Talk:Half-pass

photo odette half-pass
I wonder if this picture is a good choice to demonstrate the movement because of the lacking bend. However the crossing of the outer hind-leg is convincing, and so is another detail which my riding teacher, nabil, always lays emphasis on (and which I cannot finde in the German Federation's rules): the rider's leg is pointing into the direction of travelling, i.e. to the marker. --Auguste Bolte (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's adequate. When you read different texts, there seems to be room for both straightness and a slight bend in the direction of travel.  I'd say that due to the presence of some differences of opinion, it's within the range of acceptable form.  Absent a shot from the Olympics or something, I'm content with it, anyway.   Montanabw (talk) 02:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Could you give me a quotation from one of these different sources, please?. I'd relly like to know. As I understood, for all true lateral movements the bend is essential, isn't it? --Auguste Bolte (talk) 10:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not straight, precisely, but with only a slight bend. I'm thinking my source may have been Wynmalen or else Podhajsky, but I'd have to dig for the books.  Where I am from, there's a huge problem with people overbending the neck and thinking it's correct.   Montanabw (talk) 02:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Montanabw. However, if the article speeks about a bend which the photo doesn't show it seems to be contradictory. So, shouldn't the wording slightly be changed? - In fact, in my few English and in my German sources they always want the bend and the look into the direction of travel.

Something else: you corrected "zig-zag" into "serpenting". In the German Federation's rules they mention the "Zick-Zack-Traversale im Galopp", i.e. the zig-zagging canter half-pass. Why do you say "serpentines" instead? In my eyes this is a different movement. --Auguste Bolte (talk) 13:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * "Serpentine" (note spelling) is a more appropriate term than "zig-zag" when it comes to describing a sophisticated pattern of movement with change of direction. It's the way it's usually phrased in the rules, at least in American English.  "Zig-Zag" more commonly refers to a design on paper, or suggests movement with sharp, abrupt turns rather than smooth, controlled changes of direction.  It's a matter of linguistic nuance, but "serpentine" Is the proper term for the pattern we are discussing here. ;-)    Montanabw (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

At least in German terminology this would be a mixing up of these two patterns of movement: Serpentines consist of loops, in zig-zag movements, however, there are none, you have a series of diagonals, forming angles. The difference in my eyes is not in the performance (whether smoothly or abruptly done), but in the kind of track in the arena (in German it's called "Bahnfigur", I don't know what's it called in English). Serpentines are performed along the long side or through the arena from one side to another. The zig-zag half-pass, however, is performed down the centre line. Do you agree? --Auguste Bolte (talk) 16:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That is a point. But either way, the pattern you refer to is called a "counter change of hand" in the USEF rule book. ("Bahnfigur" probably is most close to "school figures" in English -- at least that's what they call a precise pattern in figure skating)  "At the counter-change of hand the rider should make his horse straight an instant before changing direction. When for instance at counter-change of hand at half-pass to either side of the center line the number of meters or strides to either side is prescribed in the test, it must be strictly observed and the movement be executed symmetrically."  (Neither the word "serpentine" nor the word "zigzag" (pr zig-zag) is used to describe the pattern.)  USEF dressage rules mention serpentines to describe half-voltes, so your comment on loops fits that movement, but they don't use the word "zigzag" ANYWHERE.   I'm out in a rural area on a slow dialup connection at the moment, and so the FEI rules are not coming up for me tonight... but my thinking is to explain the pattern the way the English versions of national or international rules describe it, rather than trying to translate from German.   Montanabw (talk) 06:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

not for insisting but for let me say finding a common language: in the fei rules (2011), article 409, they mention "counter-changes of hand (in zig-zag)", adding a definition of "zig-zag" in the footnote: ""A movement containing more than two (2) half-passes with changes of direction." --Auguste Bolte (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It helps to provide a live link, I got a 404 error. But you did correctly cite the rule here, it needs refinement in the text, which I tweaked.   Montanabw (talk) 17:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)