hamle 1, 1949 E.C. (July 8 1957 G.C.), final resolution, Hamle 8, 1949 E.C. (July 15, 1957 G.C.). After much debate in Parliament it was finally included within the Code as Art. 120A (It is the only article with 'A' indicating Parliamentary inclusion) and applied only in instance of Aggravated Theft (Art. 635(3)) and Aggravated Robbery (Art. 637(1)). The infliction of flogging is limited to male offenders between the ages of eighteen and fifty and may not exceed forty lashes to be carried out under medical supervision; the flogging may be stopped at any time that the doctor considers health to be in jeopardy. A decree was issued in 1961 extending the punishment of flogging to seven other offences which the Decree categorizes as 'offenses which relate to the disturbance of public opinion' (Decree No. 45 of 1961 G.C.). The Decree states that the High Court may substitute flogging for the penalty provided and that it is to be inflicted in accordance with Article 120A, but not to exceed thirty lashes. 'Corporal punishment (flogging), whose abolition was already envisaged by the Code of 1930, is another example of the conflict between tradition and ideas concerning punishments. It can be regarded as a 'barbarous' institution, contrary to presently accepted ideas about legal progress and respect for human dignity whose demoralizing nature must make us react from it; but it is no less possible to regard it as a useful institution among a proud and courageous people who are afraid not of suffering but of loss of respect, and who would approve of it, precisely because of its ethical implications in cases involving villainy, baseness or cynical brutality by the offender' (The Rationale for Corporal Punishment, Jean Graven, Intro, Le Code Pénal de l'Empire d'Ethiopie; english translation, 1 J. Eth. L. 289 (1964). 'No one shall be subjected to cruel and inhuman punishment' (Art. 57. Revised Constitution of Ethiopia). 'Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted' (Amend. 8. The Constitution of the United States). '[In holding denaturalization a cruel and unusual punishment within the meaning of Amendment 8 of the Constitution of the United States the Supreme Court stated]: The exact scope of the constitutional phrase 'cruel and unusual' has not been detailed by this Court. But the basic policy reflected in those words is firmly established in the Anglo-American tradition of criminal justice. The phrase in our Constitution was taken directly from the English Declaration of Rights of 1688, and the principle it represents can be traced back to the Magna Carta. The basic concept underlying the Eighth Amendment is nothing less than the dignity of man. While the State has the power to punish, the Amendment stands to assure that this power be exercised within the limits of civilized standards. Fines, imprisonment and even execution may be imposed depending upon the enormity of the crime, but any technique outside the bounds of these traditional penalties is constitutionally suspect. This Court has had little occasion to give precise content to the Eighth Amendment, and, in an enlightened democracy such as ours, this is not surprising. But when the Court was confronted with a punishment of 12 years in irons at hard and painful labor imposed for the crime of falsifying public records, it did not hesitate to declare that the penalty was cruel in its excessiveness and unusual in its character. Weems v. United States, 217 U.S. 349, 54 L. ed. 793, 30 S. Ct. 544, 19 Ann. Cas. 705. The Court recognized in that case that the words of the Amendment are not precise, and that their scope is not static. The amendment must draw its meaning from the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society' (Trop v. Dulles, Supreme Court, 256 U.S. 86 (1957) United States)."
 * "I saw the Chief Justice flogged three times, and after that, two days later, return to his office, because they do not think it a dishonour; rather they say the King is fond of him, because he remembers him, and a short time after does him favours and gives lordships. And when they now thus flogged the Chief Justice, there were there sixty monks, all clothed in new yellow robes according to their usage. When they had done flogging the Chief Justice, they took an old monk, who was very venerable and the head of the others, and they flogged him in the above mentioned way, and they did not once touch this monk. When they had done with him they brought another monk who might be a little more than forty years old, and he looked respectable, and they flogged him like the others, and this one was touched twice. When it was over I asked the cause of it, and what sin the monks had committed. Then they related to me that the monk who had been last flogged had been married to a daughter of the Prester, (one of Eskender's daughters married Fequra Iyasus, who may be the monk to whom Alvares refers) that is of Alexander, uncle of this David, and he had separated from her, and he had married a sister of this Prester, who [behaved scandalously and] did what she pleased, and the husband did not dare to meddle with this from fear of the Prester, and also because in this country the faults of women are not looked at with much surprise; he left this second wife and returned to the first. And the Prester John ordered that he should return to his sister. When he saw this order he would not do it, and went and became a monk: and on this account the Prester ordered these monks to come before the Chief Justice for him to see whether this man was lawfully a monk. He judged that he had lawfully taken the habit, and because he had judged thus the Prester had ordered him to be flogged. And the Father or Guardian had been flogged because he had given the habit to the other. And the third man was flogged because he had received the habit; and they commanded him at once to leave the habit and to return to the Prester's sister. With this we stayed unheard this time, and for fifteen days later, because of things which happened in the monastery, which I will relate."
 * You also said, "To note that this had little to do with Italian collaboration and more to do with the resentment that Italians granted more rights to Hararis than the imperial Ethiopian government, the governor of Harar at the time of Harari persecution was himself an Italian collaborator see p.210 yet he was rewarded with governorship of Harar thus it is no surprise that being an Amhara meant superiority under Selsssie's Ethiopia." Allow me to demonstrate to you why you must verify what you're reading and why that particular source is overt ethno-political propaganda: "When the Italians occupied Addis Ababa in 1936, he was induced by the Italian officials to cooperate with them as an advisor. Later on, when they realized that he was discreetly supporting the patriots, they detained him and sent him to Azinarra for imprisonment." The book from the Harari Tourism Bureau conveniently omits crucial context and we're gonna continue having these problems if you only read materials that support your confirmation bias. I should move for sanctions because you're clearly trolling. Czar Petar I (talk) 06:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Again quit using wp:synth to refute flogging this time which isnt even the center of this discussion you've spammed the talk page with a whole chapter on law during the imperial era. Dont quote texts and then have issues with it when I do the same by quoting from the same reference. The persecution is corroborated by several sources, you've attempted to dismiss the persecution or outright justify it. Tim Carmichael was a historian and the text was released from Boston university hence not "ethno-political propaganda". Magherbin (talk) 06:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * If Carmichael's study is inaccurate too then so be it but I was actually referring to the Harari Tourism Bureau page 141: "Be that as it may, it was the inhuman activity by people such as Blatta Ayyele who had assisted fascist Italy (Graziani) in 1937 in executing and murdering the Ethiopian patriots. It is a dreadful paradox on Haile Sillasie’s part that he could assign a person, who betrayed his country, to a vital post as governorship of this noble province and its people." Carmichael's sideways paper isn't legible on my current device, I'll have to figure out another way to read it sit tight. Czar Petar I (talk) 06:55, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Consider WP:DR
Maintain WP:CIVIL, refrain from making accusations or name calling, and stick to the topic. One say source is pulled out of context, another one claims WP:SYNTH, consider one of the WP:DR mechanism. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:52, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Banned language
User:Czar Petar I, Oromo language was indeed banned hence this line ("there was never an official law or government policy that criminalized any language.") you've added needs to be removed. It attempts to contradict the statement following it. See the following references for clarity. Magherbin (talk) 03:58, 11 March 2022 (UTC)


 * That narrative is unverifiable as there were no Imperial Ethioipan laws during Haile Selassie's regime that legally criminalized any language. The page is to remain neutral and encyclopedic per WP:V, "In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of editors. Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight." Czar Petar I (talk) 11:05, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * You have provided no references that disagree, only WP:SYNTH to imply no languages were banned by quoting the Ethiopian Imperial constitution. A nation can claim to be a democracy and not practice it on the ground, this is why we have academics. Magherbin (talk) 21:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't implied anything, I've proven that no languages were ever banned by Haile Selassie's government and I have provided sources numerous times already on the talk page and in the article itself. Bender et al.'s, "Language in Ethiopia" textbook from 1976 explains why many people incorrectly believe that certain languages were banned during the Haile Selassie era even though they never were. Not only have I cited Imperial Ethiopian constitutions but I've also cited laws, decrees and proclamations that demonstrate the government's tolerance with regards to different languages. Did you take the time to research and read Bender's 1976 textbook that I provided? Of course not, which is why you cited WP:SYNTH incorrectly. If you want to say that a particular language was criminalized and legally banned or that there was a specific government policy that prohibited a language from being used and then you cannot provide any law or policy that instituted the ban or prohibition because it doesn't exist then that's a verifiability issue per WP:V as I've already stated. Amharic was the official language of the empire; that doesn't mean that Oromo or any other local language was banned or illegal no matter how many people think that it actually was (see Bender et al.'s, "Language in Ethiopia" 1976). Czar Petar I (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2022 (UTC) Czar Petar I (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * One of the links I posted is from the National African Language Resource Center at Indiana University, the only language accepted was Amharic and the emperor Selassie led an Amharization campaign. For example; "Catholic and Protestant churches that tried to use the local languages in their prayer books were forced to comply with the Amharization policy, Even though English was tolerated, local languages were not" It further states on the same page "The matter became politically explosive when Haile Selassie's Amharization policy went to the extent of ordering the confiscation and destruction of all materials written in languages other than Amharic". It even led to liberation fronts forming as a result of the ban on local languages . Magherbin (talk) 23:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This is why I've repeatedly cited the 1944 Regulations for the Establishment of Missions as the Amharic language was only required for foreign missionaries in Ethiopia to learn in order for them to be able to continue to operate in the country teaching their religions to the locals as the Ethiopians were still skeptical of foreigners' motives after the war, particularly missionaries. "One of my first tasks upon returning to Ethiopia in 1943 had been to draft legislation controlling missionary activities. The experience of the 1920s and 1930s, when Italian missionaries served as advance agents for the Fascists, had convinced all Ethiopians that most missionaries were up to no good." Political activists from the region are known for trying to twist these regulations, particularly Articles 13 and 14, to mean that the Emperor specifically targeted Oromo literature and culture because he was a brutal racist etc. "There is an important law with respect to language among the regulations concerning missionary activity in Ethiopia. These regulations require missionaries to learn Amharic and teach via Amharic, which is to be 'the general language of instruction'. Missionaries are allowed to teach via local languages only 'in the early stage of missionary work, until such time as pupils and missionaries . . . shall have a working knowledge of the Amharic language'. However, Amharic appears to be required for classroom use only, inasmuch as 'the local languages may be used in the course of ordinary contact with the population'. The statutory requirement that missionaries teach via Amharic is particularly important because missionaries are customarily permitted to work only in those areas in which the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is not well established. Since such areas are largely inhabited by people whose first language is not Amharic, the missionaries bring Amharic to people who might otherwise not have an opportunity to learn it." The source you cited, although uncorroborated, mentions books that were confiscated and destroyed written by Aba Gamachis the Oromo Protestant who translated religious materials.14 Also this thread should've been filed under the "Suppression of Languages?" heading and there's a slight discrepancy with the source you cited as almost immediately after the war in 1941 local radio broadcasts in Ethiopia had regular scheduled programming in Somali, English, Arabic and French. "With additional facilities, broadcasts were extended beyond Ethiopia in the early sixties, with programmes in English and French to West and North Africa and Western Europe, in Arabic to the Middle East, and in Swahili to Central and East Africa." The language and "Amharization" policies that you refer to aren't straight black and white issues as you portray them to be; these unique circumstances deserve context which would support neutrality. Czar Petar I (talk) 23:52, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Who are "all Ethiopians" here? Haile Selassie and his cronies? Thread title is fine, its the most accurate. Its already common knowledge Haile Selassie regime viewed with suspicion all those who were not solely Amharic speakers and didnt follow the Orthodox Christian faith, i'm well aware of this and referencing that is not necessary. This is another reference which acknowledges the language ban, its straightforward; "To that end Amharic was declared the official national language of Ethiopia and the medium of instruction in all elementary schools throughout the empire in 1943; all other indigenous languages were proscribed and the use of Oromo literature for educational or religious purposes was banned." p.335 . Find me a reference from an academic that states Oromo language was banned BUT there was no official law banning it, if you want context to be added next to it otherwise going around attempting to refute references are not helpful, we are editors not analysts. If you provide those references I may entertain but no guarantees. The statement as it is now will only arouse more users commenting on the talk page about how its contradicting (see Jed's post under supression of languages). This is why I brought up WP:Synth. Magherbin (talk) 05:11, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

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 * Haile Selassie in suit and cloak in 1960s.jpg

Haile Selassie ethnicity
Haile Selassie father ethnic is not “disputed” his grandfather was from Doba in shewa, in the Amhara Region. The problem was that there are 2 places in Ethiopia by the name of “Doba” one in Tigray and the other one is in shewa. Few decades ago there was a writer that got confused and wrote that Haile Selassie grandfather came from Doba in Tigray which in fact He came from Doba in shewa. And after that it became popular among extremes including the former government of Ethiopia to repeat that lie. You need to change it. Kobo3737 (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

There 2 places in Ethiopia by the name of Doba. The Doba in Tigray is more popular and known than the Doba in shewa.

And unfortunately One ignorant writer a few decades ago got confused and wrote that Haile Selassie grandfather came from Doba in Tigray and after that it became a popular myth. Kobo3737 (talk) 00:36, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your contribution but do you have a source for that information? In order to make changes to the article we would need a source such as a book or newspaper etc. Please review the discussion about Haile Selassie's ethnicity here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Haile_Selassie/Archive_3 Czar Petar I (talk) 00:41, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

yes. if you read this French source it mentions that Haile Selassie grandfather was the Governor of the provinces menz and Doba (which are in shewa)

S. Pierre Pétridès, Le Héros d'Adoua. Ras Makonnen, Prince d'Éthiopie, p. 28

Besides that there is not many other information about Haile Selassie grandfather, but He was indeed native to shewa. Kobo3737 (talk) 01:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The problem was that there was one writer years ago that got confused and wrote that Haile Selassie grandfather was from Doba in Tigray, which in fact He was from Doba in shewa and the Governor of that place. But unfortunately lies spread faster then the truth and here we are today. Kobo3737 (talk) 01:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * S. Pierre Pétridès, Le Héros d'Adoua. Ras Makonnen, Prince d'Éthiopie, p. 28 reads: "These two boys, Menelik and Makonnen, cousins, grandsons of kings, separated by an age difference of barely eight years, were to have a strange and beautiful destiny: they were to become the builders of Ethiopia in the 20th century. We have little information about Princess Tanagné-Worq; all that oral tradition has saved from oblivion is that she was beautiful, gentle, dignified and self-effacing, as are all the ladies of the high Ethiopian aristocracy we also know that she died on 22 Nahassé 1879, that is to say on August 28, 1887. As for the dedjaz Ouoldé-Mikael 1, he belonged to one of the noblest families of Choa. He governed the districts of Menz and Doba and the French traveler Arnoux, who knew him, said that he was one of the bravest generals of the time of his first cousin Méchacha-Séifou 3. The following year, he was seen taking part in the famous theological discussions of Boromieda on the three births of Christ, which proves that he was as fine a scholar as he was a valiant warrior. Makonnen, his son, was born on May 9, 1852 4, at Darafa-Maryam, in the district of Gola. The child Makonnen was therefore barely four years old when misfortune befell Shoa in the person of Theodoros, who plundered the country and carried off the crown prince Sahlé-Maryam, aged twelve, into captivity. But the latter, after having spent nine years at the Court of Theodoros, succeeded in escaping from it 5 and in returning to Choa where he was triumphantly received and proclaimed king. Now, among the first to rush to acclaim the new and legitimate - king, was the faithful dejazmatch high Ethiopia, p. 357), compare to the "knights of banner,, French. LEJEAN (Theorkre I, p. 28), translated as "gentleman". COPPET (Chronique du ~ègne de Ménélik l,. p. 4, note 8), translated as "chief", The meaning is clear in the smvant phrase: "Solomon invited his Oueizazer (male relatives). his Makouanent (his nobles), his Guerazmatch and his Kagnazmatch (generals, commanding the wings), his Seife-Djagrié (his guards)...".
 * 1-"Son of Michael. »
 * 2-L. L. LANDE, A French traveler in southern Ethiopia p. 57. RePue des Deux Mondes, Paris,15-12 1878.
 * 3- "Refuge of his sword." »
 * 4-1 Guenbot 1844 according to the Ethiopian calendar.
 * 5- June 30, 1865 or 24 Senié 1857."
 * Do you have a source that states that there was one writer years ago that got confused and wrote that Haile Selassie's grandfather was from Doba in Tigray, when he was actually from Doba in Shewa? Czar Petar I (talk) 02:17, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source that states that there was one writer years ago that got confused and wrote that Haile Selassie's grandfather was from Doba in Tigray, when he was actually from Doba in Shewa? Czar Petar I (talk) 02:17, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

It’s from a book in Amharic that was writing in 70s. The one who got i”inspired” by that book is a write (former CIA worker by the way) by the name of Paul B. Hence, that took this book and wrote that Haile Selassie grandfather came from Tigray and after that it become a popular myth.

There even some Oromo that claiming that Haile Selassie father (Ras Mäkonnen) was Oromo and his Last name was Gudsea and not Melekot. There are many lies and misinformations out there. Kobo3737 (talk) 12:21, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

If you read the source below from the university of Oxford it mentions that every Ethiopian Emperor (Besides one - yohannes IV) were Amhara 👇🏾

Appiah, Anthony; Gates (Jr.), Henry Louis (2010). Encyclopedia of Africa. Oxford University Press. p. 96

Haile Selassie ethnic is not “disputed” this is just another cheep propaganda. Kobo3737 (talk) 14:39, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * If you have an Amharic keyboard please type the name of the Amharic book and the author's name for me here. Also, if you know the publication date and which page number states the information regarding Doba and Ras Makonnen, please include it here as well thanks. Czar Petar I (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The name of the book is የአፄ ኃይለ ሥላሴ ታሪክ but I don’t remember the exact page. The writer of that book wrote that Haile Selassie grandfather was from Doba in Tigray. He confused the Doba in shewa to the Doba in Tigray and here we are today 🤷🏾‍♂️ Kobo3737 (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The History of Atse HaileSelassie by Berihun Kebede? The book was published in the year 2000, I'll check to see on which page it's written. My question is: how do you know for certain that Mr. Kebede confused the two locations in his book? In other words, how did you learn about this alleged discrepancy? Czar Petar I (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I’ve deleted the last post of a sock, see Sockpuppet investigations/Gabi838r. Doug Weller  talk 17:45, 30 August 2022 (UTC)