Talk:Halloween/Archive 4

"Bonaire" section changed to "Caribbean"
I have noticed a user has added a Bonaire section to this article, which is WAY too narrow (Bonaire is a Caribbean island with under 50,000 people). I think Halloween customs would not vary to that great of an extent from island to island, so I guess we could broaden it to "Caribbean", which is slightly more professional. Badlands17 03:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, that wouldn't work. There's more diversity in the Caribbean than you give us credit for. I know that here in St. Vincent we definitely don't do what they do in Bonaire. In fact, it seems that the Guy Fawkes celebrations dominate the English-speaking Caribbean with the celebration of Halloween depending in those places on the level of American influence. I added a sub-section on Halloween in the Caribbean (before reading what you said here, actually). Perhaps the part on Bonaire can be included as a pargraph under that subsection. ~ Hairouna 22:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Food and masks
I have deleted this passage:
 * In Great Britain and Ireland in particular, the pagan Celts celebrated the Day of the Dead on All Hallows Day (1st November). The spirits supposedly rose from the dead and, in order to attract them, food was left on the doors. To scare off the evil spirits, the Celts wore masks. When the Romans invaded Great Britain, they embellished the tradition with their own, which is both a celebration of the harvest and of honoring the dead. Very much later, these traditions were transported to the United States, Canada and Australia.

The first and last sentences are redundant to text already in the article. And the assertions that the pagan Celts wore masks and left food at the door just are not supported by scholarship, although those claims appear often (without documentation) in popular histories of Halloween. — Walloon 19:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Halloween traditions
This is the more substantive and notable article so is suggested as the recipient of any additional material not already present. The merge should be discussed below. There is a proposal to split the source article a list and to merge the remainder here. Fiddle Faddle 07:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Template removed and the issue is resolved for now. See Halloween traditions talk page for more. --The Argonaut 11:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Link "reduction"
User:SiobhanHansa has "trimmed down list in keeping with external links guidlines" according to the User's edit summary. In the wholesale "trimming" of national and local customs, two far from mainstream christianist links have been retained. Rather than restore the censored links myself, I merely draw this action to users' attention. --Wetman 02:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Halloween in the 1960s Ireland
Wow! Didn't know Halloween was controversial! So a PERSONAL recollection: I grew up in Dublin in the 1960’s. By that time dressing up and going door to door was widespread; Halloween was a major event.

Bonfires were lit on Halloween; Guy Fawkes was almost unknown, except that in the British ‘comics’ (Beano, Dandy etc) which we all read as kids, the 5th November was the big night; the British equivalent of Ireland's Halloween. .

The phrase "trick or treat" was unknown, but "have you got any apples or nuts" was used instead. Apple bobbing, barm brack with the peas, rag, ring, cloth and wood was part of the fare; as was "colcannon"; a mixture of mashed boiled potatoes and green curley kale which was embedded with coins wrapped in paper; this was served at dinner time (as the midday lunch was called).

All the modern stuff, the masks, fireworks, bonfires, dressing up etcetera was part of the event.

PUMPKINS were unknown; but we carved TURNIPS in exactly the same style.

But I must say my firm recollection was that Halloween was not celebrated in England; rather it was Bonfire Night (Guy Fawkes) that was the big event over there. — Sarah777 16:51, 23 September 2006


 * Very interesting! Thanks for the first-hand information. — Walloon 05:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, I agree with that rendition about Dublin. Well,I can go back to the 1950's in Dublin.  I remember the kids powdering their faces white, and around their eyes black, just to look spooky. Then masks started becoming more popular from the early 60's onwards.  It was more of a kids thing then.  It was a sort of becoming of age thing, the only night of the year where the parents allowed the kids to indulge in freedom, and the kids reveled in it. My English cousins did not celebrate it, but celebrated Nov6, in burning the Guy. My mother, who is 94 remembers it being celebrated in western Ireland. Snap apple, picking up coins from a watery-plate with the mouth, bobbing apples etc.  The local boys would light great bonfires, that was about 1920 or so. 86.42.141.109 22:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes Night
Mentioning Guy Fawkes Night celebrations is not totally inappropriate in the section about Halloween in the U.K. It occurs on the calendar close to Halloween, and the traditions, especially in the lighting of bonfires, are similar to the old Halloween traditions. The existence of Guy Fawkes Night helps explain why Halloween was little observed in England from the 17th to the 20th century. (The de-emphasis of All Saints Day after the English Reformation being the other main reason.) — Walloon 21:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Walloon, I agree with you. Guy Fawkes Night does have a relevance to the main topic, as that is the big night in Great Britain when effigies of the Roman Catholic conspirator Guy Fawkes is ceremoniously burned in these fires. Although Irish communities in England, Scotland and Wales continued to mark Halloween, whether it was celebrated in Britain pre 17th century is questionable. 86.42.146.19 13:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

"Guy Fawkes' Night" was a political revamp of a much older tradition. "Bonfire Night" dates back to before the English people arrived in Britain - as such it has nothing to do with the souls of ancestors - it was originally intended to ask the deities to ensure the health and abundance of livestock and to appease the spirits of slain beasts. The bones of animals were burned on large fires in sacred places. However, it is patently useless to point this out as any correction from a British user is treated like the arrival of a leper at a wedding feast. — ghosttracker

Ignorance, prejudice - Do people even research their facts when commenting on other nationalities' culture??
This is not aimed at everyone at wikipedia and there are some excellent articles but please understand my anger and annoyance which will soon become clear.

There is a lot of confusion, inaccurate and unresearched 'facts' on Halloween in this article. Some bordering on the absolutely absurd.

First off; Halloween was celebrated throughout the UK, not just originally Ireland. The ancient Brits were a celtic people if you do your research, many survived the invasions of the Roman, Anglo Saxon and viking invasions as celtic archaeology and carbon dating has prooved and even though Christianity was brought over to the UK by Irish monks (oh the irony), pagan worship was not wiped out of the UK and never has been. Halloween has been celebrated for hundreds and hundreds of years in England, there is enough documents throughout the ages detailing this. 'Bobbing for apples' and carving vegatables was originally English customs that occured during Halloween celebrations which dates back many centuries ago. This fact (an actual truthful one) doesn't fit in with Wikipedia's strange and untruthful claim that the English don't celebrate Halloween, that's news to us then what have we be doing on October the 31st for several centuries and then some??

Secondly; 'Bonfire night' or 'Guy Fawkes night' (clue is in the name?) is celebrated on November the Fifth and is about Guy Fawkes attempting to blow up the houses of parliament. It has NOT replaced Halloween and never has done. It is a separate celebration and has nothing to do with Halloween? America has 'Thanks Giving' not that far away from Christmas. If us Brits can differentiate between the Americans celebrating 'Thanks Giving' and Christmas then why is it hard for Americans to differentiate between the English celebrating Halloween and Bonfire night, they may be close together but they're not the same thing.

Thirdly; The English have not only just started to celebrate Halloween in the last decade, and it is not only celebrated in the North of England. This, out of all of the ludicrous comments and claims on this article is the most unbelievable. Where do people get this stuff from, do they just make it up as they go along? It's absolutely crazy and unfounded?? So, according to Wikipedia the English started celebrating Halloween in 1996, when we've been celebrating it since way before the middle ages, before even America had been 'discovered' by Columbus??

If I know very little about other countries' cultures and customs I don't interfere by posting non truths and made up facts to suit political agendas, prejudice and ignorance.I don't understand why non-English people are posting untruthful, unresearched facts about the English and then when someone who actually is English (and has studied English history!) corrects these mistakes and untruths they get their correct entry deleted off and replaced with more 'make believe' comments?

Fourth; Someone has corrected my spelling of faeries. If this individual had done their research they would see that 'faeries' is the Cornish spelling of faires and was not incorrect. Whoever it was could of found that out in less than two seconds by doing a Google search or checking an English website instead of changing it. Cornwall also being where the myth of English children not sitting in a ring of yellow and white flowers came from and it is still spelt that way in Cornwall and most areas of England today. I understand that spelling mistakes and grammer etc need to be corrected and I appreciate it as sometimes I do make mistakes where I have to post fast due to lack of time but when words are edited due to ignorance and prejudice then I quite understandably get annoyed.

Fifth; English children have been dressing up for Halloween since the middle ages, they did not collect sweets but bread, apples and sometimes if they were lucky toffee due to the fact that the English folk were peasants, Yeomen (farmers), blacksmiths etc and weren't the rich 'evil' landowners that the English have been portrayed to be thanks to Hollywood but again it's only the Scottish and the Irish according to some of the Wikipedia folk. (What about the Welsh??)

And lastly, why are people allowed to post things that are not true and has not been researched about England's Halloween and when anyone English who actually knows the actual fact corrects it, it gets deleted off?

Is there any point to an inaccurate Wikipedia?? I thought you all strived for an accurate encyclopedia, all I've read is prejudice and unresearched facts?

I apologize if my rant has offended anyone, my comments are not aimed at everyone nor Wikipedia as a whole, and as I said in the beginning there are some fantastic writers here and some fantastic articles. It's just a shame it's spoilt by an ignorant few that can't be bothered to do their research instead of posting whatever pops into their heads or suits their political agendas?

I will continue to correct the mistakes concerning the English and Halloween, no matter how many times it's changed back to the lies and 'can't be bothered to check if it's 'accurate' comments by the 'I hate the English' brigade.

I will keep on doing it. The Green Dragon 00:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You wrote, "'Bobbing for apples' and carving pumpkins was originally English customs that occured during Halloween celebrations which dates back many centuries ago." Pumpkins are native to the Americas, not Britain. Carved vegetable lanterns (like pumpkins) were first called "jack-o'-lanterns" in North America, not Britain. And as historian David J. Skal writes in Death Makes a Holiday: A Cultural History of Halloween,
 * Although every modern chronicle of the holiday repeats the claim that vegetable lanterns were a time-honored component of Halloween celebrations in the British Isles, none gives any primary documentation. In fact, none of the major nineteenth-century chronicles of British holidays and folk customs make any mention whatsoever of carved lanterns in connection with Halloween. Neither do any of the standard works of the early twentieth century.
 * You write that "English children have been dressing up for Halloween since the middle ages." Can you supply any pre-twentieth century source that claims that English children have been dressing up for Halloween? — Walloon 01:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I know from personal experience that Halloween was not celebrated in England in the 1960's. Green Dragon, you claim that it was always well celebrated in England, well why did it not travel to North America with English colonists, or even to Australia with English colonists.  In my experience, it is becoming popular in England this last 10 years or so.  A study of archive newspapers dated circa 31st October should give some telling results whether it was as popular in England as you say it was. You will reach a blank as Britain is historically a very protestant nation and did not celebrate All Souls Day, or even Oiche Samhain which is a festival in Ireland. 86.42.137.109 20:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC) - Can YOU proove that is has only been celebrated in the last decade (1996???).

Why don't you PROVE that the English has only celebrated Halloween for the last ten years according to you the 'expert' (1996 are you on drugs??). Even Shakespeare mentions Halloween. I've been celebrating it for over 40 years as everyone else has here. Stick to posting about YOUR OWN country not other folks*


 * No rational person has to prove that the English did not do something for centuries. The burden of proof is upon the person making the positive claim.  See also the logical fallacy "Negative proof".Dogface 19:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Bobbing for apples


 * Green Dragon, do NOT delete other people's posts from this page, as you just did to the replies above, or you will be banned from Wikipedia. — Walloon 20:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am NOT the person who wrote 1996. — Walloon 20:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Walloon - my comment wasn't aimed at you but ten years ago/ 'the last decade' was 1996, you do the math? Ban me if you want to silence me, it's not a problem as I have access to many computers at different locations. I'm just sick of Americans writing complete and utter crap about my country (as are many English folks), why don't these people write about their own country, we wouldn't mind if any of it was actually true but usually these people just write crap because they have a hard on for the Irish and because they're either to lazy or thick to write anything truthful. It's funny isn't it more Scottish went to Ireland than the English did and all of this happened long before the Americans kicked out the Native Americans off their land. HYPOCRITES ANYONE?. If it carries on I will wipe the whole of the article off. 82.45.74.211 4:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, how does the Trail of Tears pertain to Holloween at all? I'm a Cherokee that celebrates holloween because it's fun... Americans us off of our land? Oh wow. You know, my friends in the tribe and my friends outside of the tribe, we all seem to concider the ones who, as you put it, "kicked [us] off [our] land" as being the British and other European settlers who kicked us off of our land, not the Americans. I mean, how can we kick ourselves off our own land? For that matter, you can't own land. That is an eastern concept. Oops, did I just call Europe "Eastern"? So we didn't own the land, and the people who kicked us off of it don't own it even today. They're just deluded and think they do. You cannot pick the land up and take it with you, therefore, you cannot own it. This entire line of discussion is absolutely insane and I thought the British had more emotional restraint than this. Then again, with the anonymity of the internet, why should they? 24.254.141.93 22:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC) Lucy

This man is a complete embarrassment, surely the British are not supposed to behave like this?? Anyway we say maths not math, so maybe he is not really British? ;) Sir Hugh 30 October 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.183.158 (talk • contribs)


 * No, you will not. First, because the anti-vandal robot will automatically restore the article, as it has done twice today from your vandalism. And second, because each computer you try to do that from will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.


 * Instead of writing rants here (and presuming you know the nationalities of the article's editors), why not engage in sourcing your claims. If you claim that English children have been masking and costuming on Halloween for centuries, find, list, and quote a pre-1900 source that says so. If you claim that the English have been associating carved vegetable lanterns with Halloween for centuries, find, list, and quote a pre-1900 source that says so. I went through two shelves of books on English and Scottish folk customs, most written by British authors and many written in the 19th century, and none of them mention carved vegetable lanterns in association with Halloween. — Walloon 22:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to appoint regional editors to cover the ways that Halloween is observed in different nations? Those who demand pinpoint references for traditional oral sources of Halloween lore are in danger of being seen as playing semantic games in order to ensure that this entry continues to be a no entry zone to non-Americans.

In this kind of topic, it is logical to differentiate between oral and recorded sources - rather than taking a 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' approach. You may be unable to find carved vegetables etc. in your books, but I grew up in Derbyshire where the practise exists and has existed for so long that its origins are literally lost in the mists of time.

Bonfire (literally 'Bone Fire') Night (later fused with Guy Fawkes Night) rituals first began in Europe before the English came to Britain; they are nothing to do with Halloween.

Referring to the inclusion of native patterns of spelling as 'vandalism' (and removing them) instead of recognising them as potentially valuable insights which might be useful to folklore analysts and other serious researchers is entirely counter-productive.

Whilst it is laudable to aim for high scholarly standards and a 'hands on' approach to editing this entry, the person in charge has (perhaps without being aware of the transformation) merely squeezed out anybody who doesn't accept his views. I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be an open resource for everybody with reasonable input?

Ghosttracker 26th October 2006


 * No one disputes that carved vegetable lanterns have a long history in Britain and Ireland. What is being disputed is the claim that they were associated with Halloween in Britain or Ireland before the 20th century. No British or Irish folklorist of the 19th century or early 20th century mentions any such practice in association with Halloween. — Walloon 18:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because the Americanized version of Halloween has become the dominant one in the English speaking world it doesn't mean it is the only one. Please compare the way in which Coca-Cola's take on Christmas has been laid across various European festive traditions.Junius 11:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I must admit i feel it unfair that what i know is true, to be deemed untrue. Living in Lancashire, England, i remember when i was six or seven years old going to a park in Morecambe. Called Happy Mount Park it hosted, and had hosted for many years a halloween festival. This has now stopped due to the Mr. Blobby scandal when Noel Edmonds took over the land to create Crinkley Bottom. Shortly after opening the park closed as it was a major failure (By the way, this is true, please do not delete it, i know it sounds ridiculous, but it happened! And the residents of Morecambe are 1 million pounds worse off for it.). I am 22 now, so this festival must have happened around the 1980's. I have photographs.

I have also seen my parents photographs, and surprisingly they themselves are surprised to hear that nobody believes halloween occurred in England before the 1980's. They went to trick or treating and my father tought me some of his most mischievous tricks, which in turn his father had taught him.

This must mean that halloween was celebrated in the 1950's. I have no idea if it happened before this.

Halloween is not associated with Bonfire Night, it is hard to find proof to confirm this as nobody in England needs to have proof. It's just been information passed down for 400 years. Bonfire night is to celebrate the saving of the Houses of Parliament. When did politics have anything to do with ghosts and ghouls. Yes, Yes i know Margaret Thathcher, there is an exception to every rule! ;-)

But, seriously, Bonfire night is a 400 year old tradition. And i believe that celebrating halloween is an even older one. Do you know how many women were sent to their deaths in Lancaster, never mind the rest of England, as they were thought to be withches during the middle ages. England's middle or dark ages are a mysterious time, when tradition and folklore boomed, many traditions were created in this time and i see no reason why

I can see why green dragon is annoyed at this, as i am also. I do not presume to know where people originate from, but it is possible that some towns or villages in England do not celebrate Halloween, but some do.

There is no offence intended in this next statement. America is less than 400 years old, a tradition this old does not need proof as it is just passed from generation to generation.

Please can somebody with authoirty change what is said in the England section as it is completely false. Pinster2001 @ 31/10/06
 * Hi, do you have a source for this? We rely on verifiable information, not original research. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * While we're on the subject of righteous indignation, isn't it funny how Europeans are so proud of how they have more history of America and that "America is less than 400 years old"? Hmm... You know, America existed before the Europeans settled here. There were people here before the Europeans settled here. Written history? Um yes, infact, there IS a written history. There are two groups of thought in the Cherokee tribe. One group believes that Sequoya was taught written language by Christian missionaries. The other group believes that the Missionaries are taking false credit, that Sequoya was infact the last person able to read and write the language of the Ani Kutani which were the religious and political elite of the tribe. Wasn't Europe at one time mostly illiterate save for the religious and political elite? Are we to disregard Europe's history prior to literacy being commonplace in Europe? Thee have been many great empires with very civilized systems of government in the Americas over thousands of years. Is it that the only the history in America that means anything the history that starts when the European settlers arrived? I find this assumption of the British and Europeans in general to be exceptionally racist. This assumption of yours, Pinster, reeks of The White Man's Burden. As such, it seems horribly racially biased. 24.254.141.93 22:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC) Lucy


 * How can a person give a source of personal experience. If your friend said to you that she was nearly knocked down yesterday. Would you question it because you didnt see her nearly knocked over, or would you believe her first hand, eye wittness account?? There is very few sources for the entire tradition, as something as trivial as halloween in Britian in the middle ages was probably seen as not worth documenting.


 * What i think Green Draon was trying to say is why wdo Americans believe that Halloween was (for want of a better word) invented in America. IT is a celtic tradition and the British should be allowed to record their section, without people from other cultures vandalising the section.


 * It is unfair that what really has happened is not being aired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinster2001 (talk • contribs)


 * Hi, Pinster2001, could you have a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/southampton/features/fireworks/halloween.shtml and comment whether this source explains what you mean. Addhoc 17:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's great, it confirms almost everything i was trying to put across. I have been speaking to some older colleagues of mine and they too seem to think that after World War II they couldnt recall as many children dressing up. They said that in the 1980's especially after the release of E.T. the culture of trick or treating boomed. Thanks for finding that for me. It's just unfair when a tradition, part of a lot of heritage and ancestory is mistakenly explained as something it isnt. Pinster2001 @ 1/11/06


 * That's a good source. I remember my parent's telling me about kids dressing up from the 1950's. That source above is a good one, I think the section should definitely be changed. 84.92.168.215 18:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If thats sarcasm there is absolutely no need for it. Pinster2001 13:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is well known as a place where input from British users is censored or trashed. The Native American user might like to reflect that the USA's ethnic cleansing policies had nothing to do with the British - lots of tribal people went North to Canada to live under British rule because they knew that we did not break our treaties. Kipling may have written about "The White Man's Burden" - but he was not a racist, he grew up in India and even dreamed in Hindi - he also wrote other (far less-quoted works) about the responsibility we all have to be fair and unbiased to people from different ethnic origins.

In our wonderful new (politically correct) world, it is no longer possible to attack Blacks, Jews or Asians - but, never mind, Americans can still line up to treat the British with contempt. This entry suffers from an anal fixation with a narrow range of supposedly 'definitive' authors. Not all oral history and tradition has been slavishly recorded; a subject like Halloween is bound to encompass a great deal of lore which falls into the gap between 'catalogued' and 'generally accepted'. Feel free to vent your inferiority complex about being such a young nation - sooner or later you'll get the 'Brit-Free' Wikipedia you so obviously desire. Hitler would be proud of your xenophobia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.166.70 (talk • contribs) 05:37, November 22, 2006 (UTC)

Im wondering why ANYONE would be arguing, or pandering to any moron that would attempt to, that those of Britain havn't celebrated Halloween up until around 10 years ago. This is wikipedia, we do NOT have long dicussions because some asshole decides to argue back because someone takes the sensible road and states common (or in this case, not only is the moron arguing against the OP arguing against common knowledge, but rationality) knowledge. This is NOT a place to start shit over semantics, especially if the person arguing back is completely wrong. If someone states in passing "there are white people in the US" and you argue back "nope, it has no white people in it"...it is EVERYONE ELSES responsibility to shut the moron down and provide evidence to back up the OP. Not ramble on consistantly about such a thing. - Hindera

Colcannon
I mentioned above that the traditional Irish dinner (lunch) on Halloween was "colcannon" and was made with cabbage and potatoes. In fact that should have been green curley cale. You can find the recipe in the photo - try it!

Wrap a few coins in greaseproof paper and serve it up to the kids - be sure to warn then not to swallow any coins....this was the start of the Halloween festivites; dinner being served when we got home from school, about 2.30 in the afternoon.

Nowadays kids don't go to school on Halloween, but get the entire week off; the "Halloween Break"

(I've just spotted there is a Wiki article on "colcannon"; but it doesn't give the recipe.

I'll fix that!!

(Sarah777 12:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC))

UK Celebration Section
im new to wikipedia and im probably not even editing the talk page correctly.. but i just wanted to say thatthe section on celebration in the UK is really disorganized like, each sentence is a separate paragraph about a different tradition and it seems like people just randomly inserted things =D i will try to fix it but im not very good at this.. finisher 23:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)Yeahhyeahyeah

Also, I am from England and have never even *heard* of a 'witch ball', let alone hung one in my window.213.160.122.2 13:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm also from the UK, specifically England, and a) have never heard of these, b) never met anyone who has, c) neither has google.

Searching google for "Witch balls" and "uk only sites" comes back with a staggering 1400 sites:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hs=19D&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&q=%22witch+balls%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB

I'd suggest removing the "witch balls" comment, unless the person who added it is capable of backing up this claim. (after all the comment suggests it's something some who's lived in england all their life would know or would know of *someone* who does. Wikipedia's witch ball page suggests it was perhaps a common thing for rich people in the 18th century. Some traditions don't survive 3 centuries.

Heh, in fact, the only pictures I can find of any witch balls were all taken by people in the US, presumably sold them because they were told that people in England hang them in the windows by people who'd never BEEN to the UK on Hallowe'en. — 132.185.240.120 07:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Review
The Good Article review on this article has been closed, with three in favor of delisting and nobody opposed. At first the concern was the cleanup tag but that seems to of either been resolved or wasn't needed in the first place, but the references are still the big problem, although there are many notes, the majority of sections in this somewhat long articles have absolutly no references at all. Review archived here: Good articles/Disputes/Archive 6 Homestarmy 00:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)