Talk:Halifax, Nova Scotia/Archive 1

One great big mess
We now have a incoherent collection of Halifax/HRM-related articles. The History of Halifax page is very well-written (though lacking a reference to its role in the Titanic disaster), but the page Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) is a mess. I can repair the grammar and typos but I’ve neither the time nor energy to re-structure it. The page appears to have been badly mauled by the frequently-blocked contributor Matthvm/Patycat.

I thought that we (the local Wikipedians) had a reasonable solution to the “name that city” problem — the HRM page would deal with the greater metropolitan area and link to various sub-articles (Halifax Harbour and so on.) Pages for Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city), Dartmouth, Bedford and the rest should be small and strictly focused on local information. Contributors should ask themselves, “Is this item of significance to the metropolitan area? (e.g., The Halifax explosion) Or is this item only important within a local context? (e.g., Peter Kelly was the last mayor of Bedford)

If in doubt, bring the matter up on the Talk Page before taking a chainsaw to an already reasonably well-written page.--OldCommentator 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's also high time that someone archived the older material on this page. I'd do it myself if I knew how.--OldCommentator 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?
Beer paragraph -- NPOV? 18.24.0.120 16:36, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Article Name
Do you think it appropriate to have this page at Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia? This strikes me as a bit much. After all, we don't have Montreal, Quebec at Ville de Montréal, Quebec. Furthermore, nearly all the links pointing to this page go through the redirect to Halifax, Nova Scotia. I think this article would be better served by being at Halifax, Nova Scotia. - Montr&eacute;alais 05:37, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree. The HRM, NS addition just makes the article cumbersome. We should stick with the names of the cities, Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, for the bulk of the articles. HRM is fine for a small explanatory article mentioning the merger. Peregrine981 17:13, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * The Halifax, Nova Scotia article has HRM flag, HRM crest, HRM image. It has slowly been re-writen to include an overview of Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, County.  I think this article is redundent.  We should fold the minimal information on this page into the Halifax page and then create a redirect.  If anything, there needs to be a 'City of Halifax (former)' page or something to put Halifax specific history on, and links to it, like there are links to Bedford and dartmouth.WayeMason 13:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I find it living here to be very inappropriate--Vic 18:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC) I find it living here to be very inappropriate too--JO 01:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Halifax Explosion
I could not find any reference to the explosion of 1917 besides a passing comment about recontsruction. This seemed odd seing as how more recent, much less dramatic hurricanes were mentioned. If I knew the facts I would write it myself, but alas, I am just a curious American.


 * About the Halifax Explosion: It seems to be incorrect that the day was particulary foggy. According to www.halifaxexplosion.org it was a bright day. Maybe someone can clarify this point.
 * --Martin

The Great Merger
Hello there, I hope the more people are pleased than disappointed with the work so far. A solid foundation for a Halifax, Nova Scotia page is now in that article, it includes most if not everything from the history section of this article. This article now contains the content of the HRM page merged with the HRM/Halifax content from the 'old' halifax page. Issues that remain: Final note, it happened that while I was putting the merged files up on line, a user from Halifax, West Yorkshire moved that page to the Halifax page. In the end we went back and forth and ended up with the disambugation page there. I think thats wrong but I do not know what to do about it. WayeMason 23:03, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * removing the history. Painful as this may be for some, Dartmouth, Bedford, county and Halifax pages have history and community on them.  I would propose that HRM page should have history from amalgamation onward.  So right now that is debate that lead to, and then amalgamation, and Juan, I guess.
 * I think that the remaining sections, education, culture, etc should stay on HRM page. There is no Dartmouth media.  There is one Halifax Regional school board.  We are a community of communities, but most of the major institutions serve most of the population.
 * On the other hand, most of what makes Greater Halifax great means absolutely nothing to someone from Ship Harbour. So the isolation from core services of the eastern edge of the region should be noted.  It takes, for example, 3 hours to drive from Dalhousie University to Moser river.  Nobody out there enjoys access to most HRM services.


 * Most people looking for information on Halifax would just look up "Halifax". So I would have to agree with WayeMason in that all information regarding the metro area as a whole should be in the Halifax article; with the HRM article being about the municipal government. Kirjtc2 22:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I took the liberty of moving Kirjtc2's post down under this header as we were posting tonight at the same time... I have changed my stance somewhat from earlier feelings about the issue...  I think HRM is the focus now, for things since 1996.   WayeMason 23:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I like it Waye - long overdue IMHO. Totally hear you on the Eastern Shore business - one Saturday I decided to drive from Hubbards to Ecum Secum and then to Trafalgar and then Mount Uniacke - took 9 hours!!!  I had considered making changes along these lines to how Halifax/HRM were being referenced last year but go stung when adding information about Halifax vs. HRM on the "Halifax" entry.  Ironically to most of the "old Halifax" crowd (who don't like to admit it), the population growth in the areas of the former Municipality of the County of Halifax has been greater since the formation of HRM than in the former city, although some vertical residential development is changing things.  The HRM article as it stands (edits aside), and the suggestions about community histories, are appropriate.  Cheers,Plasma east 00:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Trouble Neighbourhoods
''However, some areas of the city are seen as problem neighbourhoods, notably Spryfield in the city's Mainland South district, the Gottingen Street area in the North End and parts of Dartmouth. Although there is debate as to whether these perceptions are valid, these areas tend to have higher rates of drug-related and violent crime than the rest of the city.''

Is there some way of obtaining information about the actual drug-related and violent crime stats for Spryfield and the Gottingen area? This kind of statement is crying out for a source. Its exactly the kind of thing wikipedia should be most careful about. Peregrine981 12:00, August 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * As someone who has worked in the north end and lived on Gottingen, and delivered pizza while in university to all those neighbourhoods... well, there are poor neighbourhoods.  By far the worst is North Dartmouth.  But the reason there is so much drug related crime on  Gottingen is because of the needle exchange, wet methadone clinic, full lock down halfway house (almost prison) and the Salvation Army alcohol rehab centre.  Almost all these services were moved there creating IMHO a magnet affect.  Most of the users lined up in front of Mainline are white folk who moved to the neighbourhood because of mainline.  Some types of crime are higher in north end halifax, but how much is because of the neighbourhood historically, and how much because it is the dumping ground for badly crafted social policys.  How much because it is/was a black neighbourhood and historically that community was unable to stop this kind of service being dumped in their community?  This is a huge, complex and touchy issue.  I did not delete that paragraph because I know my POV is suspect on the issue, after all, we all know the real criminals live on the North West arm of the South end... ;).  Seriously, I don't know if HRM page needs to point out specifically that like all cities there are poor neighbourhoods, as there are plent of poor neighbourhoods in every city.  I also would argue that the statistics do not support violent crime being higher in most of these neighbourhoods compared on a per-capita basis than Bedford, Lower Sackville, or, for that matter, Moser River!  Someone else needs to be bold and fix or delete this...   WayeMason 13:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree with you, but these are our opinions. I think the Daily News prints crime stats on a fairly regular basis, but I don't know how detailed. So, someone in the city might want to look out for stats that are relevant. Peregrine981 14:32, August 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, my less wordy argument is "Why have it there, issues about the North End and Dartmouth are on those articles." I know the north end and down town both have comparatively high rates of violent crime based on the DN articles.  I have never seen drug crime stats by zone, or neighbourhood.WayeMason 15:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a coincidence that some of these areas (Gottingen, Highfield Park, and the Windmill area of Dartmouth north of the Macdonald Bridge) are/were close to naval and industrial facilities. Cheaper housing led to some of the social issues presently being experienced.  Spryfield used to be entirely agricultural until the amalgamation with Halifax in the 60s - then the cheap housing/apartments - some call them "projects" - went in.  Same for Churchill drive north of Prince Andrew HS.  Plasma east 16:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Alot of the middle-class suburbia in Dartmouth is worse then most of the "ghetto's". living in the Waverley/ Montebello area of dartmouth for three years in a beautiful house that we thought was in a nice neighbourhood, only to watch kids get beat up, hit with bottles, and stabbed, yes stabbed, on two differen't occasions (I never wittnessed but it was on the news, down the street), and my best friend's son who is one of the trouble makers in the area is just out of detox for cocaine use... and I know the same goes for other areas in Dartmouth, like Woodlawn, it looks nice, but it's not after dark.


 * info from: Halifax Regional Police Crime Stats Page

2005 Crime Stats in Halifax by Region: Central East West Assaults 852 752 564 Brk & Ents 1083 942 860 MVA-Prop 1275 1260 1119 MVA-Injury 244 223 273 Robberies 241 197 106 Sex Off. 101 105 92 Veh Thefts 321 565 540 Weapons 398 375 309 Stats for other HRM Regions available through source link. --TME 11:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Good stats! So that tells us that you picks your poison...  if you prefer sex offenses over assaults, live east.  If you like car thefts, live outside of downtown.  If you like fights, downtown for you.  I think its really interesting that there are as many MVAs in the burbs as there are in the core... WayeMason 12:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Haligonians
I removed The Trews from the notable persons section, they are from Antigonish, not halifax--BoyoJonesJr 16:36, 28 August 2005 (UTC) I live in Dartmouth Iam a Dartmouthian not a Haligonian--Pat 01:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Merger

 * Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia should be merged with Halifax, Nova Scotia in order reflect the 'use common names' portion of the Naming Convention. Alr 22:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * No, it should not, for the following reasons:


 * Halifax is a community INSIDE of the legal entity of HRM, which incompasses dozens of communities, some of which used to be towns or cities.  We are talking about two seperate things here.
 * by maintaining the history of the community and former city of Halifax on a seperate article, the HRM article keeps from ballooning in size. It is already larger than the size convention (32K) and it would be huge if they were merged.
 * the Naming conventions (common names) simply does not apply. 2/3s of HRM do not call HRM "halifax".   That is why the article is writen so that it references Halifax and HRM as common names.  HRM is 30 times the size of the City of Halifax, they are distinct areas and entities that share a name.
 * the Naming conventions (common names) states clearly "Don't Over Do It". It is misleading to merge the articles, as HRM is a new construction that is much larger and considerably different than the old City of Halifax.  Halifax continues to be a community inside of HRM.
 * myself and many other wikipedians just expended tremendous energy to separate the two articles because it was not good wiki to have them together as it was missleading and unclear. Please see the above arguements on this page and on the Halifax, Nova Scotia page and withdraw your call for merger.
 * WayeMason 10:24, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above statements. Until all residents and politicians of HRM stop calling this municipality by the initials (or referring to their former, pre-amalgamated municipalities), then and only then would the simplified name "Halifax" suffice.  This amalgamation was, and still is, considered a merger of equals:  Halifax (the city), Dartmouth (the city), Bedford (the town), and the Municipality of the County of Halifax (the county) were merged into a NEW entity.  This was not a case of Halifax (the city) absorbing other neighbouring municipalities.  Due to the unpopularity of the amalgamation, it was made explicitly clear by provincial and municipal officials that this was a new municipality, using the present name and initials.  HRM is comprised of numerous smaller rural and urban communities, only one of which is named "Halifax".  I'll look into creating some maps for the former municipalities prior to amalgamation, which might be able to better explain the current situation.Plasma east 14:02, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Another thing which comes to mind that might be creating confusion among those not from HRM or Nova Scotia... the province's 3 regional municipalities are unlike others in Canada, as far as I know.  They are single-tier municipalities, therefore all former municipalities within their boundaries cease to exist as legal entities.  This is unlike what occurred in Ontario, where you have a regional municipality - say Peel, which provides municipal incorporation to areas outside of the cities of Mississauga and Brampton, etc.  Nova Scotia's regional municipalities take in both urban and rural areas, therefore they cannot be classed as "cities" since there is no distinct urban/rural boundary, only the regional municipality's external boundary.Plasma east 14:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem is that I fear that people not from Nova Scotia are going to type in "Halifax, Nova Scotia" and come up with information that is not relevent to what they are looking for. They are not going to look for "Halifax Regional Municipality", because they would not know it exists. I had this exact problem. I feel that more should be done with the Halifax and HRM articles to reduce confusion, whatever solution you decide upon. Alr 19:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This sounds to me like we need a re-write of the first 2-3 paras of the Halifax, NS article... to make it clear...  WayeMason 20:24, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's a suggestion: Why not move the content of Halifax, Nova Scotia to Halifax, Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia and move the content of this page to Halifax, Nova Scotia? Alr 20:54, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I really strongly feel that given that Regional Municipalities in Nova Scotia are new and seperate entities, the only parallels out there are shire governments in the UK, that that is the wrong move. The fact that people unfamiliar with HRM do not know the actual, current state of affairs, in terms of community, governance, etc, does not move me to want to make any changes!  There were four cities, but all the media, transportation, infrastructure, waste removal were shared, (but interestingly, not water supply, police and fire) through a "Metropolitan Authority." But there is not tiered system now.  All four areas all equally participate and have ownership of all those things, and water, fire, police, AND school board.  It is completely different from the old system.  Halifax, community, still exists, but it is not HRM.  It would be factually wrong to attach that flag, those media, those services, to Halifax, Nova Scotia.  They are HRMs.


 * Halifax continues to exist as a community in HRM. HRM is not halifax. These are facts.  The confusion exists because the government chose to keep the name Halifax Regional Municipality (they debated changing the name to Chebucto, god help us).  That is not a fault of the structure on wiki, its a fault of the fact that in real life it is confusing! :)  WayeMason 21:50, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Changing the title would indicate clearly to the reader that Halifax is within the HRM and not a separate city. Halifax is, to my (British Columbian) eyes, essentially synonymous with the HRM, and the other "communities", as you put it, are areas within the city, like our Downtown Eastside. As well, I still cannot understand how HRM is unique from other megacities, perhaps you can explain this more clearly? I also think we should try and get opinions from as many Wikipedians as possible on this issue in some way. Alr 22:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Halifax is seen as quite distinct from Dartmouth, Bedford, and the rest, because they are very clearly geographically seperate. It makes sense to maintain a seperate article on each, as well as an article about the combined city (HRM), which is quite different. They are clearly and explicitely different in most usage within the city. It is true that someone talking about Halifax, Nova Scotia, but is from Australia, might well mean the overall city, but the local usage seperates them. As long as it is clearly worded on all the articles, I don't think there should be a problem.


 * Other megacities, such as Ottawa, are much more clearly amalgamated into a new large CIty of Ottawa than is Halifax. (Mostly because the main physical differences between the old communities are much less clear than in Halifax). There it makes sense to list the whole city under the simple Ottawa, Ontario label. There is no equivalent ORM. Peregrine981 04:55, August 31, 2005 (UTC)


 * The nuances of the name of HRM may appear to be just "Halifax" to those not from Nova Scotia, however these communities have existed for hundreds of years prior to the current regional government, therefore their histories were being blurred by placing everything under the "Halifax" moniker. Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, and the county with all of its smaller communities comprise the experiment known as HRM... local politicians have even made reference in media in recent years that they might even seek to de-amalgamate the municipality within several years - as is happening in Quebec.


 * The issue with the name is significant among residents of the community - particularly those outside the former city of Halifax. Mayor Kelly was formerly mayor of Bedford and he has been the point-man on this issue, seeking to have the council named "Regional Council" instead of "City Council" and there are "community councils" - comprised of members of regional council for areas of the former municipalities which meet to discuss planning/development issues, etc.  These moves to accomodate residents from the amalgamated municipalities has even gone so far as to suggest renaming Halifax City Hall to "Regional Hall" (although it was quashed for heritage reasons).


 * Alr mentions British Columbia... to use an example of what the HRM experiment would be in BC, take the entire Greater Vancouver and Fraser Valley districts and amalgamate all constituent municipalities into a single-tier entity called Vancouver Regional Municipality, or Fraser Regional Municipality - this is to differentiate from the "former city of Vancouver" or the "former city of Abottsford" etc.


 * In the Nova Scotia case, the regional municipalities that were created (Halifax, Cape Breton, and Queens) all took their names from the counties which they occupy. It is merely a coincidence that the City of Halifax, County of Halifax, and Halifax Regional Municipality all use the name Halifax, when the 3 are entirely different things, yet they all use the term "Halifax".  It would have been much less confusing for our purposes if they had simply used a completely new term for the municipality - say "Atlantic" or "Chebucto" or something.  Instead we have this confusion about how to simplify the naming of HRM which conflicts with the former city and county, etc.   You'll note that we (meaning Wikipedia) do not have the same problem with Nova Scotia's second-largest municipality (Cape Breton Regional Municipality) as this name is distinctive from Cape Breton County (which it is named after) and its former municipalities, such as the city of Sydney, town of Glace Bay, etc.  In this case it was much more politically palatable to use the "Cape Breton" name than if they were to call the new entity "Sydney Regional Municipality" (which would have resulted in a civil war, I'm sure!). Plasma east 16:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * One final note - it doesn't seem to be particularly onerous to refer to this article by its actual name "Halifax Regional Municipality" as opposed to simply "Halifax" which can mean so many things. Boston redirects to Boston, Massachusetts, so why shouldn't Halifax be a disambig page which directs to everything that mentions the word "Halifax"?Plasma east 18:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The whole HRM issue is kind of misleading. Anyone from Nova Scotia reading this article for the first time is going to think some American screwed it up. HRM was really just created for admistrative purposes. Halifax still exists as a city. If I write my parents address on an envelope with the word 'Halifax' underneath it then Canada Post will deliver it to the right spot, but if I write 'Dartmouth' they it will deliver to the wrong city because a street with the same name exists there. I can seen HRM deserving a separate article, perhaps a paragraph in length, but beyone that the focus should the individual articles.


 * I like this article the way it is, in fact, I would prefer if there wasn't a Halifax, Nova Scotia article at all. I think that should be turned into a "History of Halifax" page, and this page could be the main page for the entire Halifax region. It's just nicer, more convienient, and more detailed having it all in one place. When I think of Clayton Park, or even Dartmouth, I don't think of them as separate cities. Even when I lived in Dartmouth I kind of considered myself a Haligonian, just because in my opinion "Halifax" describes the whole region. Ouuplas 02:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay what if we create rename the Halifax, Nova Scotia article to "History of Halifax" and make the Halifax, Nova Scota article basically an extended disamugation page, ie 2 paragraphs about what Halifax was, with linkes to the History, Explosion, HRM, Dartmouth, County and Bedford pages. WayeMason 17:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * So this morning, having my coffee, getting my kids breakfast, I again find a newly created section on the Halifax, Nova Scotia page, a section that already exists on the HRM page. SO finally, I crack.  While Plasma East and I are technically right, that the structure of having the "former city" pages and then the "HRM page" was logical and consistant, practically speaking, I had this massive blast of clarity, that I would spend the rest of my life moving stuff back and forth between HRM and Halifax pages, if I did not clear it up, in terms of how users and especially contributers interface with the pages.  I think 99% of new contributors were landing on the old Halifax, Nova Scotia page and think that we are too lazy to have created a proper city page!  So we now have History of Halifax, and Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city).  Hope that we all feel this is a step forward.  Today I am going to create a Nova Scotia community wikiproject page and I hope we will all get together and contribute!  WayeMason 14:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * All looks great, nice work! Ouuplas 02:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I actually live in Halifax and refer to Dartmouth, Halifax, Bedford, etc... Why not just call the article Halifax Regional Municipality without the Nova Scotia on the end and maintain articles for the specific areas if those articles exist? Charles 17:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
Halifax is at one end of the longest-running saltwater ferry in North America. Dartmouth is the other. Trekphiler 00:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The city of Halifax, Nova Scotia, is known as 2 things. What are they?

Funny name for web-page
I haven't been to this page before ... and I can see much disjointed discussion about this. But I have to say, it's the oddest named Canadian city webpage I've sever seen! Surely it should be just Halifax, Nova Scotia. Nfitz 03:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody is arguing that it is not confusing! But its not a city.  Its a regional municipality.  Haifax is a part of the municipality.  Cities do not, for example, have to have livestock movement and management bylaws, and farming bylaws, but HRM does.  Neither fish nor fowl, HRM continues to be unique and, er, kinda dumb.  But the facts are the facts.  WayeMason 12:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely it's a confusing title, but it's the name that many residents and politicians and media have been using with consistency since amalgamation. They called it something new to appease opponents of the merger and the label has stuck...  I would argue for renaming the article to just "Halifax Regional Municipality" as a first step to simplifying the Wikipedia entry.


 * There have been recent calls for simplifying the entire municipality's name to "Halifax" but this is appears to mostly be from journalists who are likely embarassed at having to go to great lengths at discussing this issue with non-Nova Scotians who don't understand the local politics at play. It's cumbersome and an awkward mouthful which isn't very branding-friendly, but it's still the official name until such time as the local politicos decide to do something about it.


 * Perhaps if they reduce the amalgamated area to the urban core area in the western part of the county and spin the rural northern, eastern and western parts off as district municipalities, then and only then will the naming issue be sorted out more logically.Plasma east 18:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI - I am having a debate with someone else over a similar amalglamation in Ontario (who went so far as to change all Sudbury, Ontario references on all of Wikipedia to Greater Sudbury since the city government ceased to exist). It's being discussed over on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names). Hopefully we can get some sort of national concensus on this. Kirjtc2 01:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

heh, i wish we could go to just calling the whole municipality simply "Halifax". when someone asks me where i'm from, saying "Halifax Regional Municipality" is a mouthful and nobody outside NS has heard of "Bedford". so i just go with Halifax.--Sysys 01:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to weigh-in on a debate that’s already two years old and counting. But I agree with, and applaud, the fine work done by WayeMason and Plasma east in trying to make sense of the mess that is HRM (or The City Formerly Known as Halifax).

A bit of background: Back in the early ‘90s a number of us, then associated with the planning school at TUNS, were keen supporters of amalgamating the conurbation. We believed it desirable to have a single government for what was clearly, from an urban geography point of view, a single city. At the time there were huge tax-base inequities and the resulting development of competing industrial parks was counterproductive (think Bayers Lake). The John Savage government was desperate to stop the haemorrhaging of the province’s finances, (see [] pg. 11) and imposed amalgamation with minimal consultation outside of political circles.

But, but…wait for it… they amalgamated the whole friggin’ county!! In what has to be the most dunderheaded political decision in Nova Scotia’s history, people who’s main municipal concern was whether cats should be required to wear leashes, were lumped in with people for whom a litre of milk was a hour’s ATV ride away. The only truly interesting question is: what were they thinking?

Who knows, but here’s my theory, for what it’s worth. The Nova Scotian political class thinks in terms of constituencies and riding associations, not in terms of urban geography, settlement patterns or cultural communities. Riding associations are, in turn, based on the old historical counties. In fact many, if not most, MLAs are former county councillors, their thinking would go something like this: if we combine the urban areas (Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, Sackville, Cole Harbour) into one unit, what would then be left of the old County of Halifax? In would no longer be viable (which is true). But, instead of the arriving at the obvious answer of splitting it between Guysborough, Lunenburg and Hants; he (and it was really John Savage alone who made the decision) simply combined it all. The county boundaries, meaningless to most Nova Scotians, were too sacred to disturb.

The rest, as they say, is history.--OldCommentator 19:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Its the real name
Its the real name and it would be funny to change it Halifax because not the real name of Halifax regional  Municipality real

Anybody speak Miqmaq?
I had always thought Chebucto meant 'biggest harbour'. But I heard a speech by an old Mikmaq chief recently about the native experience in Nova Scotia, and he said Chebucto means 'sacred fire'. Anybody know which is true? The Singing Badger 19:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not, but there is this great resource at http://www.mikmaqonline.org/ that I have used. Unfortunately it defines Jipugtug as "Halifax." and nothing else.  I searched for lexemes of "sacred" "fire" and "holy" and did not come up with anything related to sacred fire.  However, searching for "big" turns up "Elsipugtug" which it says means Big Cove.  Now, correlation does not imply causation but it seems there is a good chance that "pugtug" is the miqmaw lexeme for "big water" or something similar.  Now, I dunno, thats a wild ass guess, really.  The other important thing is the dictionary is maintained by a band in QUEBEC in the Gaspe, so who knows, maybe there is a Bronx, Brooklyn and Boston accent in Mic Mac...  its something I would sure like to know!  It could also be that there is a similar but not identical word in miqmaq that DOES mean "sacred fire"  hope this gives you a start, anyway!  WayeMason 20:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't speak Miqmaq, but have a native speaker, an aboriginal, and will ask him later tonight, and edit if needed Sod Aries 19:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Peter North
Hey,

In contact with other Nova Scotians (and being one myself) I feel that linking the city of Halifax to Peter North is not needed. In checking with the Peter North article, it leads me to believe that our city has played a minor role in his life, if any at all, and thus, believe it should have minor bearing on this article. User:Sod aries

Robb Wells
I believe that Robb (Ricky) is from Moncton, and not Halifax. Robb Wells mctnguy 23:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Name change?
Any opinions on possibly just changing the name to Halifax, Nova Scotia and starting the article off with:
 * Halifax, Nova Scotia, formally the Halifax Regional Municipality, is a Canadian city in (etc). It is a regional municipality made up of the Halifax Peninsula, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Mainland Halifax, and a number of other communities (see below) that amalgamated in 1996.

Of course the real thing would be much better than that paragraph though. We could have a section with the seperate components of the municipality (Dartmouth, etc), and have a brief description of each along with a link to a main article. Just thought the name change might clear up some confusion. Any idea/opinions? Ouuplas 02:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Halifax and Halifax Regional Municipality are two completely different things . Halifax is alegal place name . Halifax Regional Municipality is an Municipality and the two should seperate - Halifax Regional Municipality is NOT a city but a Municipality that is larger than Prince Edward Island and has 200 communities with in it not leave out that its and urban and rural place Leave it alone it will just cause too much confusion--Vic 04:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't get what you're getting at here by saying "leave it alone". As it stands now, Halifax, Nova Scotia is a redirect to the HRM article. Personally, I stand by my earlier conviction that the main article should be titled Halifax, Nova Scotia and should describe the whole metro area with an emphasis on the former city (see Montreal or Boston for an example of what I mean), while Halifax Regional Municipality should be a smaller article on local government. Kirjtc2 15:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Halifax is like Saint John as "place name" that is uased for postial services 911 and deliery. Halifax Regional Munipality (HRM)is more like the region of York or Peel in Ontario is a "Municipal" unit but with DIFFERENT place names within HRM has 200 or so place name that are totally different from Halifax. Its like the person who wrote that the MacDonal Bridge went from Datmouth to HRM when Dartmouth is in HRM the two are COMPLETELY different from each other. NO if but or maybes .Would you want the mayor tell you he would agree with me .Its an accepted concept between governments and the private sector that the terms "Halifax" and "Halifax Regional Munipality " have two completely different meanig. I find it totally BACKWARDS to use Halifax as Halifax Regional Munipality My address is in "Dartmouth" NOT "Halifax" nor Halifax Regional Munipality  --Vic 18:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC) Also Halifax Regional Munipality has a Rural and urban component and it would missleading to use Halifax intead of Halifax Regional Munipality   because each of those community inclusing Dartmouth  want nothing to do with Halifax in the first place .ALSO Boston is different from Halifax Regional Munipality  in that Boston is a CITY ,Halifax Regional Munipality  is  a Regional Munipality Anyone who lives in the Atlantic Province knows that  --Vic 18:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

--Vic 18:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC) Does not need to be changed - will add to the confusion--JO 01:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

A regional municipality
A regional municipality (or region) is a type of Canadian municipal government which works much like a county; the method of government depends on how it is defined. Sometimes it is legislated or more efficient to provide certain services, such as water, emergency services, and waste management, over an area that includes more than one local municipality. For this reason, regions may be involved in providing services to residents and businesses.

Regional municipalities are sometimes referred to as "upper tier" municipalities --Pat 20:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Title must be changed
I agree with others that the title is cumbersome and unwieldy. It should be at Halifax, Nova Scotia. There may be technical arguments to justify the current title, but I'm sure these have parallels for many other territorial and provincial capitals around the world. --Saforrest 16:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC) You wrong its the Halifax Regional Munipality I live in Dartmouth not halifax .Where do live ? --Pat 20:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC) What part of Ontario are you from ?--Vic 18:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC) The title does not need to be changed --JO 01:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC) The title does not need to be changed its "Halifax Regional Municipality" not Halifax and its not cumbersome its the ACTUAL name of the region and Halifax is a seperate place.--Pat 15:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC) It figures a person from Ontario then Hamilton should be changed to Peel because I find it hard to spell Hamilton all the time and Peel is easier -- go back to spelling school --Pat 15:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

HALIFAX REGIONAL MUNCIPALITY not HALIFAX
It called HALIFAX REGIONAL MUNCIPALITY not HALIFAX. Halifax is a place name of the former city lke Dartmouth  nothing has changed the place name they changed the government of the area .Even Canada Post changed nothing. There are at least 200 place within the area HALIFAX REGIONAL MUNCIPALITY  covers they are not Halgolians they are not Halifax they are the oringial names of the communities NOT  HALIFAX and it not all the capital of Nova Scotia --Vic 17:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC) I agree I live in Darmouth even though it is in the Halifax Regional Muncipality it is not Halifax at all. Halifax and Dartmouth ase separate communities with a common governmental area called Halifax Regional Muncipality. I do not whose idea that Halifax Regional Muncipality should be labled halifax but it show just the ignorance towards the Region and the province as a whole. Any map can show you that Halifax is a place Dartmouth ,Bedford and etc. A good example is the Peel region of Ontario where the police in Brampton is the Peel regional Police in the region of Peel It does convert Brampton into Peel Ontario--Pat 20:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I really think that a more accurate comparison is Toronto. I know we Atlantic Canadians (I'm in St. John's) hate using Toronto as a model for anything, but the situation is pretty parallel - A situation that used to be two-tier (Metro Toronto, Halifax County) and have an "anchor city" (old City of Toronto, old City of Halifax) has been merged into a single-tier municipality (new City of Toronto, HRM). In both cases there are non-"anchor" locations that need to have articles kept alive about them (North York, Ontario or Scarborough, Ontario, for instance, make fairly valid comparisons to Dartmouth or Bedford). These articles are needed both because of the continuing communities they represent and the historical governments that existed. However, there's no real benefit to having the core city still have both an "old" and "new" article. It is simply the case that the only "Halifax" municipality that currently exists is HRM - the one that includes Dartmouth, Bedford, peninsular Halifax, etc. We live in Nova scotia not ONtario we do not like to be compared to Ontarion in ANY way shape or Form--Pat 01:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC) Therefore, I firmly believe that this article should be named "Halifax, Nova Scotia", that it should contain information regarding the entire HRM, but only include significant history of the core. I also believe that there should not be a separate HRM article - though clearly a "Municipal Government of Halifax" article would be useful, if we end up with the luxury to be that thorough.

Oh, and Brampton/Peel is competely different. There is a "City of Brampton". There is no longer a "City of Halifax". Completely irrelevant. A better comparison is Don Mills. Still has a post office, still has it's own dot on a map, but hasn't been an independent municipality in a long time.AshleyMorton 00:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Halifax and the Halifax Regional Muncipality are two complete differnt things. Halifax is not Sheet harbour in fact they 3 hours apart but they both are in the Halifax Regional Muncipality but nobody between Hubbards and Moser River do not say they live in halifax including myself who lives in dartmouth .Unless you live in Halifax your not a Haligonian   HRM is an Muncipal unit NOT a place nor is it Halifax. Unless you live here you have no say in the subject. It would a disserve to the reader of the article to lable it halifax its HRM not halifax --Pat 01:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC) Halifax and the Halifax Regional Muncipality are two complete differnt things I live in Bedford do not consider myself in Halifax but in Bedford .--JO 01:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, this is really frustrating, but I feel the need to respond to a couple of points here.


 * First - Of course the old city of Halifax and the HRM are two different things. I'm not an idiot.  I'm trying to suggest that when it comes to Wikipedia nomenclature, I believe that having a single "Halifax, Nova Scotia" article that includes information about both is the most intelligent, consistent way to do things.


 * Second - the idea that "unless you live here you have no say in the subject" is disgusting. Who gets to write the article on Ellesmere Island, then? No one lives there. How about who gets to write the history of places that have had a genocide? I think it wouldn't necesarily be "only the survivors" The answer is that WE ALL DO. Yes, if you have expertise that I do not have, then display it, by doing things like referencing your data, and I will go away, because you have "won the argument", but telling me, who is honestly doing my best to contribute, that I have no right to participate is against the whole show here, my friend.


 * Finally - Refusing to be "compared to Ontarion (sic)" is silly. Clearly, no one is saying you should adopt the trillium as your flower and start manufacturing cars.  I'm talking about a legitimately parallel regional governance structure, and the way it has ended up in Wikipedia.  The various authors of the HRM article should learn from Toronto's mistakes and benefit from their best practices.  To dismiss it without considering it, simply because of the geography from which it originates, is closed-minded and self-defeating. AshleyMorton 04:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm completly neutral to the whole HRM/Halifax debate simply because I don't feel like arguing and most things I say get shot down pretty quickly but please, let's not use the caps lock so often. It's great to highlight a point but using it out of frustration only makes the page look like a war-zone, most people editing this page are smart enough to take in your point without seeing it capitalized. Theyab 13:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC) I just happen to agree with the person who feels it should not be changed the subject is "Halifax Regional Muncipality nt Halifax . Whoever even thinks of changing the name of the article to "Halifax "shows little respect to the people who lives there ,no wonder the the site has to be taking with a grain of salt--Pat 18:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sheesh, it's hard to tell who's saying what here (start on a new line!). "Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia" just sounds unnecessarily complicated, I think the name should be changed with a portion of the article explaining the 1996 merger, as well as a paragraph focusing on the former city of Halifax. Ouuplas 23:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sheesh, it's hard to tell who's saying what here it seems to me someone is just too lazy to figure out that Halifax is a geographicial place and Halifax Regional Municipality is governmential body over 200 different place . Only someone pushing ignornence in order to saved typing a couple more word to complicted to spell;--Vic 02:10, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * We could still have articles for these 200 different places (as well as mainland and peninsular Halifax), I just think that since the HRM article acts as a sort of gateway to all these other articles, and when someone says "Halifax" it generally refers to the whole area, and also because HRM, NS is overly long, we should think about a name change. Ouuplas 03:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Halifax Regional Municipality is Halifax Regional Municipality not Halifax it just lead to confusion to any who reads it --JO 19:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC) DID ANYONE LOOK AT A MAP OF Halifax to Moser River or is someone blind--Vic 00:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Estabishment
HALIFAX REGIONAL MUNCIPALITY was established in April 1 ,1996 not the settlement of Halifax (former city) in1749,--Vic 18:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

KingFisher
The Kingfisher is not the symbol of HALIFAX REGIONAL MUNCIPALITY its th symbol of the former city of Halifax--Vic 18:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC) I have to agree on this the Kingfisher went the way as the city of Halifax--66.110.6.119 20:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You two sound suspiciously like the same person... Ouuplas 23:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You too sound suspiciously like the same person speading a lie about a major Canadian area. Who is the other ?(two) --Vic 02:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The Kingfisher is definitely not the symbol of HRM and should not be included in this article. Allenwhite 13:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC) The Kingfisher is not the symbol of HRM but of the oold city of halifax--JO 20:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Name change - could someone start a formal vote?
Any thoughts? Would something like that be possible/allowed? I'm sure all the little technicalities could be ironed out in one way or another. Ouuplas 20:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * NO Its LEGAL NAME IS Halifax Regional Municipality  NOT Halifax .aNY OTHER NAME IS wrong Is Hamalton called peel ? Get a grip man  . It should called its LEGAL name the way the government of Nova Scotia calls it --Vic 22:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Any other thoughts? Ouuplas 02:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion on this question, but how on earth is Hamilton vs. Peel a valid comparison? Hamilton and Peel aren't even adjacent to each other, let alone one being part of the other. Bearcat 16:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

NO its a no brianer its Halifax Regional Municipality NOTHING ELSES --Pat 13:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer distinct articles... Dartmouth, Halifax and Bedford are all distinct but form parts of the larger HRM. Halifax should not redirect to HRM. Charles 17:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It is Named Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia
It is Named Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia any one with a grade 5 education can tell you that--Vic 22:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC) If this is deled I WILL complain --Vic 10:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree its name Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia why on earth would be just Halifax when everyone in Halifax called Dartmouth - Dartmouth and Bedford - Bedford  what next call Toronto - York someone needs to back to school and take geography or call something they too lazy to type extra letters .--Pat 13:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree its name is Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia too lets stop this foolishness it being just Halifax--JO 15:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC) No --JO 15:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Halifax, Nova Scotia
JO posted a comment to my talk page asking 'Please stop trying to rename "Halifax Regional Municipality" to Halifax I am offended to be told that I live in Halifax when I do not live there'.

I haven't taken any action to rename anything. I simply voiced an opinion on a talk page.

I am from a small town in Ontario that was in 2001 amalgamated into Hamilton against the wishes of 95% of its inhabitants. So I fully understand why someone from Dartmouth could feel offended if he or she was described as being "from Halifax".

However, the people who you should be annoyed with is not other Wikipedians, but the politicians who performed the rezoning. While I obviously realize that the former "Halifax, Nova Scotia" and "HRM" are distinct entities, it was simply inevitable that HRM would be referred to as "Halifax, Nova Scotia".

I voiced my support for the renaming because I can find no other precedent on Wikipedia anywhere for the "HRM" title. There have been hundreds of city amalgamations in recent history (in Canada alone we have Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Vancouver, and Calgary) and many of the expanded areas have had qualified names distinct from the name of the former city, e.g. "City of Greater X", etc. Yet none of these extra qualifiers are reflected in Wikipedia city names.

I think splitting the history of the capital of Nova Scotia into two articles is also very confusing. Just the other day I was editing an article about the Free French capture of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon in WWII. The force had arrived from Halifax, and so there was a wikilink to Halifax. Do we link to the historical city, or to the HRM? Why should people casually linking to the capital of Nova Scotia have to know which article to link to, when many people would not bother with "Regional Municipality" in casual speech?

The sole meaning "Halifax, Nova Scotia" can have in a modern context is "HRM" because the old Halifax no longer exists. The usage of "Halifax, Nova Scotia" to refer to HRM abounds even in Halifax's official tourism site. So the shorter title should be used because it is simpler, more often used, and more readily understood. By all means, make the distinction between "old Halifax" and "HRM" loud and clear in the article text. But that's where the distinction should be. --Saforrest 16:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I was also asked to "quit ramming this changing the name". I just think the current article name is too confusing to people not familiar to the city, and as you said, all the other city articles have simpler names. I think we should take a look at some of those articles to see how they handled the amalgamation issue and apply it here.


 * I'm tired of having the same bunch of people that became members around the same time as each other (and that all sound the same) flip out at me whenever I suggest a change. I was born in Dartmouth, and like it or not it's still generally considered a part of Halifax, Nova Scotia. Ouuplas 19:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC).


 * Vic 20:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)Why are three people from Hamlton ramming this crap ?


 * Because the "crap" makes sense, mister multiple-accounts. Ouuplas 21:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It is Named Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia
What a bunch of crap ,I lived in Dartmouth for 50 years and nothing changed except for the government of the Municipality  and it called Halifax Regional Municipality. Dartmoth is the same so is Halifax ,Bedford ,Lower Sackville and so is Mosers River which is in HRM but is 100 miles away from HALIFAX NOVA SCOTIA .This name change business is someone in Ontario been TOTALY IGNORANT of anything in Nova Scotia. If a person from Halifax says that Halifax Municipality is diffenert from Halifax Nova Scotia than that is the way it is. . Ouuplas and his other friends from Hamilton or I like to know as (PEEL) better wake up and find out the truth. Otherwise as we Nova Scotia would say "get a life" --Vic 20:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You should really stop taking this so personally. We've not trying to assert Dartmouth, Bedford, etc. don't exist; we're just talking about the name of an encyclopaedia article.
 * First off, I have never dealt with Ouuplas before now, who is not from Hamilton but apparently from Nova Scotia. As far as I know, I'm the only one here from Hamilton.
 * Next, I have no idea where you get this odd idea that "Peel" is related to somehow related to Hamilton. Peel is a regional municipality near Brampton, Ontario, nowhere near Hamilton.  This brings up another point of sockpuppetry which I'll address shortly.
 * Finally, we're here to contribute to an encyclopaedia. When writing an article about a place, the fact of an editor's actually being from that place is only relevant insofar as it is likely to provide special and useful knowledge towards editing.  The rest of the world has as much input into the article about said place as its inhabitants. --Saforrest 21:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ouuplas you really do have too time on you hands ,free advice --you can be sued for this I am lawyer you better delete this or you could be in big trouble —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.75.95.75 (talk • contribs).


 * Perhaps you should also review WP:LEGAL. --Saforrest 15:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Vic, I live in Halifax and I'm embarassed by your attitude. They may be wrong on some issues, but there is no need to act like an idiot about it. Halifax, Nova Scotia, Bedford, Nova Scotia and Dartmouth, Nova Scotia are indeed distinct from each other as communities and at a personal level. They are all contained within the Halifax Regional Municipality though. I don't think Halifax, Nova Scotia should redirect to an HRM page. See Vic? I disagree with some of what they are saying but I've kept my cool. Before you start mentioning people from Ontario since you have such a bad view of them, have you actually lived there? Charles 17:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Possible Sockpuppetry
I am not Matthvm nor patycat sorry --JO 20:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC) I would check the article on slander if I was you --JO 20:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC) I do not know what you point is but would yor energies beter served on the articles than on three people one of them quit in discuss ,I got email from Patycay state she is writing up a formal complaint but this colunm its has nothing to do with Halifax Regional Muncipality is just scarcism against three who want to contribute rather spend time writing arag colunm --JO 10:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC) The behaviour of Matthvm, Jwalker2006, and Patycat makes me suspect that these are not three distinct people:
 * First, as background information, Matthvm's first edit was April 6, 2006, Patycat's first edit was June 19, 2006 , and Jwalker2006's first edit was June 25, 2006.
 * Both Matthvm and Patycat seem to have this odd idea that Hamilton=Peel; Matthvm displayed it above, Patycat displayed it here.
 * At one point Patycat edited Matthvm's userpage, but quickly reverted it.
 * All have made a large number of similar edits (not especially strong by itself):
 * All three contributed large numbers of edits to List of Nova Scotia provincial highways and related articles.
 * Both Matthvm and Patycat have made lots of edits to Petroleum Pricing in Nova Scotia, while leaving a spelling error "Conterversay" uncorrected.
 * Jwalker2006 and Patycat are the only editors who have edited Bras d'Or Lakes Scenic Drive.
 * For three editors who seem to have such similar interests and editing histories, they have apparently never left notices for one another.
 * Jwalker2006 appeared on the scene on June 25 just in time to vote in Articles_for_deletion/Needs_Convenience, in which the other two had already voted.

Matthvm, Jwalker2006, and Patycat, you may wish to review WP:SOCK. If there are less than three people behind these accounts, the credibility of your arguments will be eroded the longer you maintain these separate accounts. --Saforrest 21:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll add a few things too:
 * User:Patycat contradicted his/herself here and here, saying he/she lives in both of the former cities of Halifax and Dartmouth.
 * Both User:Patycat and User:Matthvm have used the distinctive term "ramming" here and here
 * Both User:Patycat and User:Matthvm have lived in the HRM for more or less 50 years. (here and here).
 * User:Patycat has corrected User:Matthvm's mistakes.
 * Plus they all seem to have the same writing habits (lots of spelling errors, use of caps-lock for small groups of words, rudeness, etc). Ouuplas 22:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What a bunch of crap someone has too much on his or who dork up the the communities of Halifax Dartmouth and the rest of Nova scotia At least I do not dork up place like Ouuplas who is part and all of the three Hamilton morons Patycat is a co worker of mine and we just love exposing people like Ouuplas  who by the is the rudes person on the internet  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthvm (talk • contribs).


 * I'm sorry you think I'm the 'rudes person on the internet' [[Image:Sad-tpvgames.gif]]. I'd like to know what you're trying to say, do me a favour and add some punctuation, eh? Ouuplas 00:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

for a person who lives in Nova Scotia you know very little of it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthvm (talk • contribs).


 * What I find so frustrating about this argument is that while Matthvm claims that Ouuplas is the rudest ("rudes") person on the internet, the three of you (Matthvm, Jwalker2006, and patycat), have all done nothing but spew your own opinions and not looked at anyone else's side of the story. You three do sound like one person, it's pretty blatently obvious and if you're not one person, then fine. Stop ganging up on people like Ouuplas, who by the way, is only trying to embetter Wikipedia by pointing out suspected sockpuppetry. Theyab 14:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

They or him or she may be sockpuppets, what I like to know why is the talk here on Halifax Regional Municipality talk page ? Should this discussion be somewhere else ? --66.110.6.119 15:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right, but I mean what do you suggest? The whole argument revolves around the fact that people/one person may be using sock puppets to allow themselves to get what they want, which has everything to do with the whole HRM/Halifax debate. Theyab 21:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)