Talk:Halloween/Archive 10

Symbols
The most famous and obvious symbol used in the contemporary celebration of Halloween is the carved pumpkin. This particular symbol can be clearly be traced back to the story of "Stingy Jack" and the Irish tradition of carving turnips into lanterns. It is not an American invention at all. Early Irish immigrants to America, finding no turnips there, used the local (and seasonal) pumpkins as an alternative. According to my now deceased grandmother, who lived in Dublin, the "Stingy Jack" story is several centuries old and has been used as a parable by Irish parents to their children since at least the late 19th century. Somebody repeatedly removes my paragraph about the pumpkins. The information is found on wikipedia's own page about Jack_o_lantern. I get the feeling that there is a strong anti-Irish element at play who are manipulating the information on this subject to suit their own bigotry or agenda. --Catholicjim 23:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't recall the "Stingy Jack" story being told in my family (I'm an American of Munster and Ulster descent), so I can't really comment on that. However, I am familiar with the Irish (and Scottish?) forerunner to the pumpkin being the turnip.  When the lanterns were carved from turnips they were certainly easier to carry around.  Turnips do grow here, but I think the pumpkin simply provided an option for a bigger lantern and more elaborate carvings. --Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫♦♫ 00:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Guess what? I researched and wrote most of Wikipedia's article on the Jack-o'-lantern. — Walloon 00:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done. I encourage you to do a bit more research and add more to the article.--Catholicjim 01:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And even with a picture of a Turnip Jack. Cool. --Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫♦♫ 02:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL, the scottish die not celebrate Halloween in the same way as the Irish. The people in Scotland who celebrated Halloween were the Irish of the 1850's.  Why is every dick trying to claim Halloween.  It's really an Irish tradition, and as we know, being one of them, the WASPS hat the Irish. Period. No POPERY around here!!!!!!!!!!!86.42.146.214 01:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? It's big in Ireland because you get a holiday but don't try to deride my culture when you can't even spell, never mind make proper sense. You don't get WASPs in Scotland (where I live), just plain old wasps (or wappies as we cry them). They've never hatted me - as far as I can tell they're all too small to wear hats. Besides which you're just plain wrong about Halloween195.153.45.54 11:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

...also called Spooky Day...
...by who?!--Moonlight Mile 03:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just reading that, and I was like "WTF" if one more person agrees with us, let's change it. Bifgis 01:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

spelling style
Which English? British or American? A recent edit went through and changed a number of words that were correct British english such as practising as a verb to practicing and centre to center. This is naturally irritating to the British English writer, as no doubt the reverse would be.

According to the style manual, each article picks a predominant style and sticks to it.

What style is appropriate for this particular topic? Any comments? Trishm:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I would say we should look at the original article and draw from that. That one appears to refer to "practices;" I don't recall if UK English says "practises" or "practices," but that may be a start.  Failing that, you may need to go through versions after the first one until you hit a version with a distinctly UK or American (or other) spelling style, after which I believe the article should stay with that.
 * Septegram 18:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * On a wild hunch, from this bit, "hanging up treacle or syrup coated scones", I would say the original is UK written. In UK English, "practice" is a noun, so you can have "practices" the noun. "He practises practices.". Maybe we need to see what the next decider is? Skittle 00:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Good points. Furthermore, the original also refers to "ducking for apples."  My entire US life I have never heard this expression; AFAIK the term in the US is "bobbing for apples."  So let's guess that the original was written by someone using UK English, and go from there.
 * Septegram 04:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I think we have a consensus. UK English it is. Trishm 12:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Halloween traditions with Halloween

 * Oppose: Halloween article is becoming large and is a general introduction. Halloween traditions treats certain aspects of Halloween in depth. --24.173.196.83 03:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It's my understanding that the Halloween traditions article is a spin-off from this article, as this article was already very long and it made more sense to start a second article than expand this one further. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 03:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The article Halloween should have a concise version of Halloween traditions, under the standard Main article... heading, which I'll give it now. The article Halloween traditions needs to incorporate the fully-detailed present version of the "Halloween around the world" subheading here, which should be condensed to a precis. The urge to merge stems from fuzzy distinctions between the present articles. --Wetman 13:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved from category page
I found this text on the category page for Category:Christian legend and folklore. If anyone knows where it came from or where it would fit, feel free to put it somewhere else. Cheers! Her Pegship  (tis herself) 21:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Halloween
In Lebanon and the ME, Halloween is St. Barbara day, a popular event, observed on December 4th. Children get disguised and go from door to door with chants and riddles for treats. Traditional sweet treats include aawemet, atayef, maacaroon and amhiyyi. One story for the diguise is because St. Barbara had to disguise herself while attempting to flee her father. Another story for the disguise and chants is that as St. Barbara traveled in disguise and to avoid persecution, she went door to door performing chants for treats from generous homes.

St. Barbara was a beautiful maiden imprisoned in a high tower by her father Dioscorus for disobedience. While there, she was tutored by philosphers, orators and poets. From them she learned to think, and decided that polytheism was nonsense. With the help of Origen and Valentinian, she converted to Christianity.

Her father denounced her to the local authorities for her faith, and they ordered him to kill her. She escaped, but he caught her, dragged her home by her hair, tortured her, and killed her. He was immediately struck by lightning, or according to some sources, fire from heaven.

Her imprisonment led to her association with towers, then the construction and maintenance of them, then to their military uses. The lightning that avenged her murder led to asking her protection against fire and lightning, and her patronage of firefighters, etc. Her association with things military and with death that falls from the sky led to her patronage of all things related to artillery, and her image graced powder magazines and arsenals for years. One of the Fourteen Holy Helpers.

While there were undoubtedly beautiful converts named Barbara, this saint is legend, and her cultus developed when pious fiction was mistaken for history.

Her memorial is December 4th.

Scotland and Ireland
I just wanted to suggest a correction to the article, without typing it, so the admin wouldn't think I was just vandalizing Wikipedia. Scottish and Irish Gaelic while having the same root, are widely different. You go to Ireland speaking Scottish Gaelic, you probably won't get anywhere, and vice versa.

Also. Scottish and Irish culture aren't the same either. It's offensive to Scots to suggest they are, as the Scots and the Irish are ancient rivals. — 72.38.160.31 20:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Ancient rivals are we? That's why Scotland is named after an Irish tribe and Ullins is the same as Lowland Scots. Instead of rivalry, we've always been more likely to find common ground - even if that has just been a common grudge against our real rivals (I'm sure you know who they are) 195.153.45.54 11:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The Legend of Sleepy Hollow
This article currently claims that Halloween is featured prominently in the story "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow." In fact, the holiday is never mentioned in the story, and would have been unlikely to be celebrated by Dutch Americans in the late 1700s. — Walloon 12:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Hallocan.JPG
This image is currently listed in the article with the caption "A Halloween party at a Canadian law school." The caption had earlier been, "Halloween party at a Canadian law school: everybody tries to turn up in a costume. Here, there is 'Einstein', 'Medusa', and a construction worker whose skull has been pierced with a brick. Clearly pictured also is an image of a guest in Australian test cricket uniform - perhaps reflecting the repeated death of the career of Shane Warne due to scandal."

I removed most of the earlier caption in favor of the much shorter version, since the previous version was almost entirely conjecture and grossly violated NPOV. As I was looking over the article again, I felt that the image was irrelevant, unencyclopaedic and was simply added as a decorative vanity. I removed it, but another editor has disagreed with this removal. Instead of edit warring, I thought I was leave this message and see what the consensus is. Cumulus Clouds 05:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know who put the previous caption, but that is irrelevant. The question is whether image is relevant. It is, as the current caption explains it. The allegation of "decorative vanity" is perfectly unsubstantiated. Chensiyuan 06:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It is substantiated within the context of WP:COI, WP:SOAP and WP:NOT #4. There is no good encyclopaedic reason to maintain that picture there since it has only a tenuous, geographical relevance to the paragraph it's placed in (and that relevance is not illustrated within the context of the picture itself). Since the people within the picture also aren't notable, either in this article or elsewhere on Wikipedia, I can find no good reason to keep this picture in this article. Cumulus Clouds 06:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You've also apparently readded this picture several times after other editors had eliminated it. What makes this picture notable enough you would revert edits from several people to maintain it in this article? Cumulus Clouds 06:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You have serious credibility issues. "Other editors" you speak of is one person - whom, without anybody putting too fine a point on it, has been blocked numerous times, and suspected of sockpuppetry. You provide a trio of WP policies of which I see no application to this case at hand. Stop throwing random policies without applying them to the case. If your reasoning hitherto is sustainable, almost all the pictures in the article are redundant. Chensiyuan 08:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, WP:NOT explains that Wikipedia is not a repository for pictures that do not enhance the encyclopaedia. You have not provided an adequate context for using that picture in this article and since it is a group of four people standing in a room wearing costumes, one cannot, with any accuracy, determine whether or not this event took place on Halloween, whether it took place in North America and whether or not it is representative of Halloween traditions in that region. There is an article at Costume parties which you might be interested in posting it too, since it applies directly to that subject. WP:COI describes the policy governing any edits made to an article that might benefit an editor more than the encyclopaedia itself. Since the picture is something you took, and thus were able to release the rights too, it was a party which you ostensibly attended. Therefore, your purpose in adding the picture is not one of purely encyclopaedic nature, but might also be used for self promotion. Since the context of that picture is still unclear, a reasonable person could not say with any accuracy why you decided to put it there or what benefit it would truly have in this article that isn't for purely decorative purposes. Cumulus Clouds 09:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Mister Cumulus Clouds, stop trying to take the moral high ground. It's patently clear that you have been stalking your opponent and tried to secretly remove his images to get back at him after he offended you. So let's set your track record straight. Now, as for the image, before even getting to what is wrong with the party image, let's start with why's it's legit. Are not Halloween parties an aspect of Halloween? Does the picture not depict such a party? This is such an open-and-shut case. Manderiko 08:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay the long and short is -- the picture is for a costume party. Quite clearly. The article talks about costume parties. Chensiyuan 08:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Self-promotion? Promote what? I'm not going to make any more points. I have made my points. Let the others decide. Chensiyuan 09:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Manderikio - the picture is of a costume party. The article is not. Do you think a picture of a turnip would be appropriate here, even if it was uncarved? What if we added the tag "a turnip lantern before carving". We only have the posters word for it that the party was at halloween. We don't know whether it represents all costume parties. Furthermore, costume parties are NOT Halloween and trick-or-treating is not the same as going to a costume party 195.153.45.54 11:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hallowe'en
I looked through the talk page and couldn't find a conversation about this. Should this page not be moved to Hallowe'en, because that's what it's actually called in the OED? As the shortened form of All Hallows Eve, it's just the same as shortening the to t' and to 'n'. As I say, I've looked throught the archives, but I'd be surprised if this hasn't been discussed before. BertieBasset 01:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence. — Walloon 03:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * you're right about the apostrophe. Chensiyuan 12:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. In the U.S. Halloween in the standard usage, and the page has not been moved since creation, so it is likely it was always located at "Halloween". We should not change this unnecessarily, then. --Eyrian 16:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not advocating the "move page", only the part pertaining to the apostrophe. Chensiyuan 00:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest simply adding "Hallowe'en" as an alternative spelling in the lede. Benjiboi 22:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)