Talk:Halloween/Archive 2

Reorganisation required?
Reading this very interesting article and the forthright discussion for the first time, I can see a lot of sweat and compromise has gone into it. As a result, it feels very "bitty" and needs to be reorganised. It would be helpful if the American tradition (trick and treat) were kept separate from the insular European origins - and perhaps logically the Scottish/Irish customs should take priority? (I don't mean they're more important - just that they come first chronologically!) I would start with a very short overview statement, then go straight into the Celtic origins, then the connection with All Saints Day, then the modern Scottish/Irish tradition, then the development in America and other variants, then (if we absolutely have to) the rejection by the Christian right. Would anyone like to comment on how the Scottish turnips (= Swedes, rutabagas) became pumpkins on the other side of the water? (Presumably just a question of what grows locally?) I notice Hallowe'en (that's the normal spelling where I come from!) is becoming popular among children in Germany, who have picked up the American version from the occupying forces. This is much to the chagrin of those who fear that the traditional German St. Martin's Day festival, celebrated around the same time, which also involves children parading round the streets with lanterns, is being lost as a result. Whether that's worth noting as a postscript, I don't know. Anyway, anyone want to take this on? --Doric Loon 08:39, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I grew up in Scotland in the 1930's and I can honestly say that I never heard or saw Halloween being celebrated then. As far as I'm concerned it's really an Irish thing that spread to North America with Irish immigrants and has come over hear to Britain in the last few decades.  Maybe we canny Scots are trying to be associated with a good thing.


 * "Clean-up" operations sometimes "lose" bits of information. I'll make sure that doesn't happen. --Wetman 21:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Halloween as we know it today in Scotland was brought over here to Scotland by Catholic Irish immigrants in the 19th centuary. The Church of Scotland frowned at such a festible. My parents cannot remember Halloween being actively celebrated here, it's not really Scottish at all. 86.40.7.202 02:05, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate external link
I have put back the link to animatedhalloween.com. This site features "safety tips" for both children and parents. It is appropriate material for the enyclopedia as with the holiday come certain dangers. Please do not remove this public message.
 * Wikipedia is not an open forum; so-called "public messages" tend to be removed if not useful. If there is evidence of trick-or-treating being dangerous (and I don't dispute it either way), please do edit the article to add factual information - and remember to cite your sources. Rob Church Talk 10:56, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This editor, was spamming links over a number of pages, often with blatant advertising text on them. I've removed this one as with all the others, whether it be called a "public message" or not. Shimgray | talk | 01:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Inappropiate Content
I remove a reference in the first paragraph about how Michael Jackson enjoys dressing up on Halloween with children. I'm not saying it wasn't funny, just not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
 * That was vandalism. Rob Church Talk 10:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Candy vs. Caramel Apples
I think that under the Foods section you should include caramel apples with candy apples. they are the more common variety in many parts of the U.S. and Canada, particularly the midwest.

The (foods) Part (of this article) Uses (has) an abnormal amount (too much) brackets (
Can somebody please make the foods part readable again? Superdude99 11:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Anoka, MN Halloween capital of the world?
Salem, MA makes the same assertation (or used to), and has a little more of a reasonable background for it.


 * Anoka, Minnesota does claim to be the Halloween capitol of the world, with two parades (one on Friday involving costumed school children, and another on Saturday with fire trucks, marching bands, floats, etc). From what I heard growing up there, city leaders decided to make a large public celebration of Halloween to prevent teenaged hooligans from causing trouble.  This was in the 1910's - 1930's somewhere I think.  But it is a self-proclamation on the city's part, and could be contested I suppose. -- BlueCanoe 23:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The official website of Anoka's Halloween celebration talks about the history of the holiday in Anoka: "Anoka, Minnesota is believed to be the first city in the United States to put on a Halloween celebration to divert its youngsters from Halloween pranks. In 1920, George Green and other Anoka civic leaders suggested the idea of a giant celebration." -- BlueCanoe 00:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

the Anoka City website also states that there was a proclaimation made at the U.S. Capitol, I don't believe Salem, MA has ever done as such.. and despite their "witchcraft" history (which was really more of a societal issue and not exclusive to Salem, MA) there's is a self-proclaimation aswell.

Celtic Samhain's Bonfires
User:83.70.253.133 edit removing "sacrificial" indicates ceremonial bonfires were not sacrificial. Some story tellers indicate bonfires were sacrificial - the burning of crops and animals. Does anyone have historical info. to support this? Ariele 02:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed that (s) word for 2 reasons. Some contributors are going back far too far into historic mists of time. Never heard of "sacrificial" bonfires in Ireland, in any case the Brehon laws proscribed any such practices, and the Brehon Laws are about 2000 years old. Secondly, better to leave out such a frightful reference unless absolutely sure, one never knows what impressionable young person might be reading such notions. To me, Halloween was always a fun night out for children and young teenagers.83.70.40.121 21:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Australia & NZ - we celebrate it?
Whats the official consensus- do we participate in this halloween? Sure, we all know about it, but I've only ever seen two kids EVER actually going around houses, in costume, asking for lollies (in suburban Brisbane, Australia, anyhow). Opinion? --Rilstix 12:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes we do, but not all over Australia (not sure about NZ)...but us aussies sure do! In Adelaide, every so often they have a festivle that features dark attractions, jack-o-lantens ect, not sure if it still happens but they had it in on Halloween 2001, 2002 and 2003. You won't see as many houses decorated for the event in every suburb, but still I've seen various houses decorated for the event and occasionly on Halloween people have arrived at my house for lollies and treats dressed up and on cable they have horror movie marathons on the movie channels every Halloween. So it's safe to say it is celebrated here in OZ, but not as much as the U.S. and Canada. Regards Jackp 14:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it is celebrated in NZ at the same level as Australia celebrates it.--James Bond 03:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy of entry
I would like to contest the overall content of this page. If my child were to use this reference page for a bibliographical entry on a paper he/she were writing for their school the biased and incomplete information presented here would be a poor reference point for a complete and accurate representation of All Hallow's Eve, Halloween, Samhain, All Saint's Day, or Dia de la Muertos. There appear to be enough folks here already editing this entry that one more hand in the pie could only make it worse and not better.

I originally did a search on All Hallow's Eve from the Wikipedia home page and got zero results.

Please refer to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7280/samhain.html for a more accurate representation (no, it is not my site).

Thank you.

Roboho 12:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with your sentiment. There are a lot of people adding to this page who don't understand the true traditions of Halloween, Hallow Eve.  One would go blue in the face trying to correct these notions and errors and false claims.


 * We tried the site which you referenced but it is down for the moment. I personally think this article suits its purpose.  Halloween is afterall a cultural infusion of past (historical) beliefs - some funny and full of trickery and others; not so cute.  Ariele 14:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * What's the whole point of Wikipedia.org if accuracy doesn't matter. I agree it's a fun thing, and especially for younger folks as it traditionally was.

"Norse Hallowen"
I really want to say that the segment in this article about Halloween in norse traditions is complete and utter nonsense. Halloween / Samhain has absolutely nothing to do with norse traditions WHATSOEVER. The equivalent to Halloween / Samhain in norse traditions is called åsgårdsreia and occurs during yuletide. The american Halloween tradition has now almost obliterated our own traditions of Julebukk (somewhat similar to trick or treat). Again, I want to strongly suggest the connection to norse traditions be left out. For refences, see a Norwegian encyclopaedia (which also shows pictures of our now almost lost traditions, thanks to the "commercial Halloween"): http://www.caplex.no/web/Magazine.aspx?id=Juletid SWA 19:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Celts v Norse
Most refer to Samhain (the original, not the modern) as being Celtic. It shouldn't need to be said that there is a difference. Also, the link to the Norwegian encyclopedia is, well, in Norwegian. It doesn't make a good reference on this predominently English wiki

Protection
Why has this page been protected? Could an admin please unprotect it.
 * In all likelihood, it's because it is Halloween today, and well-intentioned guests (and Wikipedians) with a little too much time of their hands might try a few tricks. LD 21:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

More on the Norse stuff
I have never came across anything linking the elf blot to Halloween traditions in my readings about Norse myth and tradition, not in my (admittedly less extensive) meetings with Scandinavian neo-asatru people, and the American asatru sites doesn't seem to do any linking between the two either. And it's not mentioned in History and folklore of Halloween that the section refers to as its main article. I'm going to edit this part unless someone can pull up a good source linking old Norse beliefs and Halloween. Amphis 02:57, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Halloween observances as a "proof' of the Biblical Deluge!
Yes, folks you read it in Wikipedia:
 * Similar festivals of the dead have been found in native cultures widely separated by time and geography. These have been theoretically linked to the events of the Deluge of the Biblical book of Genesis. Source material: the book "The Worship of the Dead", by Colonel J. Garnier, published in London in 1904.

Too silly to struggle over --Wetman 02:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's probably good for a mention on the Bad Jokes and Deleted Nonsense (or whatever it is called) page. DreamGuy 05:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Request for comments.
Does anyone object to an extensive revision of this portion of the article in order to make it reflect actual data rather than kids' legends and/or 'folk knowledge'? These sentences are full of errors and oversimplifications.

"''In Great Britain and Ireland in particular, the pagan Celts celebrated the Day of the Dead on All Hallows Day (1st November). The spirits supposedly rose from the dead and, in order to attract them, food was left on the doors. To scare off the evil spirits, the Celts wore masks. When the Romans invaded Britain, they embellished the tradition with their own, which is both a celebration of the harvest and of honoring the dead. Very much later, these traditions were transported to the United States and Canada and other places in the New World.

Halloween is sometimes associated with the occult. Many European cultural traditions hold that Halloween is one of the "liminal" times of the year when the spirit world can make contact with the natural world and when magic is most potent (see, for example, Catalan mythology about witches).''"

→  P . Mac Uidhir  (t)  (c)  10:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sources would be good for either side, but keep in mind that there are plenty of so-called 'errors and oversimplifications" that turn out to be incorrect themselves. At least if we have cites we can figure out which POV source is saying what. DreamGuy 16:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Good thoughts. I like that approach.
 * →  P . Mac Uidhir  (t)  (c)  22:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)