Talk:Halloween/Archive 3

Hallowe'en Celebrations
It doesn't seem like the article mentions other Hallowe'en celebrations besides trick or treating.

What about Hallowe'en parties for almost everyone who is too old to go trick-or-treating?

Every Hallowe'en there is usually plenty of night clubs that have Hallowe'en themed nights (often on the closest Fri. or Sat. to the 31st).

I think we should add that in.

Drdestiny77 12:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The infobox/template
Anyone else think the holiday box at the top of the article looks, well, ugly? I admit it's at least slightly more useful than many infoboxes people are trying to cram onto articles, but geez does it look rather poorly put togther. Think it's the bright orange in certain spots bumping up against the orange photo and the just boxy nature of it and ugh. DreamGuy 02:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

What was Walloon's latest edit?
I was looking at the diff for Walloon's latest edit, but don't see what's changed. Am I being blind here? - Piquan 22:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He removed some double spaces after periods and changed a couple hyphens into em dashes. --Pascal666 00:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

removed pumpkin pic under "Symbols" heading
There were two images under 'Symbols'; a jack-o-lantern and this one:



I removed this one from the page because, although it's a cool photo, pumpkins aren't really symbols of Halloween, but rather the raw material from which a common symbol of Halloween is carved. And, of the two photos (which together sort of mess up the layout), this one seemed the less-relevant.

If someone wants to add it to the page for 'pumpkins', though, you have my support. --Andymussell 01:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Hallowe'en in Oz?
I've grown up in two states in Australia and I have never seen kids going around asking for candy, nor have I seen anyone make pumpkin lantens. I think the consensus in Australia is that we know it exists, but we are quite passive when it comes to observing it.

Not all that passive when it comes to Halloween and Aussies, I've awnserd this...but will repeat it:

Well, yes we do (it is also called DANGER NIGHT in OZ), but not all over Australia (not sure about NZ)...but us aussies sure do! In Adelaide, every so often they have a festivle that features dark attractions, jack-o-lantens ect, not sure if it still happens but they had it in on Halloween 2001, 2002 and 2003. You won't see as many houses decorated for the event in every suburb, but still I've seen various houses decorated for the event and occasionly on Halloween people have arrived at my house for lollies and treats dressed up and on cable they have horror movie marathons on the movie channels every Halloween, I've also seen a few retail shops with signs that say "Halloween Red Hot Sales" (especially in thrift stores, such as cheap as chips). So it's safe to say it is celebrated here in OZ, but not as much as the U.S. and Canada. Since it's becoming more popular in the country, maybe in this article it could mention something about Halloween and how it has recently grown bigger in Australia. Here are a few websites that sums most of it up:


 * 
 * 
 * 

Regards Jackp 14:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * While I'll grant that Hallowe'en is celebrated in Australia, Where in Australia is it called "Danger Night"? I've never heard it called that and consider myself reasonably well versed in local customs at least. --Brother William 06:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Pumpkins
Are there any special pumpkins you need to create a jack-o-lanten. The ones I see in supermarkets are mostly a green colour, is there some sort of special pumpkin, I'm not from the U.S. and don't know too much about it. Jackp 15:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Pumpkins in North America have almost always been orange. A green pumpkin is unripe. How to ripen a green pumpkin. — Walloon 16:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, the reason I was thinking they where green was because they where just out of season at the time I saw them in my local supermarket. Jackp 04:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As Walloon said, orange is typical in the USA--usually the biggest ones you can manage. Little ones are usually better for cooking--much tastier than the big orange pumpkins in the USA.  There are pumpkin varieties that are green when ripe enough to eat, so that might be what you're running into.Dogface 15:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Halloween in Canada
How often is it celebrated in Canada? Is it as much as the US, and what are some of the superstions in the country?? Jackp 04:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Short answer: Halloween is always celebrated in Canada, as much as in the US (and celebrated in the same ways). It's definitely a bid deal here.

Specifically:

Children going door-to-door are extremely common (most neighborhoods are full of kids on Halloween), Halloween parties are held in many forms (parties held at people's homes, office Halloween parties, as well Halloween events at night clubs.), decorations are on many many houses and businesses. There may be Halloween events organized by city, retailers have hordes of Halloween related merchandise, Halloween themed movies are played on TV, etc.. People lighting fireworks is common as well. Getting a pumpkin and carving it a very common halloween tradition, which are displayed outside houses everywhere.

Drdestiny7 11:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Died out?
Someone said in a previous post that Halloween has faded out in some parts of Britain or something? Is this true, and is it still popular in the UK, I'm really curious. Jackp 04:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Untrue though 'trick or treating' is rather rare these days as parents don't like letting their children knock on strangers' doors.GordyB 13:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jfp-24 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 2006 August 18 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, that is something similar to Halloween here in Australia, although trick or treating is increasing in popularity now here in OZ, instead of dying out.

"Celtic New Year" Factoid
The popular literature over the last century or so has given birth to the near universal assumption that Samhain, now associated with the Roman Catholic theme and folkways of Hallowe'en, was the "Celtic New Year". A number of sources including both the work of scholarly historians and Neopagan writers have begun to place this assertion under the microscope. In his exhaustive study of the folk calendar of the British Isles "Stations of the Sun"(Oxford University Press, 1996), the historian Ronald Hutton points out that there are no references earlier than the 18th century in either church or civic records which attest to this usage. My point here is that although it may be generally correct to refer to Samhain as "Summer's End", this point of descent into the year's darkness may need better proof for us to cite this "end" as also being a "beginning". On the other hand, there -is- a huge volume of proof of the western world, including late Celtia, as having begun their calendars either at the end of December or around March 25th - at various periods far back through and before Medieval times. (added to the main article 7/11/06 byEarrach)


 * I edited this lightly and set it as a sub-subsection with a fresh title. --Wetman 00:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sixpence
"In Scotland... sometimes children would also earn a small amount of cash, usually a sixpence."

Usually a sixpence? Old currency hasn't been used since 1971. This should be changed to something currently more accurate. When I went trick-or-treating, most people would give sweets or a pound coin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amoetodi (talk • contribs) 16:46, 2006 July 18 (UTC)

Removed

 * "It is common for the Irish police force (the gardai) to confiscate the fireworks and use them for themselves." Unnecessarily contentious and uninformative.
 * "USA" is not required, especially when a city is linked*Edited "Factoid" subsection. --Wetman 23:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Mischief night
This redirects to this page. In parts of Yorkshire (e.g. Harrogate, Leeds, Bradford) there is a separate mischief night celebration that IIRC is on the day after Halloween. It's basically trick or treat without the treat in the middle class areas and an excuse to throw fireworks at the police in rougher parts. The rest of the country has never heard of it, even Middlesborough does not have a mischief night.GordyB 13:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooops I got the date wrong, it is 4 November, I suggest that the redirect is removed and a seperate mischief night article is created. Linkies, . GordyB 13:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Tell that to the guys that wrecked my house last mischief night >.< - Guy from middlesbrough

Halloween in North America
I added more information to this section that covers the United States as a whole as well as how Halloween has become more profitable for retailers in recent years. This section only had info for a few cities in the U.S. I Also changed the title to Halloween in the United States as this section gives no info on Halloween for Canada and Mexico.Lobot72 01:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

19th-century America
Whatever the objection "wrong sense to halloween in USA" means, the paragraph about how Halloween was celebrated in 19th-century America is not an opinion, it is historical fact. If sources are called for, numerous sources can be provided to back up each fact. — Walloon 20:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A lot of poppycock here. You claim that it vas viewed as a national holiday by some groups, laughable.  Reading poetry?  What next? Music choirs? Whe whole paragraph is unreal. Witchclaw 20:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have an article from the Milwaukee Sentinel describing a Halloween dinner given by a Scottish-American society in the 1870s, at which indeed Robert Burns' poem "Hallowe'en" was recited. Historian Nicholas Rogers writes in his book Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night (Oxford University Press), pp. 50-52,
 * There were efforts, in fact, to recast Halloween as a day of decorous ethnic celebration. The impetus behind this in Canada came from the well-heeled Caledonian Society. Founded in 1855 by members of the Scottish-Canadian elite, many of whom were well-placed in business and higher education, this society observed Halloween with an annual concert of Highland reels, jigs, ballads, and the poems of Robert Burns. As a guest speaker remarked at the 1885 Montreal meeting, "we are not divining the future, or burning nuts, or catching the 'snap apple,' but [we are] celebrating Scottishness." . . ..


 * In New York City, the Irish National League held a Halloween ball at the Lexington Avenue opera house in 1887, while a branch of the Gaelic Society on West 28th Street held a seannches, that is, an evening of poetry and music, the same year. North of the border, Orangemen also celebrated Halloween with concerts and balls. . ..


 * Philadelphia, which had a sizeable Irish population in the nineteenth century, was also home to a variety of Halloween celebrations. In the 1860s, the curious could venture to Mrs. Drew's New Arch Street Theatre to hear storyteller Barney Williams entertain them with "those legendary dreams of Old Ireland." . . ..


 * Because of the peculiarities of newspaper reporting, we know less about the family side of Halloween in the nineteenth century than we do about its public face at balls and concerts. But it is clear that Halloween was being adapted to the urban milieu of North America, in which a conspicuous minority of Irish immigrants congregated. Judging from the accounts in the New York Herald, "fireside games" abounded, with Scottish and Irish immigrants humorously reenacting the contests and fortune-telling of their forebears. ..
 * —Walloon 21:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't doubt your research, but these are incidental, more for a broad book on the subject.Witchclaw 21:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a people occasion, it's not for societies. Keep it with the people, and away from the vain please! Witchclaw 22:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Your statement is absurd. Societies ARE people.  People exist WITHIN societies.Dogface 15:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

My factual assertion is that Halloween in 19th-century America was celebrated mainly in three ways: 1) events held by Scottish-American and Irish-American societies, 2) home parties centered on children's games, 3) pranks and mischief. I have given documentation to support the first two of those assertions (and can give multiple sources of documentation for the third assertion). You seem particularly determined to remove #1, although I have given documentation above. If you have better primary documentation on how Halloween was celebrated in 19th-century America than what historians Rogers and Skal provide, especially documentation that refutes those three points, please present it. — Walloon 22:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)




 * 1) Halloween is a people thing.
 * 2) Halloween is not a society thing.
 * 3) Halloween was not celebrated in Scotland from about 16000 until the 20th century, although it was noted on the calender as 31st of Oct. It would have been introduced to Scotland by the Irish Dal Riada about 550 AD.

I am only trying to re-edit your edits to a more factual article, that's all. Witchclaw 23:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Your statement is absurd. Societies ARE people.  People exist WITHIN societies.Dogface 15:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "Halloween is a people thing" and "Halloween is not a society thing" are opinions, not factual assertions. Scottish-American and Irish-American societies were groups of people, not robots. Some of the best primary documentation we have of how Halloween was celebrated in 19th-century America are accounts of how those societies celebrated it. Halloween was not a widespread holiday in America before the 20th century. Trick-or-treating did not yet exist in form or name in America, and evidence that people wore masks or costumes on Halloween before 1900 is scarce. What Halloween celebrations there were in the 19th century fall into those three broad categories I named. Whether Halloween was widely celebrated or not in Scotland between the 17th and 20th centuries (I agree with you that it was not), is not relevant in a section on Scottish-Americans, who did indeed celebrate Halloween in America in the 19th century. If you have better primary documentation on how Halloween was celebrated in 19th-century America than what historians Rogers and Skal provide, especially documentation that refutes those three points, please present it. — Walloon 23:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)