Talk:Halifax (former city)/Archive 2

Article needs a name modification
Halifax is a community of the Halifax Regional Municipality. Well it be better if the article be "City of Halifax" or "Community of Halifax" or even "Halifax Area" or something without brackets nor including metropolation not to confuse this area of HRM with the other areas of HRM and HRM itself that have different historys and facts. The heading "Halifax, Nova Scotia" the present legal place for the former city of Halifax area should not have be redirecting the Halifax Regional Municipality page and made the whole article on HRM confusing to people outside Nova Scotia.--Bill 20:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no City of Halifax. There is HRM, and then there is the place formerly known as Halifax.  They are two separate places.   It has been 10 years since amalgamation and culturally, economically, and administrationally, urban Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford/County is one unit now.  Renaming this will just run us back into the confusion as per the debates on both the HRM and Halifax Former City talk archives.  As we have said in the past "it is confusing on wikipedia because it is confusing in real life." WayeMason 00:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Halifax Neighbourhoods Input Needed
Okay.

I am tired of god damn real estate agents defining what the neighbourhoods on Halifax are. I am tired of them trying to say the south end extends to Quinpool to justify higher housing prices.

Historically, there was Halifax Town, with a West, North and South ends. Technically, the West End included Quinpool road, thus the WEST END CHURCH on Quinpool at Chestnut.

Anyway, I am looking for input. Below is a suggested neighbourhood map, trying to use the historic names....  Me personally, it sounds hard ass and cool to live in Fort Massey, which would have been the old south end. I don't know if anyone still calls it Fort Massey. I am totally against the north end being everything north of downtown, that is historically not accurate at all. The North End stopped at Richmond, which was just south of the current Hydrostones down to about Veith Street, where Idea of East used to be.... "Richmond Place' was the building.  Also the old naval graving yard (the drydock) was considered to be in Richmond.

Lets talk about where the real neighbourhoods are, lets talk about what the people who live there call them and failing that, what they could/should call them, and lets make a more accurate map.

[]  WayeMason 23:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Population
Er, this article is about Halifax, the former city. It is NOT about HRM. I have to agree that its inappropriate given the structure we have LABORIOUSLY and over a long period of time worked out to put HRM stats on this page. We might as well put the 359K population on the Bedford and Dartmouth pages, too... which is just illogical. WayeMason 01:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree 100% --Markhamman


 * The current population stats for "Halifax" are incorrect - they are for the HRM urban core and not the former city.Plasma east 02:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

History seems short
No mention of the explosion? --AW 18:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Should the title not be simply "Halifax, Nova Scotia"?
It seems to me that the title "Halifax, Nova Scotia" ought belong to this article, rather than being a redirect to the new-fangled "Halifax Regional Municipality". I gather that, despite the administrative amalgamation, the communities involved have not lost their distictiveness, and that "Halifax" is yet understood, locally, to mean Halifax itself -- the area of the former city, proper -- not the new, broader area, encompassing many other communities besides. Certainly this seems to me the natural meaning; communities with a long tradition of being distinct from each other do not ordinarily abandon that tradition in response to a mere administrative act, especially one imposed from higher up. Granted, I don't live nearby, and defer to the opinion of those who do. If it is as I suspect, though, then "Halifax, Nova Scotia" yet means the same area it has meant historically, the administrative dissolution of the "City of Halifax" notwithstanding. If that is so, then this article should be titled "Halifax, Nova Scotia". The title "...(former city)" is cumbersome, and confusing to anyone who does not happen to know beforehand of the details of recent administrative changes in the Halifax area -- which I dare say includes just about any WP user who is not from that region. -- Lonewolf BC 09:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a Map of the Halifax Regional Municipality clearly shows "Halifax, Nova Scotia" should belong to the article Halifax (former city), Nova Scotia while  the Halifax Regional Municipality should be not be the redirected article that is now . The other communities like Dartmouth, Nova Scotia have articles of thier own . Halifax Regional Municipality is no different than York Region where the towns of Markham, Ontario ,Aurora, Ontario,East Gwillimbury, Ontario are. -- Markhamman 16:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Holy cats! This is even more straightforward than I thought. The regional municipality is not even a single connurbation.  Plainly "Halifax, Nova Scotia" does not normally mean that whole broad area, with its many separate communities.  What is the rationale for the resistance (I surmise that there must be resistance) to moving this article to "Halifax, Nova Scotia"? -- Lonewolf BC 19:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the city of Halifax doesn't exist anymore. It'd make about as much sense as having Toronto send you to Metro Toronto. York Region shouldn't be compared to the HRM, YR is made up of a bunch of towns that, as far as I can tell, still have some separate bureaucracies and services. HRM isn't some "newfangled" thing, it's been around for 10 years, and when it was created, it meant the consolidation of everything (just consider regional municipalities to be basically synonymous with cities). Dartmouth is now a part of Halifax. (i.e., Dartmouth doesn't have a higher legal status than say, Clayton Park, because at this point, they're all just names). We've had endless discussions on this, don't just go and redirect the thing like that without a full understanding of the situation. Besides, Halifax Regional Municipality is a much more detailed article - the former city article is essentially just a list of neighbourhoods that once made up the City of Halifax. The capitol of Nova Scotia can't be Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city), because the former city doesn't exist anymore! Sprocket 23:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The city of Halifax no longer exists? Really?  What happened?  Did a giant meteor hit it, and leave a huge crater? What you mean (or at least what you should mean, keeping needful distinctions straight) is that the City of Halifax no longer exists, as a corporate entity.  The physical city of Halifax is just as much there as it has been since the 18th century.  It is this physical (and social) city that people mean when they say "Halifax, Nova Scotia".  I dare say that no one (apart, perhaps, from some bureaucrats and a few a few people with idiosyncratic ideas about geographic nomenclature) means the regional municipality, with all of its many historic settlements having identities of their own, and the open spaces in between.  The world at large is scarcely even aware of this administrative change; the people living in the vicinity (by what I've read in WP, and as anyone would expect) pay it no mind as regards what they mean by "Halifax".  All that has happened is that Halifax has been dis-incorporated as a separate local government, and merged into a larger unit.  So it is now an unincorporated city  instead of an incorporated one.  It is no less distinct, for that.  Most to the point, it is no less what most people mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", and that is the decisive fact, not the administrative divisions and units currently in effect. Any issues of the content and relative quality of the articles are easily remedied.  So they count for nought. This is silly.  Cities exist or not by virture of their physical presence, firstly, and secondarily as social entities.  Administrative units may or may not (not, in this case) be congruent with physical and social reality, but that does not matter to whether a city (or smaller settlement) exists.  The provincial government made an end of the City, only.  It has no power to do away with the city, likewise. -- Lonewolf BC 02:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's one trouble we run into, though: Having Halifax Halifax, Nova Scotia redirect to Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) means that, say, 2014 Commonwealth Games now has us believe that the city of Halifax is bidding on the Commonwealth Games, rather than the HRM, which is what's actually true.


 * These days, Halifax, Dartmouth, and the whole darn region is legally one city; it wouldn't make sense to have a Wikipedia article based on former boundaries. Sprocket 08:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No they are not. They, together with a broad, non-urban surrounding area are legally one "regional municipality", within which are a great number of unincorporated communities of various sizes, distinct from each other, including Halifax. Again, the decisive fact is what people mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", and what they mean is the city of Halifax.  Whether current administrative boundaries conform to that meaning is neither here nor there, any more than it is for any other unincorporated settlement within some broader area of local governance. -- Lonewolf BC 18:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * A simple piped link solves the "problem" you raise where some particular use really means the regional municipality, as in the instance you chose in making the point -- as you knew perfectly well, whereas it was you who saw to that (diff), over a year ago. -- Lonewolf BC 18:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, when I say "Halifax", I mean the whole region. When I lived in Dartmouth, I always said I lived in Halifax. If I was were to say Dartmouth I might as well have said Manor Park, Nova Scotia. The "Halifax" population number in the census, for example, is the population of the whole regional municipality, not just for the area within boundaries that haven't had any bearing since 1996. Since I can see this is (puzzlingly) a controversial issue, can I suggest we have a Third opinion done to avoid the constant reverting? Sprocket 21:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... Well, that's you. The question is, what does the English-speaking world at large mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", which is surely not the broad and almost wholly non-urban area shown by that map of the regional municipality.  One look at that and I'll warrant that the vast majority of people will say that they mean the actual city. I note that you have gotten into this same disagreement with a number of people.  That should tell you something.  So in a sense this matter has already been put to third parties, and the consensus has been that "Halifax, Nova Scotia" ordinarily means the (physical) city, not the (administrative) region, and should redirect accordingly.  However, if you want to put this to a "Request for comment", that is fine with me. -- Lonewolf BC 22:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC) PS: Note the flaw, too, in your example of Dartmouth.  I would not be much surprised if many people in and around Halifax use "Halifax" to mean "greater Halifax", including Dartmouth and the rest of the Halifax connurbation.  This is not at all the same thing as meaning the area of the regional municipality, of which that connurbation is only a very small part. -- Lonewolf BC 22:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Can the article Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) should be changed to Halifax, Nova Scotia ? Or an act of congress is needed to do it. Whoever started in the first place should of researched the title before even writing it. The city yes does not exist as a city but the area is still considered "Halifax Nova Scotia" the same goes with Dartmouth and Bedford by the very government who created the Halifax Regional Municipality in the first place --D052

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC) Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) → Halifax, Nova Scotia — The article ought be moved back to its former, and right place, which accords with WP naming standards, common usage and common sense. The article's move from there to its present title relates to the dissolution of the city's municipal government, the City of Halifax, into the county-sized Halifax Regional Municipality. The present title wrongly suggests that "Halifax, Nova Scotia" now means that county-sized area, and that the city (lowercase) of Halifax no longer exists. This is balderdash. Halifax, the physical city as distinct from a separate municipal government for that city alone, still exists as much as ever, geographically apart from any other urban area, having its own civic identity and (for what this last matters) recognised as such by the Nova Scotia government. Most importantly, the city is what people everywhere mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia". The world at large is scarcely even aware that the city government has been dissolved into a larger "regional municipality", and no one with any sense, looking at the county-sized and mostly rural area of the regional municipality, would take the view that "Halifax, Nova Scotia" now means the whole area rather than meaning the actual city that it has always meant. Lonewolf BC 07:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

 * 1) Support, as explained in the move-proposal. See also the earlier discussions of this matter.  -- Lonewolf BC 07:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support.  "former city" is just plain silly.  Andrwsc 07:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support I agree that "former city" is just plain silly. The article describes what the Government of Canada and Nova Scotia both state - there is a "Halifax Nova Scotia " separate from the HRM also Canada Post and the HRM website  refers it as Halifax Nova Scotia as well separate from the rest of the communities of HRM . In a nutshell the community of Halifax exist and the title should just plain " Halifax, Nova Scotia --3250445 13:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. It might not be a legal entity, but it still very much exists. - SimonP 16:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Support Yes it should go to Halifax, Nova Scotia it still exists --Markhamman 18:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Support, useless disambiguator if the target redirects here anyways. Voretus 19:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) Support What, is it 1918 again? Speedy this one, the current title is ridiculous. -- BlueSquadron Raven  21:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) Support, this should have been done ages ago. Charles 21:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Support The article describes the present day Halifax, Nova Scotia - nothing former about it. The current title is ridiculous --D052 22:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) Support - This should have been done long ago. It should probably be moved to just "Halifax", but that's another debate. DB (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) Support. Per WP:COMMONNAME. The esoteric arcana of its place in the regional/municipal scheme of things can be untangled in the article. -- Sig Pig  |SEND - OVER 04:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) Support. What we really need is a procedure where an objection to undiscussed moves means they are reverted and the burden of establishing good reason for the move is placed on those wanting to move it.  Gene Nygaard 20:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's generally how it works. If you disagree with a move that was made unilaterally, move it back and tell the editor to put up a move request. DB (talk) 22:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with any purely procedural move. If someone raises an objection to an undiscussed move, the correct action is to stop moving the page and discuss what the title ought to be, not to presume that the objector is right and that the move was incorrect.  Reverting an undiscussed move before discussing it is contributing to a revert war.  See Wikipedia talk:Requested moves and The Wrong Version. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Support just to pile on and agree with Gene Nygaard that undiscussed moves should be reverted before a RM discussion. —  AjaxSmack     07:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A city, or just a place-name?
Merriam-Webster Online defines a city as:

1 a : an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village b : an incorporated British town usually of major size or importance having the status of an episcopal see c capitalized (1) : the financial district of London (2) : the influential financial interests of the British economy d : a usually large or important municipality in the United States governed under a charter granted by the state e : an incorporated municipal unit of the highest class in Canada

Lets study this...

a - Halifax is now a contiguous conurbation stretching from out towards Chebucto head, west to Timberlea, and up the harbour toward Bedford. The whole metro Halifax conurbation is a city, but the old ci ty of Halifax has been absorbed into this larger unit b - Halifax is not incorporated c - it is not the city of London! :) d - is not under a charter (its under two or three, Halifax Mainland and Halifax peninsula, and maybe the Capital district) e - again, it is not incorporated.

Halifax is not a city. It is bad wiki to say Halifax, inside of the old boundaries, is a city. You could create a new article called Halifax Urban Area or Urban Halifax, Nova Scotia, or something, and talk about that, I suppose.

As an aside - my personal feeling is that the Chebucto area (the former mainland) is going to strengthen in identity, and Halifax will become just the peninsula, with it's North, South and West ends of Halifax. But thats not fully common usage yet... WayeMason 10:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Halifax is "an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village". In a word, it is a city.  It makes no difference that the city is bigger now than formerly, nor that its exact bounds are arguable.  There is little purpose in consulting a dictionary over such a commonly understood word as "city", and even less in noting that Halifax does not meet any of its more particular definitions.  It meets the common definition, and that is both obvious and enough. -- Lonewolf BC 19:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The former city of Halifax is not "an inhabited place of greater size, population or importance than a town or village." The entire urban area of HRM is that, you see?  Why would you maintain that a small part of the inside of the contiguous urban area is still a "city" when there is no demographic, geographic or legal reason to do so?  Again, time marches on.  Nobody talks about the "Town of Willowdale" which was long ago subsumed by North York,  it's now just the neighbourhood of Willowdale.   Nobody talks about the "Town of Richmond" which was long ago absorbed by Halifax.  Nobody talks about "Williamsberg" they just talk about Brooklyn.   Things change.  This changed.  There is no city of Halifax.  Please be mindful of the three changes rule.  You are running out of opportunities to change this back.  Also please don't edit the title to my comments, thats silly. WayeMason 19:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What is silly is for you to insist that Halifax is a "former city", when it is a current city by the common understanding of what is a city. "Why would you maintain that a small part ... legal reason to do so?" You are begging the question. "Again, time marches on. ... Things change.  This changed.  There is no city of Halifax."  Things change, but this did not.  Again, you are begging the question.  There is still a city of Halifax, albeit that there is no City of Halifax.  Because of the lack of a corresponding municipal government, and of its physical growth, Halifax's boundaries are arguable, as said, but that does not mean it has ceased to be. -- Lonewolf BC 19:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So, in an effort to have some good will, would you be satisfied if we had a Halifax, Nova Scotia article about the former city, and a Halifax Urban Area article?   My issue here, again, is that there is an urban area of Halifax a city, that is a continuous area all around the harbour, and then there is a community of Halifax, and the boarders are not the same.  Do you even live in Halifax?  Are you familiar with the common uses as have emerged since amalgamation?  If I called all the city councilors in and polled them, or called city planning and asked them, would you accept the answer if they disagreed with you?   What kind of research and/or footnotable references can we find  to help solve this issue?  WayeMason 22:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Too many questions, too rhetorical, and too little to the point. Current information  shows Halifax to be both readily distinguishable, geographically, and actually distinguished as a "Metropolitan Area", bureaucratically,  -- in short, a city.  HRM's "Western Region" of its "Urban Core" equates nicely, if not perfectly, likewise recognising the ongoing existence of this identifiable city.  Write whatever other articles you wish and can get to pass muster, but please stop putting it about that Halifax is a "former city". -- Lonewolf BC 15:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The website you use as a reference states that Halifax status is that of a metropolitan area, not a city. Your own reference agrees with my point.  If you change your tone, act with some good faith, and focus on determining the facts I am sure we can get through this to the objective facts. WayeMason 18:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it quite disagrees with your point. You are confusing being a city, in physical fact, with being a City, as a legal entity. A city, by any other name is still a city; the reason that Halifax is a recognized "Metropolitan Area" is that it is a city in physical fact -- and likewise for Dartmouth, separately so recognized. By the way, I don't much care for your tone, either, and care even less for your accusations of bad faith.  Tone is somewhat subjective, of course, and prone to misinterpretation, making a degree of charity and tolerance wise, in that regard.  Your accusation, on the other hand, has been made  altogether too explicit.  No more, please. -- Lonewolf BC 19:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You, sir, started the personal attacks, as the record above clearly shows. You wrote  Write whatever other articles you wish and can get to pass muster  How can a statement like this be considered good faith?  Maybe you will reconsider this statement and apologize?
 * Anyway, back to the issue.
 * We continue to circle this, in terms of your interpretation of facts and phrases verses mine. Obviously we are not going to agree on the issue.  I have proposed that we find additional information that we will agree to abide by or agree to a framework to resolve our disagreement.  I am not going to agree with you, unless you bring new information, I just cannot agree to your view as I don't think the facts support it.  So we need to find a way that we can bring in more information or agree on a definitive source.  For example, I could go and speak to Andy Fullmer at HRM planning, Frank Polarmo at Dal Cities and Environment Unit, and maybe the CAO of HRM.  Or maybe the head of Heritage and ask them their opinions.  Or we could ask some English professors.  But we clearly need to find more sources here in order to move toward a resolution.
 * Anyway, I cannot talk about this any more tonight as I have to go to bed.  Tomorrow I will be participating as a guest panelist on the CBC Radio town hall about the  future of the city, which as far as the good people at CBC and 9 other guests (city planners, some politicians, other culture and planning activists) are concerned is all of HRM on this show.  Listen in if you want, its on from 6:00-8:30 AST at this link.  I am on at 8:00ish  WayeMason 01:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * With regard to the "personal attacks" you suppose that I started, one often hears of ironic remarks getting misconstrued, in mediums such as this, when a reader takes them literally, but I believe this is the first instance I've met in which a remark has been misconstrued by failure to take it literally. I'm not sure just how you have managed to interpret my "Write whatever other articles..." as an attack on you or an act of bad faith, but it was neither.  Any such aspect has been read into it by you.  It really means what the very words say, and I wrote it with reference to your suggestion of having a "Halifax Urban Area" article. No authority can trump the physical facts on the ground, which unsurprisingly show that the city of Halifax is still there, but politicians and officials connected with HRM are particularly liable to have an interest in promoting some uncommon notion of what Halifax is or is not. -- Lonewolf BC 19:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So, if the politicans, planners, etc disagree with you they have are biased against the facts.  Again, your assertions are being challenged,  I have proposed several frameworks so we can seek more data and move forward on this issue.  I will get emails from Service Nova Scotia Municipal Relations, HRM Planning, HRM Politicans, area MLAs, whatever.  How about the opinion of the head of Urban Planning at the regions biggest University.   WayeMason 01:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * As an aside, today for 2 hours on the CBC morning show they talked about the future of our city, Halifax. Journalists, planners, an activist, an architect, a novelist, a Festival promoter (me) all talked as well as members of the audience.  When we were speaking about the city, we were talking about HRM.  Some people were talking about issues specific to neighborhoods in Dartmouth, Bedford, inside of the discussion about our city.   No one was talking about "just the old city area" they were talking about 'the city' meaning all of it, all of urban Halifax.   I am more convinced than ever that the common or popular usage in media and everyday use is to call HRM Halifax, and the city, interchangeably.  The discussion is archived on the CBC Nova Scotia website if anyone wants to listen.  I find this whole debate an increasingly depressing waste of time.  WayeMason 01:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "So, if the politicans, planners, etc disagree..." No, that's not what I said. I said that official pronouncements or other "expert" opinions do not trump physical facts and the common understanding of what is a city -- and are of even less value when they are liable to be biased, as is the case with politicians and officials of the regional municipality, in relation to the question at hand. -- Lonewolf BC 02:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * So your solution is for us to come to an good faith agreement is? Or are you just *right* and I am supposed to agree with you now?   WayeMason 13:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "...an incorporated municipality, usually governed by a mayor and a board of aldermen or councilmen." (city, dictionary.com)
 * If anything, this article should be a subsection of Halifax Regional Municipality (which, in turn, should be renamed to Halifax, Nova Scotia). When I say "Halifax", I'm talking about the peninsula, Dartmouth, Bedford, and the whole area. I use to argue over this subject a lot, I got tired of it, but it seems ridiculous to have two articles on basically the same subject. As of 1996, "Halifax" is not just the peninsula, it is the entire Halifax county. I'm gonna have to side with Wayemason on this one. Sprocket 00:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Halifax, Nova Scotia is a un unincorporated community and is a placename unlike the Halifax Regional Municipality which a incorporated Regional municipality. The term city does not fit into both reguardless what the media say because HRM ,Federal, and Nova Scotia websites state HRM as a regional municipality --D053 10:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the header to reflect the debate underway without prejudicing it. WayeMason 16:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I just want to let it be known that D053 is a sockpuppet of Matthvm. Sprocket 18:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks. Blocked. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I ask you again, what means are you willing to agree to so we can "sort this out" as we were asked to? Right now, we have 2 against, 1 for, and one sock puppet against calling it a city.  Hardly conclusive.  We can take a poll of authoritative sources, and/or we can try and work out a compromise on wording.  But we cannot leave the page locked forever.   WayeMason 22:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This ought not be needed, but in the interests of putting this "former city" stuff to rest: "Halifax, capital of Nova Scotia and the largest city in Atlantic Canada .... On 1 April 1996 Halifax was amalgamated with neighbouring communities to form Halifax Regional Municipal Government, but its individual identity has been retained." (emphasis mine) -- The Canadian Encyclopedia, 2000 ed. The notion that Halifax is a "former city" is nought but a bizarre "original research" thesis -- an odd POV which for some reason a few people have been zealously pushing among Halifax-related articles. It defies ordinary concepts of what is a city.  It is has no reliable sources.  The unanimous outcome of the requested move debate, in which so many answerers felt inclined to comment, besides, on how ridiculous "former city" was, in the former title of the article, shows up how ridiculous people typically regard the denial of Halifax's on-going city-hood as being.  This whole issue is preposterous, and in the lack of any good source for the position that the city of Halifax is no more, this point is not rightly even moot. -- Lonewolf BC 01:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 1- Your source is 7 years old. HRM has changed a lot in 7 years. 2 - your source says that our individual identity has been retained, no one is arguing that, but a community is not a necessarily a city 3- The community of Halifax, Nova Scotia exists, thus rendering any attempt to apply the vote on the name of the article to our little tiff as inconclusive at best, misleading at worst. 4 -  Your own source above   says that Halifax (City) was incorporated in 1841. Confirmed 1 March 1921. Status changed to Metropolitan Area when the City was dissolved by the creation of Halifax Regional Municipality on 1 April 1996 by Bill 3.  5  - using big words and blustering a lot is not an particularly effective argument on your part. 6 - I have tried to talk to you directly about coming to a consensus agreement on rewording the lead paragraph in the article to no avail.


 * Obviously there is a city here. My issue with your definition is that your definition is increasingly arbitrary, as the full cultural, infrastructure, economic and political integration of the urban parts of HRM is pretty much complete above the neighborhood or community level.  The city is all of urban HRM that wraps around Halifax harbour.  Halifax is a community in HRM, and a community in urban HRM.  Again, no one still talks about the Town of Willowdale.  Its a neighbourhood of Toronto.     WayeMason 01:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Protection
The protection has expired. Rather than reprotect it I have removed the header that was being warred over and replaced it with the. I did it because it appeared to be a more neutral template. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The plain "otheruses" is fine by me. -- Lonewolf BC 23:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Re-write of introduction
In an effort to keep our little tiff from exploding again, here is my proposed new introduction to the article. We may not agree on much, but surely we can agree the current introduction is just badly writen...


 * Halifax was founded by the British goverment under the direction of the Board of Trade and Plantations under the command of Governor Edward Cornwallis in 1749


 * After a protracted struggle between residents and the Executive Council, the city was incorporated in 1841. Halifax was also the shire town of Halifax County.  On 1 April, 1996, the government of Nova Scotia amalgamated the four municipalities within Halifax County, among them the City of Halifax, and formed Halifax Regional Municipality, a  single-tier regional government covering that whole area.  The City of Halifax ceased to be a legal entity, but the city of Halifax is still recognised as unincorporated "Metropolitan Area" by the provincial government.   Residents of Halifax are called Haligonians.

Will you be okay with this? WayeMason 00:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

(The just-above, by WayeMason, moved to here from my talk-page. -- Lonewolf BC 01:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC))


 * Off-hand, I don't see any see any grave problems with that as a replacement for the second paragraph that is there now -- so long as the very opening sentence ("Halifax is...") stays. -- Lonewolf BC 01:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So as soon as the protection comes off you have to add the word city again? Nice.  Very nice. Thats some high quality good faith discussion. How can you say Halifax is the biggest city in Atlantic Canada when the only actual authoritative source, Statscan, refers to it as the former city?  Are you going to delete HRM from lists cities and insert a geographic area with no formal boundaries, no recognized legal existence, instead? WayeMason 01:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please quit flinging accusastions. I did no such thing -- any more than I did the other things of which you've accused me. It is not legal status, nor legal city limits, nor Statscan's words or divisions that make a city a city. -- Lonewolf BC 04:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been following this with some interest but staying out of it thus far. My question for Lonewolf BC:   If the gov't of BC dissolved every incorporated municipality in greater Vancouver and placed them under a new municipality called Fraser Valley Regional Municipality, and 12 years later after the entire FVRM grew to encompass a completely integrated municipal unit, would you refer to FVRM as a city, or Vancouver as a city, or both? I'll be the first to admit that the HRM concept is very confusing for non-residents and residents alike, but it is what the elected representatives provincially and municipally chose to do (to placate those opposed to amalgamation).  Governments have made a very conscious effort to make the entire regional municpality work as a single unit, which can be seen in development strategies, statistical gathering, etc.  I know it defies the popular logic about "cities" but it is a concept that the residents of HRM have chosen to live with.  If everyone is to be amalgamated, no single "former" municipality stands to rise above the rest. Plasma east 14:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please answer your own question or, better yet, just make your point straightforwardly. You touch upon political considerations, and consequent actions of governments, which tend to make mine. -- Lonewolf BC 17:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well my answer tends to follow the standard line that many people in HRM follow - it's a region. "Halifax" was founded in 1749, incorporated in 1841 and dissolved in 1996.  I admit that it is confusing, wherein the former "City of Halifax" uses the same name "Halifax" that is found in "Halifax County" and the new "Halifax Regional Municipality".  It would have been much easier if the provincial gov't had chosen an entirely new name for the regional municipality, such as "Chebucto".  But you shouldn't discount the fact that HRM is a single-tier municipality - this is the essence of the debate you and WayeMason are having.  What you are suggesting be adopted here appears to be an ambiguous definition of a city, vs. the legal incorporation as defined under the laws of the Province of Nova Scotia.  Residents of the new "region" were adamant that if amalgamation were to be successful, all former municipalities must disappear completely.  There is no reason why "Halifax" as a city should exist in Wikipedia, when it does not in legal actuality among the residents of this region - anymore than Dartmouth would, or Bedford, or the former Municipality of the County of Halifax.  I don't really think Wikipedia should be the place for a philosophical discussion about whether a city "exists" or not - we should go by the existing definition of the jurisdiction it is incporated under.  Let bureaucrats and politicians debate it and we should accept whatever status they accord to the entity. Plasma east 18:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course there is a city here. The city is all all of urban HRM.  Of course there is a western region, a Halifax community, a Halifax Metropolitan area.  All these things are true.  The most telling statement you have made, Lonewolf BC, is this There is little purpose in consulting a dictionary over such a commonly understood word as "city", and even less in noting that Halifax does not meet any of its more particular definitions. It meets the common definition, and that is both obvious and enough.  This is totally unacceptable.  Your argument revolves around the fact that there is a common and obvious definition, and that even if abundant sources, from the HRM site, the Province's Geonova site, the federal Geomatics site, every dictionary site, wikipedias own page on cities, all disagree with you, then they are wrong, because it is obvious and common, so obvious no one bothered to actually make a reference?  As a side note, I am going to edit the line that say that it is the capital of Nova Scotia.  The act that created HRM clearly states that HRM succeeds City of Halifax in terms of all provincial legislation and that the word Halifax in older legislation refers to HRM as of 1996.  Unfortunately that act is not on line, but if you look at the Elections Act, which is on line, the word Halifax is removed and Halifax Regional Municipality is inserted.  These two acts clearly mean that the Capital of Nova Scotia is HRM. WayeMason 19:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The "common and obvious definition" of "city" is the one that most any English-speaker knows, the one that appears first in dictionaries, and the one I am applying in calling Halifax a city. When I wrote, "There is little purpose...", I meant that consulting a dictionary over so well known a word tells us nought that we did not already know, and so is rather pointless.  I did not mean, and do not in any way suggest, that some personal understanding of the word should override the dictionary's definition.  But, contrary to your suggestion, I am not contradicting or seeking to ignore the dictionary. -- Lonewolf BC 21:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE - Responses to the request for comment should be placed above in the area marked for comments on the RFC WayeMason 01:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Capital of Nova Scotia is:
The capital of Nova Scotia is HRM, please see this press release establishing the Capital Commission in HRM and the legislation creating the Capital Commission. WayeMason 10:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The capital of Nova Scotia is Halifax, because that is where the legislature and such are. That is why the article in The Canadian Encyclopedia says so. The capital may also be HRM, is a different and more specialised sense. -- Lonewolf BC 17:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That is absolute and total nonsense. You could then say it is correct to say that Halifax Peninsula and Downtown Halifax are also the capital because they also used to be cities and used to be the capitals, back before the city grew and changed.   The LAW says that there is a capital in HRM.  You are now misrepresenting and replacing facts and laws with your own views.WayeMason 18:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that's just using plain English: A capital, by common understanding, is the city in which the government of the political unit is located.  In the case of Nova Scotia, that city is Halifax.  The special legal definition of the capital of Nova Scotia is -- and I take your word for this -- Halifax Regional Municipality, but legislation often has special definitions for things.  Again, by common understanding, a capital city means the whole city.  Sometimes "capital" is also used to mean the part of a capital city where the government buildings are.  Moscow is the capital of Russia; so is the Kremlin.  I don't know that any part of Halifax is customarily referred to in that way, but if it is then that is also correct.  This does not make it any less correct to call Halifax the capital of Nova Scotia.  It is you who is making an "original research" interpretation -- that the details of the legislation must affect or take priority over the common understanding, for the purposes of an encyclopedia.  Perhaps you should argue with McCann.  As of now, you have no source to back your interpretation. -- Lonewolf BC 18:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Your common understanding is not footnote-able. I have provided sources.  Your tone remains a disappointment.  I know you feel passionately that you are right, but again, no one profits if you continue to argue your point verbatim without dialog that leads toward any kind of consensus.  I have tried to engage you directly in dialog on your talk page, and have tried to suggest several frameworks for resolving this dispute and several times have suggested compromise wording or strategy, but you have, as of this writing, not attempted to participate in any of these solutions.  Right now the record shows five users since January changing the page to read some form of "community and former city" and one user, you, changing it back.
 * Please review Resolving_disputes, and also Request_for_comments(you should be following the suggested model for an RFC which you have not as of this time) and Civility for guidance as well.   I am not going to be bullied by you.  I will dialog with you about a meaningful compromise that represents the opposing views on the page, or otherwise incorporates a compromise.  You may want to keep this in mind, and start communicating in a constructive way, that will result in us getting on with make good wiki.  WayeMason 00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My "common understanding" may be found in any dictionary. You've given sources that do not support you except by your "original research" interpretation of them.  On the other hand, standard reference works straightforwardly support that Halifax is a city, and the capital of Nova Scotia.  Spare me your rhetoric and attempted villainisation of me, and please stop making this out to be personal.  I do not mean to hurt your feelings or sound harsh by trying to stay brief and to-the-point, but these are simple matters of fact.  Wikipedia is not the place to promote pet points-of-view, which seems to be what you and a few others are doing, I am sorry to say. -- Lonewolf BC 01:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * if these references are indeed so straightforward, then why not produce one (post-April 1996, of course)? When was the Canadian Encyclopedia article written?  WayeMason has  produced two citeable sources that refer explicitly to HRM being the capital of Nova Scotia - this is not a question of interpretation, unless HRM is to be considered an unreliable source?  Be careful too with what may appear to be straightforward for as WayeMason and perhaps others have pointed out on talk pages here on this is that since '96 many including HRM themselves refer to HRM, in less formal language use, as 'Halifax'.   Mayumashu 15:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Britannica says:
As if The Canadian Encyclopedia were not enough, Britannica likewise says of Halifax, "city, capital of Nova Scotia, Canada,...". Britannica Concise says the same, and also notes the 1996 amalgamation while giving different 2001 populations for the city (119,292) and the municipality (359,183), thus making plain that city and municipality are not identical. Surely that trumps the "original research" interpretations to the contrary that a few WP editors wish to make from primary sources and personal observations. So can we please make an end of these issues? Halifax is a city, the capital of Nova Scotia, and not the same thing as Halifax Regional Municipality. -- Lonewolf BC 21:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Primary sources are considered more authoritative than secondary sources... HRM Government here: provincial legislation here WayeMason 10:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This Britannia article refers to population info from 1991 - doesn't this suggest that it's dated? And no mention is made of HRM, which too suggests this hasn t been updated. These points do not refute outright the validity of this source, but call it into question Mayumashu 16:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Primay sources are not necessarily more authoritative than secondary ones, and in any case you are making an interpretation of primary sources, which is "original research", and as such is forbidden on Wikipedia. -- Lonewolf BC 23:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not obviously not original research to point to legislation and say "here is where it says this thing," or a press release that says "HRM is the capital of Nova Scotia". WayeMason 23:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is original research to take a act that does not directly deal with what is or is not the capital of Nova Scotia, and a quotation from the mayor in an HRM press release, wherein he says "...Halifax Regional Municipality faces unique challenges as the capital of Nova Scotia and the largest municipality in Atlantic Canada...", and conclude from them that Halifax is not the capital of Nova Scotia. -- Lonewolf BC 02:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * but this at least says that someone of authority (the mayor of HRM) considers HRM the capital, something you have not been willing to admit thus far. compromising language that allows for both non-official views is in order, something like,  'The capital of Nova Scotia is city of Halifax, taken by some to refer to what constituted the City of Halifax until April 1, 1996, and by others (including its mayor [source]) to be the whole of Halifax Regional Municipality.'  Mayumashu 16:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Page protection again
I protected the page again due to the ongoing back and forth. The structure of the first sentence is a bit odd "...is the capital the province of...". Also why have the population figures for Halifax not been updated to the 2006 Census? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Point 1- error, I guess we have been so busy whipping the page back and forth no one had time for actual editing 2 - If you look at it, the census these are teh 2006 stats for the HRM.  Statscan only maintains former city stats for historical reasons, but because it is no longer a primary municipality, they don't give it a community profile.    They maintain it here as  as Halifax Nova Scotia (City / Dissolved)WayeMason 22:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The second of the two links is for the 2001 Census. There should then be a link to Halifax Nova Scotia (City/Dissolved) for the 2006 Census. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The have not done the data yet, its not published, you see, because its not a community. It is a historical data set.  Yes I am editorialising, but thats why it is not there.  Look here  and type in Halifax and you will see its not there yet.WayeMason 22:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The oddity with the opening sentence is just an oversight. It was meant to be "...is the capital of the province of Nova Scotia...", I believe, but I think just "...is the capital of Nova Scotia..." would be better. -- Lonewolf BC 02:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

New category, perfect for this page
Category:Former cities in Canada. Perfectly designed of the headache that is Halifax. Cheers. Kevlar67 02:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * PS why not just call this Old Halifax to match Old Toronto? Kevlar67 15:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Because at this time no one actually calls it that.  WayeMason 01:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting, why not? What do they call it? Kevlar67 04:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A brief summary? Verifiable Footnotable Information Somewhat verifiable (via CBC, etc) but really not yet encyclopedia ready
 * HRM uses the following terms:
 * Urban Core - peninsula Halifax and Dartmouth inside the circumferential
 * Western Region -Peninsula, Mainland, suburban and rural commutershed to the old county line
 * Halifax Peninsula for the peninsula planning area
 * Halifax Peninsula Community Council - community council for the peninsula
 * Mainland Halifax for the old city mainland area
 * Chebucto Community Council - community council for the peninsula
 * Province of Nova Scota
 * Halifax metropolitan area for the old city of Halifax (which is the opposite of the generally meaning of metropolitan area which is normally used to describe the commutershed that is larger than the incorporated city)
 * Statscan
 * Halifax (former city) - the old bounderies
 * Halifax Urban Area (270K people, includes Halifax and Dartmouth, Bedford, commutershed)
 * Service Canada
 * Halifax Economic Area - the commutershed, or Urban Area
 * Regular Everyday People - People from outside HRM
 * Halifax or "the city" - most people say this for the urban area. My brother in law is from Chester, he said when I told him of this debate "nobody in the province says 'I am going to Dartmouth and Halifax' when they are going into the city to shop at Mic Mac Mall and Bayers Lake, they are going to Halifax"
 * Regular Everyday People - from inside HRM urban area
 * Halifax - I live in the south or west end of the city, I say I am from Halifax. People from the peninsula always do this.  People from Mainland sometimes do this.  People from Dartmouth never do this when speaking in Halifax and Nova Scotia.  As a kid, from Dartmouth, living in Toronto and London, UK, I always said I was from Halifax, because Dartmouth, well, who knew were that was?
 * Fairview/Clayton Park/Spryfield - I was at a Metro Basketball League finals game the other day and the kids from the mainland said "I am from ." My son said "I am from Halifax".
 * The Media
 * the city - for urban Halifax. CBC Nova Scotia, the Herald and other local news sources use the word city when they are referring to the HRM ( This is footnoteable.) though they are really talking about the urban area
 * Metro - Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford used to be called "Metropolitan Halifax" and the Metrpolitan Halifax Authority was the regional coodinating body that ran things like Metro Transit, and waste removal.

anyone have anything to add to that, or did I get them all? :) WayeMason 10:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * GeoNova shows Halifax like this Halifax - Dartmouth area ( just zoom in for detail) as for Stats Canada you can still get the population for both Halifax and dartmouth but you need get the software which is $65 to get it . They usually do not release such numbers for another year .--Sonyuser 14:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can get the 2006 population by zooming and counting the indiviual tracts and adding it up--Sonyuser 19:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)