Talk:Hakama

Plural form, grammar
John,

All CJK words can be used as both singular and plural, but so you can say "hakama is" or "hakama are". But I'm not sure which more is more appropriate in this context. --Menchi 20:44 May 9, 2003 (UTC)


 * Hmm, you've got a point. Would it be appropriate to say "a hakama is", or is it not used that way? It looks untidy to me when the plain, un-articled word is used with both "is" and "are". -- John Owens 20:51 May 9, 2003 (UTC)

Almost exclusively worn by men? I do not think so. http://www.nyu.edu/pages/greyart/exhibits/shiseido/w1910.htm Women wearing hakama is also mentioned in Yoshikawas Musashi, and I believe a friend who went to Japan witnessed a religious ritual where women wore hakama of all colours. I suppose it has varied during history.

(sorry about mixed up grammar in the first version of the article, English is not my mother tongue)Habj 05:14 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sumo Wrestlers
I beg to differ with the last deletion made. Professional Sumo wrestlers at sekitori level commonly wear the hakama, although I accept that they do not wear it in competition. In fact they must wear Japanese clothing, either Yukata, or Hakama on all occasions when out in public (except when impractical -- such as playing golf for example). The Hakama, rather than Yukata is essentially compulsory on any formal occasion. It is also the case that the Judges (shimpan) who sit around the ring to referee also wear hakama. Hence I think that it is reasonable to include hakama as a form or attire for professional sumo wrestlers, although not in a competitive context.


 * Pro sumo wrestlers sometimes wear hakama (more commonly they just wear kimono), but they don't wear them as part of their sport. Also, please sign your posts by typing four tildes, like this: ~ .  Exploding Boy 22:03, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

The second paragraph I wrote made it perfectly clear they do not wear them in a competitive context. However, possibly the most common pictures of people wearing hakama that I saw on news items etc in Japan is of leading sumo wrestlers wearing hakama at promotions, victory parades, visits to shrines, and other times. It is an essential part of their dress in any formal context, which is a key part of a sumo wrestler's duties in Japan. Given this it is in my view reasonable to include a paragraph to this effect. I would also differ with your interpretation of "part of the sport" Rikishi do not have any option on these occasions but to wear what the Japan Sumo Association say. Thus a professional sumo wrestletr therefore wears it as part of his sport, even though it is not part of his competitive attire. The paragaph deleted explained this. Nashikawa 19:13, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Sumo wrestlers wear hakama as part of formal traditional Japanese attire. This is no different from anyone else who wears formal traditional Japanese attire.  Sumo wrestlers are required to wear kimono at all times when they appear in public; hakama may or may not be an appropriate part of that, depending on the context.  What you continue to say, both here and in the article, suggests that Sumo wrestlers are required to wear hakama; this is simply not the case.  Exploding Boy 21:13, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

If a rikishi were foolish enough to refuse to wear a hakama to after receiving the championship, or at a shrine ceremony, or at any of the other formal events described before he would as a minimum be heavily sanctioned, and possibly kicked out of the sport. Is this not a "requirement" as defined by a dictionary.....? Nashikawa 22:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The point is that they're required to wear traditional Japanese attire. Appropriate traditional Japanese attire sometimes, but not always, includes hakama.  Exploding Boy 17:29, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Waist
This whole "True Waist" thing i've seen in a few clothing-related articles makes me think there needs to be a real waist article, not just abdomen. This whole thing has me confused, as my somewhat Hank Hill-esque body has no logical waist above the hipbones, and even then it's indistinct. :) user: 12.47.38.130

Hakama and the Martial Arts
The writer of the article mentions that it may be that the flowing motion of the hakama in combat gives the practitioner an advantage (presumeably by distraction), however, one might consider a secondary explanation. I was told that the hakama's function was to disguise the wearer's footwork so that his opponent couldn't "read" the most likely direction he would step on the basis of which direction his feet were pointing. Thus, as a prelude to attack, a warrior might lower his stance, bringing the hakama over his feet.

This explanation makes sense for the samurai who practiced traditional bugei where Hakama are almost universal and the arts that derive from them. The samurai were looking for even the smallest advantage and had to be ready to fight at all times so you see the hakama everywhere in martial arts, developed on the Japanese mainland--in Kendo, Jiu-jutsu and Aikido (which is derived from an older form of unarmed combat called aiki ju-jutsu) but not in Judo, a purely modern form, and rarely, if ever, in the practice of Japanese and Okinawan karate.

Looked at this way, the Hakama makes sense as formal dress in the martial arts as rank-insignia: in many cases, by wearing a hakama, the student is allowed to announce that his footwork is good enough to not require visibility for correction and important enough to require disguise. In other words, he or she is ready to fight.

Women's hakama
As a practitioner of kendo, I just want to add that the section saying hakama are rarely worn by women is quite misleading. There are thousands of girls wearing hakama in kendo practice every day throughout Japan and the rest of the world.

....Which still means that it's unusual for women to wear them. Exploding Boy 02:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Some kimono dressing books say the obi used under hakama is half-width (hanhaba), not men's (kaku). Can anyone confirm? 75.27.232.193 23:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hakama's original purpose
The current article states that the original purpose for the hakama was to hide foot work. I think this is folk wisdom and has no basis. I have heard this reason given in Aikido classes, but I have also read that when going into battle, the hakama was tied close to the legs to make sure that they are out of the way. I don't have a citation either way, so I have left a mark on the paragraph. Edwin Stearns | Talk 19:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Relating to the "original" purpose, I have also heard that they served much the same function as chaps. Since the Japanese didn't have leather, the thick material of the hakama protected samurai's legs while riding a horse. However, oddly enough, I can't seem to confirm this with the few sources at my desk. Anyone else heard of this, or have a citation to confirm it? LordAmeth 18:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there are several problems in this article regarding the history, purpose, and gender-specificity of hakama. Sadly, my minimal Japanese makes detailed scholarship on the topic is inaccessible to me, but I wish to point to many instances of and references to hakama in the Costume Museum in Kyoto. Here they are clearly a garment worn by both sexes, in a context which just as clearly predates their association with the Japanese martial arts. While I cannot vouchsafe this source is perfectly accurate and researched to the highest of academic standards, I believe it at worst a good-faith effort, and their collection and resources correlate with much pictorial evidence (e.g. the Tale of Genji scrolls at the Tokugawa Art Museum in Nagoya and the Goto Museum in Tokyo, among many other, if later, sources). A careful review of extant literary material may be in order, e.g. of the Tale of Genji itself, Murasaki Shikibu's fragmentary diary, Sei Shounagon's Pillow Book, etc.Chang E 22:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
We need a high quality picture of someone wearing both the male and female version of this article of clothing. See the picture in Furisode for an example.--Acewolf359 15:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Fabric
To make this article more informative, shouldn't something be put in regarding what kind of fabric was traditionally used, with a comparison to what is used now? While I don't know for sure, I would think that hakama were first developed before cotton was available in Japan. If this is the case, what were they made of before then? For that matter, when does the first evidence of hakama use appear? Zarakinthish 01:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Evaluation
Dropped the evaluation down to Start since there are no inline references at all. This is a major element that should be included for a B-class article.Peter Rehse 05:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thai/Lao "Pakama"
Why do people in Thailand call their variety of men's traditional wrap-around clothing pakama? Isn't this oddly similar to the ancient pronunciation of Japanese hakama (<*pakama)? Ebizur (talk) 23:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese pronunciation of undivided hakama
"行灯" of "行灯袴" (undivided hakama) is pronounced as "andon", which is a jukujikun reading. The second word "hakama" becomes "bakama" by rendaku. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.80.15.131 (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Kamishimo from Portuguese?
Does anyone know if the word Kamishimo was borrowed from Portuguese Camisa for Shirt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.8.34 (talk) 22:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleted scenes
I cleaned up the first paragraph, which, grammatically speaking, was a disgusting mess. Nice first impression, right? But one thing I couldn't even understand well enough to confidently clean up was the following: "in jin nan dynasties hakama been used Chinese common". I can guess at what this might mean, but I wasn't confident enough to make the change myself. Perhaps it refers to the Chinese Dong Jin and Nan Bei dynasties which preceded the Sui and Tang ones, and common use of hakama in China in that period. Although, I had thought that hakama were a specifically Japanese garment?

I also deleted two nonsense comments on this page. 2601:441:8301:E676:A969:E309:1A49:F559 (talk) 15:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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Sorry but this is all nonsense
The association of hakama with martial arts is a purely Western thing.

During the 'classic' period kimono/obi/hakama were normal everyday clothes. So this is how people in martial arts of these period dressed. Clothes just for use in martial arts did not exist until the 20C.

In Japan today, this outfit is formal attire. In is very common for formal outfits to be survivals of older types. But powdered wigs were not designed for judges, morning suits were not designed for weddings. And hakama were not made for martial arts. There is no basis for ideas about hiding footwork or the seven ideas of budo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 (talk) 08:56, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Except for all the types of martial arts which include hakama as part of their formal costume, e.g. kendo, naginata, kyudo, aikido, etc. Jrhoadley (talk) 20:28, 4 February 2022 (UTC)


 * This article doesn't mention "hiding footwork" or the seven ideas of budo. And they worn as part of uniform. Just because they didn't originate specifically as part of it, doesn't mean it's wrong to make that connection.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) (&#123;&#123;ping&#125;&#125; me!) 11:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)